OLD SHEPHERD:
And what exactly is your point here? Because John has a vision of a heavenly event that every other passage in the scripture is also a heavenly event, or what exactly? Just because one or more events can clearly be shown to be figurative, allegorical, symbolical, etc. does not prove that any other event is.
GW:
My specific point is that Revelation 1:7's "he comes with clouds" and Matt 26:64's "hereafter you [Caiaphas] shall see the son of man...coming in the clouds of heaven" ARE THE SAME EVENT AS Revelation 14:14-20, which is clearly a depiction of a heavenly visitation, not some physical appearing in cumulus clouds. Read that Revelation 14:14-20 passage to see that ST. John is not thinking of a physical event in the skies overhead, but of an event in the heavenly realms. This was fulfilled in the Day of the Lord against Israel in AD 67-70 when Christ the Stone--the Lord of the Vineyard--came in their generation, and did grind them to powder as foretold (Matt 21:40-45; Matt 23:34-38; Matt 24:33-34).
GW SAID:
Also, Jehovah's OT apocalypses were always described as Jehovah coming down and leading armies, and shooting arrows, and bowing the heavens and destroying the earth and such. Those OT events had corresponding judgments on earth, but the Jews knew Jehovah never literally and physically did those things. Yet the prophets spoke in very physical/literal terms about those judgments:
OLD SHEPHERD REPLIED:
Always? Pillar of smoke, pillar of fire, burning bush, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., etc.
GW:
Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signalled by the prophets with common apcalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:
*Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Sam 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ez 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon
In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:
*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.
This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)
OLD SHEPHERD:
* 2 Sam 22:8-16. The arrows the scriptures speak of are lightning bolts. Hebrew parallelism. Check it out.
GW:
Not so fast, friend. The passage says that at the destruction of Saul's kingdom, the earth shook, the foundations of the heavens were moved, smoke came out of Yahweh's nose and fire came out of His mouth and devoured, Yahweh came down to earth and bowed the heavens riding on a cherub and was seen and came with thick dark clouds and he spoke with his voice and he did send arrows and scattered them, and the foundations of the world were laid bare at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. THIS IS COMMON APOCALYPTIC IDIOM, and nothing more. It pertains to Jehovah's historic judgments of individuals and nations and civilizations that repeatedly take place in history. And for sure, Yahweh is never VISIBLY OR LITERALLY SEEN DOING ANY OF THESE THINGS--it is all transacted within the heavenly realms.
BTW, I noticed you had no comment for Zechariah 9:13-16 where Yahweh was seen over Greece and blowing his trumpet.
OLD SHEPHERD:
* Isa 19:1-2, already answered, Yes, I know you responded with a commentary or two. The opinions of scholars is not proof. That is the logical fallacy of equivocation.
GW:
Please provide your list of scholars that believe Isaiah 19:1-2 is not fulfilled.
OLD SHEPHERD:
* Isaiah 52.10. Are you saying Isaiah is a liar? Let us assume that this is a figure of speech. Does that, in and of itself, prove that any other passage in the Bible is also a figure of speech?
GW:
Isaiah is speaking in metaphors for God's invisible comings. Do you really believe that the gentiles saw Jehovah's arm appear suddenly before their very eyes??? Must have been some major historic event. LOL. The Jews fully knew and taught that no man can see Yahweh with the earthly eyes and live (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12), yet the Hebrew prophets always describe Yahweh's judgments as physical comings with armies, trumpets, arrows, bloodshed, destruction of heaven and earth, etc. etc. Isaiah 52:10 says the "eyes of all nations saw His arm." Zechariah 9:13-16 says Yahweh was "seen over Greece blowing his trumpet." This is called apocalyptic language. It is idomatic, it is Hebraic, it is not physical/literal whatsoever. The desolations of nations and civilizations are real, but the physical manifestation of Yahweh with armies and such is metaphor that describes his HEAVENLY, invisible workings that bring about such earthly dooms.
OLD SHEPHERD
* Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5. Moses said it happened. Are you calling Moses a liar. Are you saying that God is not capable of doing this? Along with the previous verse, what proof do you offer that it did not happen?
GW:
Of course it happened spiritually, but not visibly to the earthly eye--it is metaphorical speech. No man has ever seen Yahweh and lived (Ex 33:20; Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12). Compare Deut 33:2 to Jude 1:14--Moses words are standard apocalyptic language. The Judges 5:4-5 passage says Yahweh marched on the fields of Seir and Edom and the mountains all melted before him, even Sinai. Must have been some historic event to see Yahweh march on the fields! Certainly, Jehovah was not seen physically (Ex 33:20; Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12).
OLD SHEPHERD
Yahweh destroyed the cosmos when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).
If you tried real hard Im sure you could accurately quote something, anything. Lets review these two passages and see if they support your presumptions, and assumptions. According to your version the cosmos and the heavens are destroyed, vs. 23. It doesnt the say earth was destroyed but without form and void and the heavens were also not destroyed but had no light. And not only does the passage not say destroyed but God says specifically that He will not destroy. Vs. 27, yet will I not make a full end.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
GW REPLIES:
The point is, you and I believe this is FULFILLED! Therefore, if this apocalyptic scenario pertains to when Babylon conquered Jerusalem, why do you have trouble seeing that the same metaphors used by Christ and even the book of Revelation pertained to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and the various other catastrophies of that time???
OLD SHEPHERD
Now the other passage [Ezekiel 32:2-16], does it say that God destroyed the cosmos as you allege? No, once again a false quote. It says the heavens would be dark, not destroyed, and God said He would bring destruction among and "into" the nations, i.e. non-Jews, not that He would destroy the cosmos. Unless you want to claim that cover the sun with a cloud, vs. 32:7, means destroy the cosmos?
GW:
Please note that Ezekiel 32:6-8 is the same idiomatic speech as Jesus used in Matthew 24:29. Ezekiel 32:6-8 was fulfilled in the 500sBC. Isaiah 13:10 was fulfilled also probably in the 500s. Matthew 24:29 was fulfilled in the 1st century. For sure, if the heavens ever literally went dark, the universe and our solar system wouldn't still be here. Certainly the human race wouldn't still be here. "And there was no man left." The earth became WITHOUT FORM and VOID. Finally...
--COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Eze 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
--TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
--AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.