Blameless

Was Job Blameless? (notice: Public vote)

  • Job was NOT blameless therefore, he suffered

  • Job was blameless even though God gave Satan permission to test him.

  • I don't know about Job


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JimfromOhio

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I never said that..I am assuming that your not outside of Jesus Christ and His will for your life consisting of your spirit, soul and body. Satan still goes around roaming the earth seeking who he may devour. You not letting him have access to any of those area's I would hope through the promises of God. My point was Satan already had permission since the fall.
That's what Job's friends said about "being outside God's will" which was why he suffered. Satan do control this sinful world however, he is NOT outside of God's control.

That's the point of this thread.
 
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JimfromOhio

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I agree with you, however, note that Paul still called satan the god of this world long after the crucifixion, ressurection, and ascension of our Lord.

Though Jesus defeated him fully, He left him in power, and gave us command of the occupying forces, the church, His body on earth. Jesus is only in control of what we the church put Him in control of on this earth until His return, the rest of this planet is still under the power of the devil.

He takes poeple captive at will, within the bounds of the Law of Sin and Death, unless we stop him by faith.

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
-2 Timothy 2:26

Peace...

Looking in context, 2 Timothy 2:25-26 basically means that God must give the unsaved "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil." Repentance is the key that only God can perform through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Looking at "and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil" also warns us of false doctrines.
 
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pinetree

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I never said that..I am assuming that your not outside of Jesus Christ and His will for your life consisting of your spirit, soul and body. Satan still goes around roaming the earth seeking who he may devour. You not letting him have access to any of those area's I would hope through the promises of God. My point was Satan already had permission since the fall.
Hi Trish.
This all arises from my post 141.I asked dkbwarrior if a saint dies of a disease,is it the devil that killed him?

dkb said of course.

I did say "saint". A Christian.

So..do you also think if a Christian dies of a disease,it is the devil that took the life?
Thank you.
 
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pinetree

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Psalm 68:20
Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.

Psalm 141:8
But my eyes are fixed on you, O Sovereign LORD; in you I take refuge—do not give me over to death.

Jeremiah 21:8
"Furthermore, tell the people, 'This is what the LORD says: See, I am setting before you the way of life and the way of death.

Before Christ's death, trying to understand what Jesus said to the Pilate during His trial in John 19:11 "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." Which means God have complete control over life and death.

Jesus said clearly about a penny's worth of sparrows compare to us. Matthew 10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. If God can control with those two sparrows, then He will do the same for His creatures around the world including Satan.
:thumbsup:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

other translations say authority.
 
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pinetree

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Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.


Isaiah 45:7 (New International Version)

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.


Who is really in charge?

I say..THE LORD!
 
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pinetree

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Gotta love a property claim!
Isaiah 66:1
This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?


hey,really juat a footstool..:);)
 
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Trish1947

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That's what Job's friends said about "being outside God's will" which was why he suffered. Satan do control this sinful world however, he is NOT outside of God's control.

That's the point of this thread.

No Satan is not out of Gods control, I agree, but what is allowed is Satan is to judge the unbelievers, the faithless, the unregenerate. As Jesus said, the prince of this world is already judged, and they have one that will judge them. The god of this world.
But lets take a look at whats been given to the church.

Isa 54:13And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.
Isa 54:14In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
Isa 54:15Behold, they shall surely gather together, [but] not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
Isa 54:16Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa 54:17No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue [that] shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

I noticed that you quote the old testament alot, so I thought I would throw one in. :amen:
 
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JimfromOhio

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No Satan is not out of Gods control, I agree, but what is allowed by Satan is to judge the unbelievers, the faithless, the unregenerate, As Jesus said the prince of this world is already judged, and they have one that will judge them.
But lets take a look at whats been given to the church.

Isa 54:13And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.
Isa 54:14In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
Isa 54:15Behold, they shall surely gather together, [but] not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
Isa 54:16Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa 54:17No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue [that] shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

I noticed that you quote the old testament alot, so I thought I would throw one in. :amen:

Did you know that in verse 15 "shall surely gather together, (but) not by me" is referring to the hypocrites?
 
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dkbwarrior

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Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Who said the earth deosn't belong to God? Of course it belongs to God, He created it. But explain this:

16The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
-Psalm 115:16

The only way to reconcile these verses is by what Jesus said:

1And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
-Mark 12:1

When I lease a home to someone I give up alot of my rights to that property for a temporary period of time. I can't just show up and change the furniture around, and eat out of the fridge. I need permission from the leasees to enter.

When God leased this earth to Adam, and gave him dominion, a similar thing happened. That is why Jesus used the parable of a lease to explain it.

Isaiah 45:7 (New International Version)
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

You sure do quote alot from the Old Testament, don't you? Of course you have to if you are trying to prove that God is a killer, and in league with satan to temp and try us. That is because the Old Testament is the image of the Law Of Sin And Death, while the New Testament is a revelation of Christ, who is the express image of the Father.

Yes, God created satan, who then fell from his first estate and brought evil into the World. God takes responsibility for that dreation in more than one spot. But that does not mean that God is the author or instigator of evil, murder or lies. That is the devils domain.

Peace...
 
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dkbwarrior

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Now, if Satan has blanket permission and God didn't control His prophesies, what would happen to the Second Coming?

God doesn't need to control His prophecies. Where do you even get these ideas from? God lives outside of time. He is the beginning from the end. He is at the end of all things as certainly and concretely as He is here in the present with us now.

He doesn't have to control His prophecies, He is at the end right now and sees what is going to happen. Don't you get that? Satan operates inside of time, like we do, so he cannot see the end from the beginning. But God created time, it is no obstacle to Him. Don't bother trying to understand it, we cannot comprehend a fourth dimension from the third, any more than a two dimensional drawing can understand a cube. You just have to accept it.

Regarding the second coming of Christ, that is a good question. There is a simple answer however. Every lease is temporary. And when Adams lease ends, then Christ returns, and all power and all authority is delivered back to God, that He may be all in all.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
-1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Peace...
 
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dkbwarrior

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Hi Trish.
This all arises from my post 141.I asked dkbwarrior if a saint dies of a disease,is it the devil that killed him?

dkb said of course.

I did say "saint". A Christian.

So..do you also think if a Christian dies of a disease,it is the devil that took the life?
Thank you.

Of course.

Peace...
 
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JimfromOhio

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God doesn't need to control His prophecies. Where do you even get these ideas from? God lives outside of time. He is the beginning from the end. He is at the end of all things as certainly and concretely as He is here in the present with us now.

He doesn't have to control His prophecies, He is at the end right now and sees what is going to happen. Don't you get that? Satan operates inside of time, like we do, so he cannot see the end from the beginning. But God created time, it is no obstacle to Him. Don't bother trying to understand it, we cannot comprehend a fourth dimension from the third, any more than a two dimensional drawing can understand a cube. You just have to accept it.

Regarding the second coming of Christ, that is a good question. There is a simple answer however. Every lease is temporary. And when Adams lease ends, then Christ returns, and all power and all authority is delivered back to God, that He may be all in all.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
-1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Peace...

To understand how the infinite mind of God can collect, collate, and harmonize every bit of data that exists in the universe and make it all work for His will is beyond our comprehension. To get a small grasp on that reality we need to realize that God rules in the world.

Satan tried to have Peter try to keep Jesus from the cross but God determined that Jesus is to die on the Cross. In Matthew 16, Peter says, “Lord, don’t you do that! Don’t go to the cross!” and Jesus knew the source and said, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” Satan knew the power of the Cross and the Death Penalty by the Government which was established by God. "The authorities that exist have been established by God" (see Romans 13). How did God know that the Roman Government will use the "Cross" for their death penalty?

Satan used Judas and the Jewish leaders to kill Jesus. Satan was hoping that the Jewish people would STONE Jesus to death based on the Jewish Law and Custom. But the Jewish leaders were smart enough not to take the law into their hands and asked the Roman Government to crucify Christ.

There is no more graphic account in all Scripture of God's sovereignty than the death of Jesus Christ. God used every creatures combined to kill His Son. He controlled the hated of the Jewish leaders, the hostility of the Romans toward those leaders, the defection of the disciples, the betrayal of Judas, and the denial of Peter. Jesus came into Jerusalem on the very day Daniel prophesied He would (Dan. 9:25). While the people were selecting their Passover lamb, He came as the true Passover lamb. He died on the very day the Passover lambs were slaughtered. Every single detail was covered. And it was all accomplished by the free choice of evil men and demons. But even that was the work of God.

Psalm 115:3--"Our God is in the heavens; he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."

Psalm 135:6--"Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."

Daniel 4:35--"[God] doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Ephesians 1:11--"[He] worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

There are over three hundred prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testatment. It is certainly reassuring to know that God has ultimate control of history, especially when current events may lead one to conclude otherwise.

We come from the world's setting that is controlled by God that lead to the fulfillment of a Hebrew prophet's statement that He would be born in Bethlehem; all the way down to the circumstances of His birth, His life, His death, His Resurrection and His Future.
 
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Trish1947

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Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.


Isaiah 45:7 (New International Version)

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.


Who is really in charge?

I say..THE LORD!

Living in the old testament will no doubt put you back under the understanding of the law of sin and death. It will give you a distorted view of the Father. It will give you the same view as the old testament people believed about the nature of God, that it was He that was responsible for every diabolical act, responsible for every disease and plague that has visited mankind since the fall. That since God is in control and believed that He orchastrates all activity going on down here on earth, they gave God the credit for everything bad and good. Living in the new testament is a revelation of Jesus Christ, the true and clear image of the nature of God the Father. Did He not say in scripture, that He came to reveal things that have been hidden since the foundation of the world? Things that even the most trusted men of God in the old testament were not privy to, since these things had been hidden since that time. And what would one of those be? That God is good, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the Good Shepard. The One that was going to fulfill the law of God perfectly for us. That Satan is the killer, the thief, the distroyer, the author of sickness and disease since sin entered the world. Adam and Eve sold their birthright from the God of Heaven where none of these things existed in their perfect estate, to the god of this world through sin. Actually no verbal permission was needed..Adam and Eve created the permission through the sin of disobediance. At that time there was only one commandment given... Do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or you shall surely die. Then Satan turns it into a question to Eve, and asks.. Hath God truely said you shall die? You shall not die..Planting doubt and unbelief that what God said was true concerning the very first commandment.
 
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It is amazing how people can use the OT to claim promises as they wish, but if it comes to something they don't want to deal with or can't 'explain', then the OT is not to be used. God does not bless us based on how many scriptures we claim as ours anyway. We are under the new covenant because of the Blood of Christ and scripture is our confirmation of what we already have. Not to be used as some magic portion to manipulate God into moving and doing what we want and how and when we want it. If we are honest, He does not move until HE IS READY ANYWAY. He will not move until HIS TIME and way..and usually not how and when we think and want. When he does move, it is not based on our wants, but HIS alone...and what is best for us and the situation. He is God after all. ( Yes, this is a small little vent.. :o) If the desire of your heart is his desire for that situation, it will be done. If not, it won't be done, and probably not in any particular way you had planned

The same God of the OLD is the same God of the new. His ways do not change, He still takes us through the valley and deserts to learn total dependence on him just as he has always done.

I think if we would not only see God as some suga-daddy, then we can begin to really see God for who he is and that his ways are just not ours and thoughts are just not ours.

God Bless...:)
 
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Strong in Him

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It is amazing how people can use the OT to claim promises as they wish, but if it comes to something they don't want to deal with or can't 'explain', then the OT is not to be used.

:thumbsup: Yes I've noticed that too - and not just in these debates, but elsewhere in the church. In fact, I'd say it's true of Scripture in general; people quote the bits they want to support the point of view they have.
 
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ANM29

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:thumbsup: Yes I've noticed that too - and not just in these debates, but elsewhere in the church. In fact, I'd say it's true of Scripture in general; people quote the bits they want to support the point of view they have.

That is true..The other parts, they don't want anything to do with. Yet so many run around saying, "As long as it lines up with the word"..Well, that is where the differences lie I guess. That is where the divisions in Christianity are made. Honestly, when I really think about it all.,,I think we ALL are right.^_^^_^ Whatever is right and working for you, I guess that is what you do. If you have a relationship with God, and you are spirit-lead, then he will direct you in what you need to do or not do. Well, for me he does anyway.

My walk and journey is not the same as someone else. I guess if someone has to confess certain scriptures to keep up their faith and claim promises, that is what they have to do. I just personally never have nor do I see the need for it. I rest in the finished work of Christ and he leads and directs me and gives me what I need without having to go through all the rituals and formulas that so many have put out there...1,2,3 steps to finding this or knowing that...Just not for me.... I guess it really boils down to your own personal relationship. It just is not something I have ever had to do, and never was comfortable when people would tell me to confess this scripture or that one for a particular situation.

I confessed Christ and all my promises are already in HIM..He is the Word that became Flesh..and because of my relationship and Faith in HIM, his will is going to be done either way. I believe there is a difference in the "Bible" and the "Word of God"..The Word of God is Christ, the word became FLESH.....then there is the "Bible", which is inspired words of God, which is why we have so many different points of views and total confusion in the Body of Christ........IMHO......Now, that is another debate in itself...lol!

Ok, end of sermon... :) Done...( Oh, forgot this was about Job..eek )

Good Morning everyone..:)
 
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dkbwarrior

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It is amazing how people can use the OT to claim promises as they wish, but if it comes to something they don't want to deal with or can't 'explain', then the OT is not to be used. God does not bless us based on how many scriptures we claim as ours anyway. We are under the new covenant because of the Blood of Christ and scripture is our confirmation of what we already have. Not to be used as some magic portion to manipulate God into moving and doing what we want and how and when we want it. If we are honest, He does not move until HE IS READY ANYWAY. He will not move until HIS TIME and way..and usually not how and when we think and want. When he does move, it is not based on our wants, but HIS alone...and what is best for us and the situation. He is God after all. ( Yes, this is a small little vent.. :o) If the desire of your heart is his desire for that situation, it will be done. If not, it won't be done, and probably not in any particular way you had planned

StrongInHim said:
Yes I've noticed that too - and not just in these debates, but elsewhere in the church. In fact, I'd say it's true of Scripture in general; people quote the bits they want to support the point of view they have.

Good observation, both of you. I commend you!

I do discount alot of the Old Testament that is not promises. But I have a scriptural reason for doing so.

Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
-Matthew 5:17

The curse was the consequence of not obeying the law. Because He fulfilled the law for us, He freed us from the curse:

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
-Galatians 3:13

Yet he did not come to fulfil the promises, as he came to fulfil the law; instead, He came to confirm the promises:

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
-Romans 15:8

Confirmation in this context is talking about ratification:

15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
-Galatians 3:15

We confirm or ratify covenants today by a signature. We call them contracts instead of covenants, but they are essentially the same thing. Jesus ratified/confirmed our Covenant in His own blood.

It is for this reason that the law, and the curses of the law no longer are applicable to the christian. Their handwriting has been nailed to the cross with Christ. That was the whole reason for the cross. The part of the Old Covenant that is applicable to us today are the promises.

However, many of those from the other side of these debates discount scriptures from both the Old and the New, whatever does not fit their theology.

The same God of the OLD is the same God of the new. His ways do not change, He still takes us through the valley and deserts to learn total dependence on him just as he has always done.

I think if we would not only see God as some suga-daddy, then we can begin to really see God for who he is and that his ways are just not ours and thoughts are just not ours.

True. He is the same God. But the Old Testament was a revelation of the Law of Sin and Death, the laws of creation that God set in motion at the time that He created this universe. If you define God by the results of the Law of Sin and Death then you will end up attributing to God the nature of satan, because the devil had the power of death:


14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
-Hebrews 2:14

The New Testament is a revelation of The Law of The Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus. If you define God by the results of this law, you discover the true nature of God, love.

That is why Jesus said things like this:

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill...
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother...
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her...
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife...,
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication
33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all...
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil...
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you...
-Matthew 5:21-44 (edited for clarity)

Jesus was basically saying, "Yeah, I know that the Law of Moses says these things, but I am saying this...". That is because Jesus came to reveal the nature of the Father, while the Old Testament primarily revealed the nature of the Law, and by default, the nature of the one who took advantage of the law to kill, steal and destroy.

I hope that this helps.

Peace...
 
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Good observation, both of you. I commend you!

I do discount alot of the Old Testament that is not promises. But I have a scriptural reason for doing so.

Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets:



The curse was the consequence of not obeying the law. Because He fulfilled the law for us, He freed us from the curse:



Yet he did not come to fulfil the promises, as he came to fulfil the law; instead, He came to confirm the promises:



Confirmation in this context is talking about ratification:



We confirm or ratify covenants today by a signature. We call them contracts instead of covenants, but they are essentially the same thing. Jesus ratified/confirmed our Covenant in His own blood.

It is for this reason that the law, and the curses of the law no longer are applicable to the christian. Their handwriting has been nailed to the cross with Christ. That was the whole reason for the cross. The part of the Old Covenant that is applicable to us today are the promises.

However, many of those from the other side of these debates discount scriptures from both the Old and the New, whatever does not fit their theology.



True. He is the same God. But the Old Testament was a revelation of the Law of Sin and Death, the laws of creation that God set in motion at the time that He created this universe. If you define God by the results of the Law of Sin and Death then you will end up attributing to God the nature of satan, because the devil had the power of death:




The New Testament is a revelation of The Law of The Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus. If you define God by the results of this law, you discover the true nature of God, love.

That is why Jesus said things like this:



Jesus was basically saying, "Yeah, I know that the Law of Moses says these things, but I am saying this...". That is because Jesus came to reveal the nature of the Father, while the Old Testament primarily revealed the nature of the Law, and by default, the nature of the one who took advantage of the law to kill, steal and destroy.

I hope that this helps.

Peace...

Yes, Jesus fulfilled the Law..and it boils down to Love..So, when it comes to the OT, I am not under that. BUT, my point is this..There are still things we can learn from the OT about our walk with God.....That was pretty much my point and some other things that help us in our journey.

I don't go digging in the OT for any promises of God, etc..I have that in Christ..Christ has fulfilled the law.

I do still notice how many take OT promises and use them for today, and take the rest of the OT and throw it out if it does not fit into their own personal doctrines. That was my point.
 
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