Porgatory...Real or myth.

To WoG:

Purgatory isn't "payment" for sins, nor is it a second chance at salvation. Only the people who acknowledged and accepted the redemption of Christ for their sins while alive make it to Heaven, and the folks who need to spend time in Purgaory have their tickets to Heaven.

Purgatory is a cleansing of the residuals of sin. Think of it this way: there is a Heavenly Banquet of the Lamb in the presence of God, to which we all have been invited. Unless we've lived exemplary lives here on earth, we all will have some traces of "grime" upon our souls. You wouldn't sit down to a meal with dirty hands, would you? Well, Purgatory allows us to "wash up" before we sit in the presence of God. Check 1 Corinthians, chapter 3: our works will be tried by fire, and the "straw and wood" will be burnt, but the gold, silver, and precious stones will be left behind.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Warrior, have you ever been convicted of some sin tht you do? When you were convicted, if you have been, did you not feel a sorrow that was shortly replaced by an increase in faith and love for Christ who saved you?

God Bless,

Neal

Warrior of Grace,

In the Old Testament there is a passage which tells us to pray for the dead. Why pray for the dead if they are already destined for heaven or hell? One is already saved and the other can never be saved.

Our sinful souls cannot bear the sight of the Beatific Vision. Therefore, our souls need to be totally purified from all stain of sin before being united with God.

Purgatory is this very necessary purification. And we on earth can aid those in purgatory through our prayers. We can help to quicken their purfication by petitioning God on their behalf. This is why we are asked to pray for the dead.

What Vow stated makes perfect sense. You would prepare yourself and cleanse yourself for an important banquet. Therefore, we are also prepared and purified for our eternal banquet.

In Christ, Patrick

? I thought the Catholic Church eliminated both Limbo and Purgatory many years ago.

Purgatory is part of the original Deposit of the Faith, and therefore cannot be "eliminated". It has always been part of Catholic belief, and will always remain so.

Limbo, OTOH, was a concept developed by the Medieval Scholastic theologians, brought about by a very legalistic interpretation of the Sacrament of Baptism. It was never an officially-defined dogma, merely a doctrine, and it has been shelved by modern theologians. The official stance of the Church concerning unbaptized infants is that they will be cared for by God, Who in His infinite mercy will find a place for them.

Warrior i did this thread in another forum. I will try to retrieve it and bring some of the information i found when i researched this topic.

Warrior:

Yes we either GO to heaven or to hell. There is no question of that. The question is: how will we go there? Purgatory is not a destination. You do hot go TO purgatory you go THROUGH purgatory.

I have often been asked to make this case to Protestants concerning purgatory and its really not a hard case to make. First of all - in the scripture in the gospel of Luke chapter 16 we find purgatory in the Bosom of Abraham.

But, even without that reference, there is scriptural support for the need of purgatory which can be seen with a simple logical examination of certain key Christian doctrinal issues.

1. It is understood that there can be no forgiveness of sins without relinquishing those sins through repentance. We cannot expect God to forgive us for sins we have not or will not repent of. To say otherwise, is to state that Christ's death on the Cross was license to live like a devil. Christ will forgive freely any sin we bring to him in repentance - nothing we do will earn forgiveness, but we must choose to accept the forgiveness Christ offers.

Pr 28:13
1 Jn 1:9
1 cor 4:4
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Heb 6:6

2. Sin = darkness. Romans 13:12 calls sin the works of darkness.

3. Sin is of the devil. 1 Jn 3:8

4. Light has no fellowship with darkness. 1Jn:1:5; 2 cor 6:14

5. God is a being of light. Jn 2:21; Acts 26:18; 1Jn 1:5

THEREFORE, we can conclude based upon these facts that: Since God is light, and Sin is darkness, if we die with unrepented on us we cannot go directly into the Light of God. The Darkness with in us must first be purged from us so that we can enter clean of the devils influences.

After reading the posts on this thread, I still don't believe in the existance in purgatory. First and foremost, it is not scriptural. I have posted and Catholic Exchange and still haven't gotten a biblical reference for purgatory. Can anyone help out with this. My devout catholic friend can't.

Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
After reading the posts on this thread, I still don't believe in the existance in purgatory. First and foremost, it is not scriptural. I have posted and Catholic Exchange and still haven't gotten a biblical reference for purgatory. Can anyone help out with this. My devout catholic friend can't.

Click to expand...

Hi Dan,

I don't necessarily agree with the Catholic teaching of purgatory but I do agree that there may be some purification process after believers physically die.

I know that may sound strange but as the others pointed out, nothing impure can enter God's presence (Rev 21:27), and we see in the bible that those who are in the heavenly jerusalem are believers who are made perfect (Heb 12:23), I'm willing to believe these believers are those who physically died.

So there may be some 'state' where the believer would possibly go through a purification/sanctification process if the believer had some unrepentant sin.  But I don't know if I fully agree with the Catholic view on purgatory

-Jason

Purgatory (Point Papers-St.Charles Borromeo website)

"Concerning the scriptural basis for Purgatory, Matt 12:32 tells us about sin against the Holy Spirit and the fact that this sin will not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come; implying that other sins will be forgiven in the world to come. Rev 21:27 tells us that nothing impure will enter into Heaven; but a soul bearing any sin at all is not pure. Heb 12:29 and Deut 4:24 remind us that God is a consuming fire [his love is a fiery love (the highest rank of angels, the ones closest to God's fiery love, is called Seraphim which is Hebrew for "the burning ones.")]

How does the impure become pure? Through the fire of judgement; the refining fire of God's love. This refining process is described in 1 Cor 3:10-15 wherein the wood, hay and stubble (impure works, stains the soul) are burned away and only the gold, silver and precious stones (works of merit) remain and after suffering this loss, man is saved. There is no detailed explanation of Purgatory in Holy Scripture because it was not a point of contention. Research into Jewish tradition/beliefs at the time of Jesus shows that sheol was divided into more that the two parts most commonly considered today (Hell and Paradise) and in fact the Hell of the eternally darned is not called "sheol" but "gehenna" in the Bible. The Hebew word "sheol" is translated as "hades" in Greek and "pugatorio" in Latin......

The existence of purgatory, rather that questioning th efficacy of Christ's sacrifice as is claimed by some, makes Christ's sacrifice more meaningful because souls are no longer trapped there forever as is illustrated in Matt 27:50-51 wherein when Jesus died on the cross the curtain (or veil) was torn in two from top to bottom. Heaven was opened and available to all who would approach through Jesus, the new High Priest. If you continue reading through verse 52, you will find that those who gained this access were many of the dead saints; not necessarily all who were trapped there. We also know that between the time of His death and before His resurreciton Jesus descended to hades, preached to the souls trapped there, and lead many of them to Heaven.

Suffice it to say that Purgatory is looked at not as a punishment or a second chance, but rather as the removal of the remnants of one's self-centered acts and thoughts. As such, Purgatory is looked upon as a gift of God's love." (can I post the website address for this Catholic site?)

There's other verses you could look at:
Mt 5:48-be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God
Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
1 Jn 5:16-17 - degrees of sin distinguished
Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2 Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgement day
2 Mac 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free from sin
1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2 Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prayed for dead friend Onesiphorus
1 Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions baptizing for the dead6

and my favorite verse: "SINCE CHRIST SUFFERED PHYSICALLY, YOU TOO MUST STRENGTHEN YOURSELVES WITH THE SAME WAY OF THINKING THAT HE HAD; BECAUSE WHOEVER SUFFERS PHYSICALLY IS NO LONGER INVOLVED WITH SIN." 1 Pet 4:1

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
First and foremost, it is not scriptural. I have posted and Catholic Exchange and still haven't gotten a biblical reference for purgatory.

Click to expand...

Read the post made by Theresa before this one, but remember also that Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura. So whether or not a particular doctrine is found within the pages of the Bible is irrelevant.

-Chris

danrobinson:

Tell me sir, you say there is no scriptural reference for purgatory . . . where is the bosom of Abraham?

[[[First and foremost, it is not scriptural. I have posted and Catholic Exchange and still haven't gotten a biblical reference for purgatory. ]]]

Try 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15

"The man will be saved as though by fire"

If we believe that we need purification after we die, then we are saying that Christ's death and resurrection was not sufficient to take care of our sins. Our physical bodies may be impure, but our souls are righteous in God's eyes because of what Jesus did for us. So, once we die, we don't have any impurities. And for those who believe in the Rapture as I do, our bodies will be glorified, no need for a purification process.

Prepare for His coming!

Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
If we believe that we need purification after we die, then we are saying that Christ's death and resurrection was not sufficient to take care of our sins.

Click to expand...

That's a common charge against Purgatory (Porgatory?) but that's not the way the Catholics see it. Purgatory is part of the system that Christ's death made possible. It's not in addition to Christ's sacrifice, it's part of it.

-Chris

I'm still waiting for some one to tell me where and what the bosom of Abraham is . . . . a NON catholic that is . . .

God made the world. He made Adam and Eve and he gave them their first covenant which was the marriage covenant, then there was Noah and God's covenant included the family, then there was Abraham and this covenant involved a tribe, and then there's moses and that covenant involves Israel, and then there's David and he had a kingdom so that covenant involved a nation and then we get to Jesus, whose blood is the "new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that SINS MAY BE forgiven." This covenant involves the whole world.

The point of all this is why Jesus had to come to Earth at all. He had to come because of all of the previous convenants man could never keep his end of the bargain. So God had to come to earth as man so that at least one man in all of human history could hold up their end of the covenant by being sinless and totally faithful to God. (It took me a few hundred pages to understand this concept. I'm sorry it's so vague!)

The point is, Jesus came as an atoneing sacrifice. He is the "Lamb of God" he is the Passover feast except now we don't have to slay the lamb because Jesus became the lamb that was slain. (ie: we no longer need to approach God with an animal sacrifice as the Jews did.) Which is why when we approach God at church we offer the bread and wine, the body and blood because it is the seal of the new and everlasting covenant like the Passover feast was the seal of the old covenant.

Jesus was an atoning sacrifice, he was not a scapegoat. We still need to repent.

2 Sam 12:13-14 : "I have sinned against the Lord,"David said. Nathan replied, "The Lord forgives you; you will not die. But because you have shown such contempt for the Lord in doing this, your child will die."

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

Br Max - The bosom of Abraham(Paradise) doesn't exist anymore. When Jesus was on the cross and was talking to the thief, He said "Today you will be in paradise". That was a place that all believers went to before Chirist's death, but he took captivity captive and now there is no need for paradise because we now go to heaven. When He died, after 3 days, all the souls went to heaven with Him. When we die, we go to be with him. "Absent in the body is to be present with the Lord." Don't forget about Hades, Hell or prison - this is were all unbelievers went and still go to.

Devoted - The verses you gave do not, I believe, talk about purgatory.; but the Bema Judgement Seat of Christ. There will, I believe, be 2 judgements:
Judgement Seat of Christ - how believers lived for Christ on this earth
Great White Throne Judgement - only the unsaved will be judged here and then cast into the Lake of Fire

Chris - the reason that Catholics don't believe in Sola Scriptura is why I believe many of their doctrines are wrong. The Bible was an inspired book written by men directed by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is what we have to put our faith in, no a man or church.

Theresa - I believe our souls become pure once we truly accept Him as our Savior - I Pet 1:20 and I Jn 3:3 talks about this.

The Bible is what we have to put our faith in, no a man or church.

Click to expand...

Got a verse of Scripture for that?