Mary, there's something about her...

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Theresa

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There's three main reasons why we honour Mary so much:

a) She is recognized as the "Queen Mother" forshadowed in the Davidic line. She also known as the "Theotokos" which means "God-bearer."

b) She is considered to be the NT Ark of the Covenant

c) She is recognized as the "Woman" foreshadowed in Genesis, prophesized in Revelations and acknowledged in the Gospels. Also known as the "New Eve."

There are also many other reason why we honour her, such as: she was the first Christian, her ulitmate "yes" to God, and she is also known as the Mother of the Church as well as all Christians. Does anybody want to go deeper in understanding these concepts????

Thanx, Luv
Theresa
 
I don't think the issue is whether we or anyone can honor Mary. It is that the Catholic Church believes that she can provide salvation. RCs call her the Mediatrix, but the Bible says there is only one Mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. That is the main issues I have with the RCC, many of there doctrines are not scriptural.

Please understand, that doesn't mean I don't believe some Catholics aren't on their way to heaven, they just won't be stopping in purgatory.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
I don't think the issue is whether we or anyone can honor Mary. It is that the Catholic Church believes that she can provide salvation. RCs call her the Mediatrix, but the Bible says there is only one Mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. That is the main issues I have with the RCC, many of there doctrines are not scriptural.

Please understand, that doesn't mean I don't believe some Catholics aren't on their way to heaven, they just won't be stopping in purgatory.

Dan,

I don't know where you came up with that idea, but Catholics actually don't teach that.  Ideally, I think one should consult the Catechism for better understanding of the Catholic doctrines.

Anyway, as for 'mediatrix', Wolseley once said it well:

Jesus was Mary's Savior. The only difference is, He preserved Mary from Original Sin, while the rest of us are cleansed of Original Sin when we are saved. The reasoning for this is that it was proper for Christ to be borne into the world in a sinless vessel. The reason for the sinless vessel was because of His holiness, not Mary's. She was conceived sinless only so He could be borne in an immaculate womb. Her role in the whole thing was incidental and secondary.

As for the "co-redemptrix" thing, that results from confusiuon concerning the Latin title. The doctrine of Mary as co-redemptrix states three things:

1. She co-operated with God by agreeing to bear the Savior into the world.

2. She helped Jesus during His earthly ministry.

3. She suffered terrible anguish when Jesus suffered and died on the Cross.

That's it. There is no mention whatsoever of Mary suffering for mankind's salvation, nor any mention of making her equal to Christ. So why the title "Co-Redemptrix", you ask?

In American English, "co-" means "something equal to", a "partner in"; such as "co-worker", "co-signer", "co-lender", etc. People naturally assume that "co-"anything means "an equal partner to".

But in Latin, "co-" is a derivative of the word c-u-m, meaning "with". Therefore the title "Co-Redemptrix" literally means "with the Redeemer", or "alongside the Redeemer". It does NOT mean "equal to the Redeemer", or "another Redeemer", anything like that.

Unfortunately, most Americans know diddly-squat about Latin anymore, so there is a vast misunderstanding about this doctrine based on the title. Personally, I think that "Co-Operatrix" would have been a better choice, since it explains the doctrine more clearly and would avoid the confusion, but the Vatican doesn't consult me on these things.


Hope that helps =)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Theresa

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Hi, Dan!  I'm sorry I can't discuss your reference of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces because I'm not really well versed on that subject.  I will, of course, make it my next research project. :D

 

I will, however, discuss the one Mediator, Christ Jesus.

Catholics and Protestants both agree that a mediator is someone who helps reconcile two estranged parties, in the case of Christianity, Christ reconciles God with fallen mankind and he was the only one capable of doing such a thing.

 

However,there is such a thing as a "subordinate mediator" who may act in the name of the mediator by his authority.  The question is whether or not 1 Tim 2:5 excludes any role of subordinate mediator.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time" (1 Tim 2:5)

You could say that disproves the Catholic Church's position, except for the prior verses 1-4, "First of all, then I urge that SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS, INTERCESSIONS, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and for all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."  Supplications, Prayers and Intercessions are all acts of mediation made possible and through Christ Jesus. 

Eph 6:18-19 "Do all this in prayer, asking for God's help.  Pray on every occassion,as the Spirit leads. For this reason keep on alert and never give up; pray always for God's people."

Rev 5:8 "As he did so, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.  Each had a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of God's people," (or the prayers of the saints).

Does this help?  I know I didn't mention Mary but I have to try to prove the Communion of Saints before I  could try to prove the role of Mary.

Do you want to discuss Purgatory as well?  I may be spreading myself to thin though!  I'm terribly bored here at home!!! :sleep:

Thanx,Luv

Theresa
 
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Ladies and Gents,

I have been on other forums and I am getting the same answers from Catholics. I really don't have anything against you, but many of the RCC doctrines are not Biblical. Who said Mary didn't sin? If she didn't sin, they why did she say Jesus was her savior. If she was sinless, she definitely wouldn't have stated she needed a savior. I am very opened minded about what RC's have to say about what they believe, but the Bible seems to be left out of most of their answers. The use the Catecism alot though. Of course this is not inspired like the Bible is.
Many of you would be shocked if you saw the video "Messages from Heaven" I really suggest viewing it. You can even watch it online - for those of you with high speed internet connections. It can be viewed from christiananswers.net. Be open minded, many of you may not know what is going on in your own religion.

Prepare for His coming!
 
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jukesk9

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Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
I  It is that the Catholic Church believes that she can provide salvation. 

This is a ridiculous claim.  Please, if you can, provide something to back this up from Sacred Scripture or from Sacred Tradition (which would include all documents, the Catechism, etc.) that shows Holy Mother Church teaches this.  Attend one Mass, just one, (and pay attention) and then come back and tell me who the focus is on.

No one saves but Jesus Christ.  And no practicing Catholic who knows the faith will tell you other wise.  Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again. 
 
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sklippstein

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Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
I It is that the Catholic Church believes that she can provide salvation.

Again, this is a misunderstanding as to what the Catholic Church teaches......NO WHERE does the Catholic Church refer to Mary as the source of Salvation. Please inquire before making such a statement.
 
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Here are some refs from the RCC catechism which talk about Mary being able to provide salvation to us.

"Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969

"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494

And the Bible does not teach of a co-mediatrix - this was invented by the RCC.
 
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Theresa

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Subject-"Mary Sinless?"

Perhaps we could start with a really bare discussion on Mary as the New Testament Ark of the Covenant???

In the Old Testament we read of the Ark of the Covenant which was made with only the purest, finest materials. Inside it were three things: the priestly rod of Aaron, the manna from heaven, the stone tablets with the Word of God.

Inside Mary's womb she carried: the High Priest, the "true bread from heaven," and the Word incarnate.

As the NT Ark of the Covenant, Mary is made with the finest materials, inside and out. God demanded that the Ark be made with the finest of materials (Ex 25:10-22). The Holy Spirit used only the purest material to tabernacle the Divine Son. For in Mary "the Word became flesh and dwelt [literally "tabernacled" or "pitched his tent"] among us."(Jn 1:14)

In Revelations we read of a sighting of the Ark of The Covenant which probably would have been amazing to John because it had been lost for 580 years but there he sees it "God's temple in heaven was opened, and the Covenant Box was seen there. Then there were flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thuder, and earthquake and heavy hail," and does it disappear? No,it continues, "Then a great and mysterious sight appeared in the sky. There was a woman, whose dress was the sun and who had the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."
Rev 11:19;12:1

There's also similar language used to parallel Mary with the Ark.
Ark of the Covenant:

-to Jerusalem (2 Sam 6:12,15-16)
-in house of Obededom (2 Sam 6:10)
-David danced with joy (2 Sam 6:14)
-David said, "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam 6:9)
-people rejoice (2 Sam 6:12)
-shouting (2 Sam 6:15)
-remained in the house of Obededom for three months (2 Sam 6:11)

Mary:
-goes to town in hill country (Lk 1:39)
-in house of Zechariah (Lk 1:40)
-John leaps in mother's womb (Lk 1:4)
- Elizabeth said, "And why has this happened to me, that the mother of the Lord comes to me?" (Lk 1:43)
-Mary rejoices (Lk 1:40)
-Loud cry (Lk 1:42)
-Mary remains with Elizabeth for three months (Lk 1:56)

Many of our Catholic beliefs cannot be proven with one line of Scripture. It usually takes a larger, broader understanding throughout the entire Bible.

Maybe next time I'll write about Mary as the "Woman" or "New Eve."

Thanx, Luv
Theresa
 
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Dear Dan,

While I may not agree with all that the Catholic Church teaches, I did think it only fair to provide some context to the proof texts you provided out of the Catechism.

For #969, did you read the paragraph right after it?
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

As for #494, surely you also read the preceeding section:
Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith." Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."
 
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jukesk9

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Let's listen in to the latest White House briefing......

<IMG height=200 src="http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/daily/2002/0205/ari0516.jpg" width=300 border=1>"The President is committed to finding out why anti-Catholics spread disinformation about what the Catholic Church teaches.&nbsp; He is also committed to finding out why they feel they are such an authority on what the Catholic Church teaches. The title Co-redemptrix, which has been current since the 15th century, . . . must not be conceived in the sense of an equation of the efficacy of Mary with the redemptive activity of Christ, the sole Redeemer of humanity (1 Timothy 2:5) . . . Her co-operation in the objective redemption is an indirect, remote co-operation, and derives from this, that she voluntarily devoted her whole life to the service of the Redeemer, and under the Cross, suffered and sacrificed with Him . ."&nbsp;
 
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Wolseley

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I'm always amused when a non-Catholic with issues about the "errors" of the Catholic Faith tries to prove his claims by quoting Catholic documents.
Here are some refs from the RCC catechism which talk about Mary being able to provide salvation to us.

"Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969
Go back to page 252, #969, dan. You will notice that there is a footnote, specifically number 512. The document this footnote quotes from is from the 2nd Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, dated 21 November 1964, number 62.

Okay, so we go to our copy of Vatican II documents, and we look up the quote from the Catechism which you have provided for us above. Lo and behold! What you have given us above appears to be only a PARTIAL QUOTE from Vatican II!!!

And what does the ENTIRE quote say??? Why, it says this:

"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues
uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the
Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross,
until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she
did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession
continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal
charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on
earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into
their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church
under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.
This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one
Mediator.

No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and
Redeemer;
but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique
mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a
manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary,
which it constantly experiences and recommends to the heartfelt attention
of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the
more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer."

(Emphasis mine.)

In other words, your quote, taken in context, says exactly the opposite of what you said it says.

Then we have this:
"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494
This is also a partial quote, from Irenaeus of Lyons, in his treatise Adversus haereses ("Against Heresies"), Book III, Chapter 22, Part 4, written between 180 and 199 AD. The complete quote:

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise "they were both naked, and were not ashamed," inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee." For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead," and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."

(Again, emphasis mine.)

In other words, Eve brought condemnation on mankind through her disobediance, whereas Mary, through her obediance in bearing the Savior of mankind into the world, brought us the means of salvation: Jesus Christ Himself. If she hadn't obeyed God by giving birth to Jesus, we wouldn't have a Savior.

Where is the heterodox doctrine in all of this??? I don't see any.

Make sure you know what you're quoting, where it came from, and what it says, dan, before you start using it to back up anti-Catholic statements. ;)
 
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Listen everyone. I guess what I am really getting at is where did the RCC get its belieft. Are you telling me that most of you believe an unispired document like the catechism? I have only one book that tells me what I need to know about my beliefs, The Holy Bible. Do you know why it is called "Holy"? Because it was written by God Himself through specifically chosen individuals.
If Mary provided mediation or even assists Jesus with salvation for us, why isn't she mentioned in any of the epistles? Why are her last recoreded words "Whatsoever her saith unto you, do it". Where does it mention her ascension?
Will one of you watch the video "Messages from Heaven"? I think you will get some good information on what the RCC really teaches started with the pope.
 
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VOW

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To Dan Robinson:

The One Bread, One Body forum is for the DISCUSSION of Catholic beliefs. If you have points of the Catholic Church you wish to DEBATE, then we respectfully request that you take your postings to the Protestant/Catholic/Jewish Meeting place.

You haven't been following ANY of the information we have presented to you here. MANY of the teachings of Mary by the Catholic Church are indeed Scriptural, and you have been provided with references.

Your Bible was made available through the efforts of the Early Church Fathers, who assembled what they considered to be "inspired" writings in the fourth century. These learned people used the teachings of the Apostles, called "Sacred Tradition" and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to discern WHICH writings were of God, and should be declared as such.

The combination of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up the Original Deposit of Faith, which has been kept by the Catholic Church since the time of the Apostles. It is through this Deposit of Faith that the teachings of Mary originate. NONE OF THESE TEACHINGS CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
Will one of you watch the video "Messages from Heaven"? I think you will get some good information on what the RCC really teaches started with the pope.

Who makes this video? And why do you think it is the authoritative source for what the Church 'really' teaches? Don't you think the Catholic Church would be the best source for what the Catholic Church teaches? Now you may disagree with what the Church teaches, and that is your perogative, but please don't assume that because we don't agree with you we don't really know what the Church teaches.

Is there a reason that you assume that we only remain in the Church because we are ignorant? That we have been...what?...blinded, brainwashed, deceived, yada yada, etc...? Do you know what the difference is between us? I have studied, researched, and prayerfully considered both sides. I have seen attack and defense, charge and explanation, and I have made my decision in faith and with good conscience that the fullest revelation of Truth is found within the Catholic Church. God bless you and Peace be with you.
 
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pax

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Devotion to the Mother of God is mentioned very early in many sources.

The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).



The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).



Justin Martyr

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).



Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

You can find more @ http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
 
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jukesk9

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Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
Will one of you watch the video "Messages from Heaven"? I think you will get some good information on what the RCC really teaches started with the pope.

Um. No.&nbsp; I don't watch anti-Catholic propaganda.&nbsp; And that's absurd to think that video really knows what the Church teaches.&nbsp; Since I go to Mass regularly, read the Bible, pray, etc., I KNOW what the Church teaches and it is salvation through Jesus Christ and He alone.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
Listen everyone. I guess what I am really getting at is where did the RCC get its belieft. Are you telling me that most of you believe an unispired document like the catechism?

I believe lots of uninspired documents. Let's say someone writes on a piece of paper "God loves me." I will believe it, because it is consistent with my beliefs about God, even though the piece of paper is not the Bible.


Will one of you watch the video "Messages from Heaven"? I think you will get some good information on what the RCC really teaches started with the pope.

Who puts this video out?

Also, speaking of sources... If I want to find out what the RCC teaches, shouldn't I read their writings? I am not Wiccan, but if I want to find out about Wicca, I'll read their books, not the Bible. If I want to find out what the RCC teaches, the Catechism seems like the right place to start. I may have to get one.
 
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