sentipente
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Can someone educate me?
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I cannot comment on your experience as an SDA. I can only comment on my own, and it was at least that drastic.
If such a thing were even possible, would you be in favor of, or opposed to, a public statement made by the SDA denomination repudiating the denomination's position on the mark of the beast and the seal of God?
BFA
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Then I submit that it may be just as drastic as I've made it sound. After all, you seem to have no problem leaving us with a teaching that says:
(1) If we don't keep the sabbath correctly, we will one day receive the mark of the beast; and
(2) There is no clear definition as to what it means to keep the sabbath.
Sure sounds like Russian Roullette to me.
BFA
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Thanks to all for your continued candor in this thread. I'd like to discuss fundamental belief #21:
BFA
21. Stewardship:
We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness.
I certainly am not opposed to free will giving that benefits the Kingdom of Heaven. However, I do have some questions regarding this fundamental belief of SDAism:We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness.
Q1: Does the SDA denomination consider tithing a moral law or a ceremonial law?
Q2: Upon what basis does the SDA denomination reach its conclusion?
Q3: Where in Scripture do we find the basis for tithing? Who was it for?
Q4: Is the form of tithing taught within SDAism consistent with the form of tithing taught in the Bible?
Q5: Are SDA storehouses the only appropriate storehouses?
Q6: What are we supposed to bring to the storehouses (according to the Biblical principle of tithing)?
Q7: How much are we supposed to bring to the storehouses (according to the Biblical principle of tithing)?
Any thoughts?Q2: Upon what basis does the SDA denomination reach its conclusion?
Q3: Where in Scripture do we find the basis for tithing? Who was it for?
Q4: Is the form of tithing taught within SDAism consistent with the form of tithing taught in the Bible?
Q5: Are SDA storehouses the only appropriate storehouses?
Q6: What are we supposed to bring to the storehouses (according to the Biblical principle of tithing)?
Q7: How much are we supposed to bring to the storehouses (according to the Biblical principle of tithing)?
BFA
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Hi MVA,
Although this thread is really devoted to exploring the ways in which progressive SDAs view the fundamentals of the SDA denomination (so that non-SDAs can better understand which things we hold in common with progressive SDAs), I appreciate your response providing the traditional SDA viewpoint.
If tithing laws are ceremonial (per the SDA definition of this word), then they have been fulfilled by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As such, SDAs must conclude that the specific requirements relating to tithing have already been filled full.
If tithing laws are moral (per the SDA definition of this word), then it seems clear that SDAism does not believe that the moral law is the ten commandments (or at least that it the moral law isn't only the ten commandments).
The ramifications of this point are rather troubling for the SDA denomination. Therefore, I believe it worthy of further consideration. Can you speak to these issues?
How does SDAism view the "tithe of thy corn," the "tithe of thy wine," or "the tithe of thy oil?"
Does SDAism conclude that tithe is the first part out of ten, or the last part out of ten?
Does SDAism teach that a man is to eat the tenth part of his increase as a reminder of all that God has done; or does SDAism teach that the tenth part of the increase must be given in its entirety to another?
Are we to bring tithes into the storehouse so that there may be money in the house, or so that there may be meat in the house? What is the purpose?
According to Jesus, which is a weightier matter, tithing or law, judgment, mercy, and faith?
If a person is employed by the SDA denomination, would the denomination review the amount of tithe given by the employee to the SDA denomination? If the employee does not give a tithe to the SDA denomination, would he be counseled by the denomination for failing to do so?
BFA
Although this thread is really devoted to exploring the ways in which progressive SDAs view the fundamentals of the SDA denomination (so that non-SDAs can better understand which things we hold in common with progressive SDAs), I appreciate your response providing the traditional SDA viewpoint.
Actually, this point not only seems relevant to the 21st fundamental belief of SDAs, but also to the entire view of the law by the SDA denomination. Therefore, I assert that it is indeed a topic that is worthy of our time.
If tithing laws are ceremonial (per the SDA definition of this word), then they have been fulfilled by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As such, SDAs must conclude that the specific requirements relating to tithing have already been filled full.
If tithing laws are moral (per the SDA definition of this word), then it seems clear that SDAism does not believe that the moral law is the ten commandments (or at least that it the moral law isn't only the ten commandments).
The ramifications of this point are rather troubling for the SDA denomination. Therefore, I believe it worthy of further consideration. Can you speak to these issues?
I think you missed the point of my question. I am asking which portions of Scripture form the basis of the SDA position on tithing.
Are we to tithe as Abram tithed? If so, can you explain the exact nature of the tithe that Abram gave? Why should we conclude that Abram's gift was meant to set a precedent?
How does SDAism define "tithe of the land?"
How does SDAism view the "tithe of thy corn," the "tithe of thy wine," or "the tithe of thy oil?"
Does SDAism conclude that tithe is the first part out of ten, or the last part out of ten?
Does SDAism teach that a man is to eat the tenth part of his increase as a reminder of all that God has done; or does SDAism teach that the tenth part of the increase must be given in its entirety to another?
Are we to bring tithes into the storehouse so that there may be money in the house, or so that there may be meat in the house? What is the purpose?
According to Jesus, which is a weightier matter, tithing or law, judgment, mercy, and faith?
If a person is considered for a church office by an SDA nominating committee, would that nominating committee review the amount of tithe given by the prospective nominee to the SDA denomination? Is it possible that the prospective nominee would be considered ineligible for church office if he did not give a tithe to the SDA denomination?
If a person is employed by the SDA denomination, would the denomination review the amount of tithe given by the employee to the SDA denomination? If the employee does not give a tithe to the SDA denomination, would he be counseled by the denomination for failing to do so?
An increase with respect to corn, wine, oil, honey, etc. Correct?
The first tenth or the last tenth?
BFA
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mva1985
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I have sat on several nominating committees and never once has the issue of a member tithing come up.
The only person in the church that knows the tithing habits of members is the treasurer. The pastor would only need to know if it was absolutely necessary.
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sentipente
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widow gave an offering.... the Pharisees tithed because that was the system for Israel.... that system came to an end with Jesus......
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simple.... this is not a theocracy, we are not Israel, and there are no Levites..... additionally if you are going to adhere to a system, then use all of it.... every third year the tithe is to go to the widows, orphans and strangers.... that's not happening.... as I said before, when tithing was established it was not money.... it was corn, wheat, wine, livestock....
Please note I am not suggesting that the church should not be supported, however tithing is not mandatory.....
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mva1985
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I understand that you believe the church should be supported - never doubted it just so you know.
And I realize that the Hebrews probably were mostly dealing with cattle and farming and such.
So if I understand you correctly you believe tithing was a purely Levitical law?
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Denominational employees are not given the choice to tithe or not tithe. 10% of their salary is deducted before they receive their pay.
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yep..... remember tithing was to go to the tribe of Levi because they had no inheritance..... the tithing system was for the COI to provide for their relatives who were dedicated to maintaining the sanctuary and services....
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Tithing was NOT money or income based; it was LAND based.
If two farmers had crops of 10 carrots each, they would both be obligated to tithe one carrot. Under the agrarian tithing system it didn't matter If one sold the other 9 carrots for $5 and the other sold his remaining 9 carrots for $10. The tithe of the harvest was unrelated to the income of the harvest. Plain and simple - THE TITHE WAS NOT 10% OF INCOME, it was 10% of the harvest. The Jews under the law were NOT obligated to give 10% of their incomes! This simple fact alone is enough to destroy the false doctrine that God DEMANDS you pay 10% of your income or be cursed.
Money was rarely, if ever, the thing tithed in the Bible. [Nehemiah 13:10-13] To be truly biblical, tithing was NOT based on your income or money AT ALL! [Deuteronomy 14:22-23, 18:1-5, 26:12, Nehemiah 10:38-39, 12:44, Leviticus 27:30-33, Joshua 13:14] Pre-law tithing was voluntary and profit based and law tithing was mandated and PRODUCTION based [i.e. agrarian]. Agrarian means "of the land," and agrarian tithing was based on what you were able to PRODUCE from the land, plants or livestock. God commanded people bring a tenth of what they produced from the land BEFORE they sold it. So Tithing was NOT based on the income of a given harvest. In fact, it was against the law to sell the tithe. One was to bring the PRODUCT, not what the product was worth. [Leviticus. 27:28] There are many references to tithing the "increase" [Example: Deuteronomy 14:22 using the Hebrew tbuw'ah] which literally means fruit or produce and in the tithing verses EATING the tithe is often referred to. Note in Nehemiah 13:10, the Levites went to THE FIELD to replace missing tithes. During the time of agrarian law tithing bartering was common but there were also MONEY SYSTEMS in place. [Genesis 23: 15-16 and 42:25, Jeremiah 32:9-11, Deuteronomy 14:25 and Malachi 3:5] Yet the tithe remained agrarian [land based].
According to the Douglas / Tenney NIV Bible Dictionary Leviticus. 27:31 makes clear a penalty of 20% of the tithe was exacted from one who redeemed his tithes and refused to use the money to pay for a substitute. Again, this shows the tithe was not income or money based.
God gave Israel's tithes to the Levites as an inheritance in lieu of land. [Joshua 13:14, Deuteronomy 10:6-9, 18:1-5, Numbers 18:21, 24] The Levites gave tithes and offerings out of the tithes to the priests [Nehemiah 10:38, Numbers 18], but they apparently didn't have to tithe the income from the sale of inherited property. [Deuteronomy 18:6-8] The Levites and priests were dependent on tithes for FOOD. God's house was a STOREHOUSE and DISTRIBUTION POINT for the sacrifices, Levites, priests and those in need. [Malachi 4:10 "Bring all the tithes into the STOREHOUSE that there may be FOOD in My House. [Nehemiah 13:10-13, 1 Samuel 8:15, 17, 2 Chronicles 31:11, Deuteronomy 12:6-7, 17-19, 14:22 - 23] There was one exception for converting a tithe into money that was allowed early in the law. According to many scholars, this exception was abolished later. Deuteronomy 14:24-27 gives this early exception proving money systems were in place without tithing being based on money. In this early exception one could sell the tithe given specific circumstances and spend the money on whatever one desired provided one shared what one bought with the local Levite. Also, these verses make clear, "if the distance was too long for you to CARRY YOUR TITHE" proving the tithe was NOT money based. The New Testament shows Pharisees tithing, not income or money, but what they OWNED and GREW. [Luke 18:12, Matthew 23:23 showing tithing was PROFIT and AGRARIAN based.]
http://members.aol.com/richinri/messages/tithing.htm
If two farmers had crops of 10 carrots each, they would both be obligated to tithe one carrot. Under the agrarian tithing system it didn't matter If one sold the other 9 carrots for $5 and the other sold his remaining 9 carrots for $10. The tithe of the harvest was unrelated to the income of the harvest. Plain and simple - THE TITHE WAS NOT 10% OF INCOME, it was 10% of the harvest. The Jews under the law were NOT obligated to give 10% of their incomes! This simple fact alone is enough to destroy the false doctrine that God DEMANDS you pay 10% of your income or be cursed.
Money was rarely, if ever, the thing tithed in the Bible. [Nehemiah 13:10-13] To be truly biblical, tithing was NOT based on your income or money AT ALL! [Deuteronomy 14:22-23, 18:1-5, 26:12, Nehemiah 10:38-39, 12:44, Leviticus 27:30-33, Joshua 13:14] Pre-law tithing was voluntary and profit based and law tithing was mandated and PRODUCTION based [i.e. agrarian]. Agrarian means "of the land," and agrarian tithing was based on what you were able to PRODUCE from the land, plants or livestock. God commanded people bring a tenth of what they produced from the land BEFORE they sold it. So Tithing was NOT based on the income of a given harvest. In fact, it was against the law to sell the tithe. One was to bring the PRODUCT, not what the product was worth. [Leviticus. 27:28] There are many references to tithing the "increase" [Example: Deuteronomy 14:22 using the Hebrew tbuw'ah] which literally means fruit or produce and in the tithing verses EATING the tithe is often referred to. Note in Nehemiah 13:10, the Levites went to THE FIELD to replace missing tithes. During the time of agrarian law tithing bartering was common but there were also MONEY SYSTEMS in place. [Genesis 23: 15-16 and 42:25, Jeremiah 32:9-11, Deuteronomy 14:25 and Malachi 3:5] Yet the tithe remained agrarian [land based].
According to the Douglas / Tenney NIV Bible Dictionary Leviticus. 27:31 makes clear a penalty of 20% of the tithe was exacted from one who redeemed his tithes and refused to use the money to pay for a substitute. Again, this shows the tithe was not income or money based.
God gave Israel's tithes to the Levites as an inheritance in lieu of land. [Joshua 13:14, Deuteronomy 10:6-9, 18:1-5, Numbers 18:21, 24] The Levites gave tithes and offerings out of the tithes to the priests [Nehemiah 10:38, Numbers 18], but they apparently didn't have to tithe the income from the sale of inherited property. [Deuteronomy 18:6-8] The Levites and priests were dependent on tithes for FOOD. God's house was a STOREHOUSE and DISTRIBUTION POINT for the sacrifices, Levites, priests and those in need. [Malachi 4:10 "Bring all the tithes into the STOREHOUSE that there may be FOOD in My House. [Nehemiah 13:10-13, 1 Samuel 8:15, 17, 2 Chronicles 31:11, Deuteronomy 12:6-7, 17-19, 14:22 - 23] There was one exception for converting a tithe into money that was allowed early in the law. According to many scholars, this exception was abolished later. Deuteronomy 14:24-27 gives this early exception proving money systems were in place without tithing being based on money. In this early exception one could sell the tithe given specific circumstances and spend the money on whatever one desired provided one shared what one bought with the local Levite. Also, these verses make clear, "if the distance was too long for you to CARRY YOUR TITHE" proving the tithe was NOT money based. The New Testament shows Pharisees tithing, not income or money, but what they OWNED and GREW. [Luke 18:12, Matthew 23:23 showing tithing was PROFIT and AGRARIAN based.]
http://members.aol.com/richinri/messages/tithing.htm
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