How was Adam able to sin, if he wasn't created with sin?

toirewadokodesuka · Jul 31, 2008

Carey said:
Preposterous only an illogocal mind cannot see the obvious logic in how this all follows perfectly with common sense.

Interact with only reality , no cowardly men or scare crows

It would be so easy to believe the lie that we don't have free will.

Then we would not have to try to keep our conscious thought on God so we would not sin.

We would never have to apologize for doing wrong.

We could be like children when they do wrong say its because my parents fight too much or because my parents got dicorced or my parents are drug addicts or wahtever is why I vandalized that property, stole things ,
hit that kid etc.

Only a brat spoiled rotten would want to believe such an obvious lie.

see my signature.

Waaaaaaaaah?

toirewadokodesuka · Jul 31, 2008

Carey said:
And it was possible to have fused to Jesus Gods sons psyche but not God the father and creator of everything. That would not have been possible.

But satan tried but Jesus as human of his free will chose to refuse Evils influence.

Matthew 4 : 1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'[a]"
5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[b]"
7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[c]"
8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'[d]" 11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

I don't agree. The concept of Jesus, is the concept of 100% God in 100% man. Therefore always overpowering any power sin has.

squint · Aug 1, 2008

toirewadokodesuka said:
I'm suprised how many people think "will" means the same as "free will". Ever heard of an "adjective"?

Exactly. Free is an exceptionally gross misnomer when attached to mankinds will.

Adam was hung with a Divine conundrum with the first command:

You may eat FREELY---BUT

Errr, uhhh, is there is FREELY with BUT attached? Errr, uhhh,

NOPE.

Freely ain't free with a BUT...

Is the WILL free with a BUT... Please, a little logic helps greatly.

Adam had FREEWILL...BUT...IF Adam "screwed up" then he wasn't so free now was he??? Now we have BUT and IF.

BUT and IF followed in very quick succesion THEN SURELY and DEATH.

How many tag alongs did SIN bring to the table in these matters. Have we even begun to measure that fact into this picture yet?

Adam was made SUBJECT to the POTENTIAL to FAIL. Adam was NOT Perfect because of being BOUND by His own Maker to be subject UNTO that frailty.

Adam was GOD'S son. (Luke 3:38)

Are we really willing to say how FREE Adam WASN'T, him being God's son??? Did God "really" have A SON that wasn't PERFECT?

And IF Adam WAS perfect as God's son...then just HOW is it that Adam was MADE SUBJECT to that working of the DECEIVER?

In wrestling with these various observations simply falling into the pot of BLAME ADAM or BLAME EVE is a cop out. These matters are far more intricate and interesting in a multitude of ways.

For example, do you really think that God's son, Adam, was slated to spend all of live long eternity with his spirit/life bound into a wet compilation of DUST? Do you REALLY think that is ALL that God had in MIND for HIS son??? Of course not. Ridiculous.

We know from scripture there was a first man, a NATURAL man who was PLACED into FLESH. That flesh had some very SEVERE LIMITATIONS. Adam had to EAT. Adam had to BREATHE. Adam had to MOVE AROUND. Adam had to "do" many things. God did place Adam in the Garden to TEND it, so Adam even had to perhaps WORK although the Word doesn't disclose that God "advised" Adam of his "job description."

Adam was "lonely." Adam had to "think" of what to name animals, so he had to CREATE names for them.

Most of all however Adam, from the beginning was threatened. Threatened with DEATH. Did Adam even have any idea what DEATH was or what that might of consisted of? Adam perhaps even felt FEAR over that matter. Either Adam or Eve did after all recount God's Word of the first command FALSELY when Eve added to the command that they could not eat "OR EVEN TOUCH" that Tree. God didn't say THAT! Where did THAT come from? Didn't HEAR well there Eve? Adam LIE to you about the COMMAND?

No, Adam was for no uncertain fact NOT free. He had the limitations and restrictions that God Himself PLACED upon Adam. And AS IF God DIDN'T know? You think the SERPENT just slithered into the Garden all on it's OWN? No, God MADE that serpent and MADE that serpent CRAFTY and made both Adam and Eve SUBJECT TO DECEPTION from that ENTITY, whatever it was...but that DECEIVER was surely NOT THEM...but A SEPARATE POWER of DECEPTION by the DECEIVER that BOTH of them were subject to being INFLUENCED by...no different than how we REMAIN potentially INFLUENCED to this very day. All of us. In fact it took GOD HIMSELF coming INTO flesh to TRIUMPH over that DECEIVER. God Himself FINALLY triumphed over SATAN. And God DID so by the "power of death." By DYING Himself, even not deserving of DEATH. God DIED in the FLESH. That is no small matter. It is a POWER that EVEN GOD submitted His Own Flesh UNTO, yet TRIUMPHED over that POWER by HIS POWER which was and remains LIFE.

Did Adam have that kind of POWER? No. Could God not have MADE the power of DEATH? Of course. God can do ANYTHING. Adam could NOT. Adam was NOT GOD.

So, many say Adam LOST that day that he and Eve ate. I have also wondered just how LONG that "sixth day" really lasted. In God's time it could have been A VERY LONG time. We don't know really. I don't believe it was necessarily a 24 hour day. Could have been, but maybe not. Sorry, not a pure literalist. I believe there was a literal garden and a literal Adam, but there are many spiritual and anti-spiritual matters to contend with anytime we pick up the Word.

Freewill for Adam or any of mankind in the light of the facts is a LAUGHABLE pretense. God is not such a sloppy Father that He didn't know what He was doing or what was going to come down and it was not ADAM'S FATE to DESTROY DEATH it was GOD'S PLAN. It was not ADAM'S FATE to destroy SIN it was GOD'S PLAN.

Did God screw up? No. Adam was NOT CAPABLE of making CONTINUALLY PERFECT CHOICES. Only GOD can DO THAT.

And THAT is part of the object lesson that we get to SHARE in.

You WILL, I promise feel MUCH BETTER in your heart when you STOP blaming and accusing our fellow mankind, ADAM AND EVE. It's just not needed. If you want to play the judgment game, then get ALL the players to the table. We know that God is off the hook. But there is no small matter of SATAN'S ROLE in this event of Adam and Eve and ALL OF MANKIND since that time.

Just WHERE did JESUS show YOU where SATAN was anyway?

Satan is upon MANKIND. And only GOD can make that power GO AWAY. This is our HOPE and our PROMISE from HIM and HIS PROMISE is COMPLETELY SUFFICIENT for ALL when this "event" finally does transpire. But this has NOT happened yet. So in the meantime WE also do suffer BY GOD'S INTENTIONS. None of us here were EVER promised SINLESS FLESH or MIND. When we see that we are NOT ALONE in the flesh...our object lessons begin to SQUIRM. Fix your gaze in the mirror and you will see the power of indwelling SIN staring back at you and it's NOT leaving until YOU get a NEW BODY which is NOT SUBJECT to that working.

enjoy!

squint

Rick Otto · Aug 1, 2008

Squint, sometimes I don't understand you.
Sometimes I disagree with you, but always I admire you're lack of animosity, and I enjoy your humor.
I think one thing more important than ideology & theology is how we treat each other.
You're on my "A" list, brother.

Absolute truth · Aug 1, 2008

Carey said:
I am amzed this thread is still going hahahah

It would be so easy to believe the lie that we don't have free will.

Then we would not have to try to keep our conscious thought on God so we would not sin.

We would never have to apologize for doing wrong.

Why not? How does that change whether we are sorry for what we did? There is a major error in this whole understanding which absolutely denies your understanding.

Please listen closely. I do not believe in mans fabled will being free. I believe man has a will but it is not free to do good or evil without a cause.

With this said this does not stop me from seeking the face of the Lord for approval and guidance to do the right things in my life. I apologize to God every single day for anything that He reveals in my life is wrong and this happens when I do it. He uses my conscience to judge me. Because I study the word of God I know that when my conscience becomes burned I move to fix the problem and repent imediately. I continue on and pray that God grants me mercy not to do the same thing again. I pray for Him to fix this area of me and I move on.

Our will does not cause repentance but a repentant heart will cause our will to seek righteousness. If God does not change the heart than the heart will remain hardened. I pray everyday that He does not lead me into temptation. Why? because in temptation we all have a tendency to collapse under the weakest of pressure unless God gives us strength to overcome. Freewill? No!!! A change of heart which is what is needed.

We could be like children when they do wrong say its because my parents fight too much or because my parents got dicorced or my parents are drug addicts or wahtever is why I vandalized that property, stole things ,
hit that kid etc.

Only a brat spoiled rotten would want to believe such an obvious lie.

There is no excuse that will benifit us one iota. Why? because God knows the reason for our sinfull nature and is only interested in either suffering to allow the wicked to continue for the purpose of making known His power and Godhead by way of wrath, or, by granting mercy and love to those He has given a new heart to by way of His election and predestination. His choice, His responsibility. We are merely accountable.

I am merely accountable but I continue to die daily and seek after the righteousness OF Christ. The flesh profits nothing, not even correction, unless God is truly interested in our rotting diseased bodies learning all of this to one day return back to dust and retain nothing. Of course that is not the case but you see my point.

God Bless, Dave

Absolute truth · Aug 1, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Originally Posted by PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter

Predestined according to foreknowledge or predestined according to sovereign right and choice? Why would God make us morally responsible if we did not have freedom to choose?

Ep repies: Predestined according to exhaustive determinism in my case, but not in such a way as to compromise the genuine and personal function of our will. We are responsible not because responsibility comes from "freedom" or autonomy, independance from our nature, but on the contrary, because responsibility comes from the genuineness of our behavior to our nature. Our choices flow from our nature, thus we are guilty when we sin, because it is our own soul sinning after all, lusting and longing in and of itself after it.

Awesome enough answer for me Ep, but the usual reply is to connect guilt to responsibility without regard to motive. So Isaiah 45:7 gets redefined or trivialised & marginalized, predestination gets washed out by being generalized, foreknowledge reduced to clairvoyance, election democratized and narrowed to those who vote for themselves.

This is exactly the same thing I said earlier but without the clarity. Awsome post Rick and I would love to see someone address this.

It is cut and dried on this point. It utterly amazes me how someone can hold to a false doctrine in place of absolute truth. To claim freewill for man absolutely opposes the will, purpose, predestination, and forknowledge of God.

It is mans neverending quest to be as the most high and to ascend above the throne of God and nothing will stop them from claiming this power. Not even the very word of God which becomes utterly butchered to comply with the doctrines of men.

Can anyone deny this statement Rick has brought to light here????

God Bless, Dave

Absolute truth · Aug 1, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Squint, sometimes I don't understand you.
Sometimes I disagree with you, but always I admire you're lack of animosity, and I enjoy your humor.
I think one thing more important than ideology & theology is how we treat each other.
You're on my "A" list, brother.

I second that!!! :clap:

squint · Aug 1, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Squint, sometimes I don't understand you.

When reading the scriptures Rick you and I and everyone else who picks up The Word WILL be confronted with THE THIEF of The Word. That's WHY "all" these subjects of discourse are difficult and "we" are slow Rick. Adam had the identical problem. When the "command" came SIN was empowered and aroused. That was NOT Adam, but what "his flesh and mind" were made subject to. Paul defines this process and procedure as being placed under the "elemental things" for tutelage. That's what God has done with ALL of His offspring, ALL MANKIND.

Sometimes I disagree with you, but always I admire you're lack of animosity, and I enjoy your humor.

Thanks Bro! Love you too!

I think one thing more important than ideology & theology is how we treat each other.
You're on my "A" list, brother.

The only thing that "counts" is faith which works thru Love. When God takes you to that dry ground The Word opens up to LIFE.

enjoy!

squint

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter · Aug 1, 2008

Epiphoskei said:
Predestined according to exhaustive determinism in my case, but not in such a way as to compromise the genuine and personal function of our will. We are responsible not because responsibility comes from "freedom" or autonomy, independance from our nature, but on the contrary, because responsibility comes from the genuineness of our behavior to our nature. Our choices flow from our nature, thus we are guilty when we sin, because it is our own soul sinning after all, lusting and longing in and of itself after it.

So how then did Adam come to sin? Was he not created with a sinless nature in your opinion? If he was created with a sinless nature and he had no free will, then God had to will Adam to sin. An equally important and more confusing question would be how did the angels come to choose Satan over God? All a part of God's will that they do that? To say man has no free will is to say that God wills sin.

Go Cards!

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter · Aug 1, 2008

Absolute truth said:
Absolute truth said:

It is cut and dried on this point. It utterly amazes me how someone can hold to a false doctrine in place of absolute truth. To claim freewill for man absolutely opposes the will, purpose, predestination, and forknowledge of God.

Click to expand...

I see from your name, Absolute Truth, what you desire . . . truth. And that is admirable. But it's what we're all looking for. And scholars much more learned than I for sure, and perhaps you (I really don't know you that well) have debated this for years and years. It's not going to be solved and or settled in this age.

It is my opinion, as I observe life and interpret the Scriptures that man has free will. But to be perfectly honest with you I can see the validity and truth behind both positions. I realize I may be somewhat of a fence rider . . . but that's ok. I see truth being a little broader than that, more three dimensional and diamond shaped rather than flat and black and white. For sure there are areas that are cut and dry . . . just don't think this is one of them.

What I like about GT is that arguements can be given in support of both sides of the issue -- I'm definitely not trying to persuade anyone, simply trying to arrive at a deeper level of understanding.

It is mans neverending quest to be as the most high and to ascend above the throne of God and nothing will stop them from claiming this power. Not even the very word of God which becomes utterly butchered to comply with the doctrines of men.

Click to expand...

Is it your thought AT that all who believe in free will are making some wild attempt to rise above God? Quite a claim! I don't think one should dump everyone who has a different doctrinal stance than yours, onto the heretical scrap heap.

In your determinism, do you consider yourself an apocatastatic?

Go Cards!

Alethes · Aug 1, 2008

Alethes · Aug 1, 2008

toirewadokodesuka said:
I'm suprised how many people think "will" means the same as "free will". Ever heard of an "adjective"?

A will that is not free is a will that is controlled or possessed by an incorporeal force. Did something take over your mind and made you post in this thread? Or did you freely decide to do so. Are you saved? If so, how did you get saved? Were you pre-programmed like a robot? Is this this the image of God you have planted in your mind?

I'm sorry, but one would have to either be blind as a bat or dumber than dumb not clearly see that God created man with freedom of will to choose and the responsibility that goes along with this privilege which is given to us by God.

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 1, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Squint, sometimes I don't understand you.
Sometimes I disagree with you, but always I admire you're lack of animosity, and I enjoy your humor.
I think one thing more important than ideology & theology is how we treat each other.
You're on my "A" list, brother.

Agreed.
(Hey man, I only noticed now but r those nuns tokin in ur avvy?)

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 1, 2008

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter said:
So how then did Adam come to sin? Was he not created with a sinless nature in your opinion? If he was created with a sinless nature and he had no free will, then God had to will Adam to sin. An equally important and more confusing question would be how did the angels come to choose Satan over God? All a part of God's will that they do that? To say man has no free will is to say that God wills sin.

Go Cards!

Whether / not man has a free will or just a regular will, I still think God wills for there to be evil. This is illustrated in the book of Job, where God is commanding Satan to afflict Job.

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 1, 2008

Alethes said:
A will that is not free is a will that is controlled or possessed by an incorporeal force. Did something take over your mind and made you post in this thread? Or did you freely decide to do so.

Thats like asking if I can prove the existence of God... how can I prove the will is free when I cant even see it?

Alethes said:
Are you saved? If so, how did you get saved? Were you pre-programmed like a robot? Is this this the image of God you have planted in your mind?

Unconditional love...

Whether you consider the human will free / determined, it is still programmed.

Alethes said:
I'm sorry, but one would have to either be blind as a bat or dumber than dumb not clearly see that God created man with freedom of will to choose and the responsibility that goes along with this privilege which is given to us by God.

Note : created and programmed equate the same.

Unless you're saying the human will is 100% free, I see no reason to disagree with you. (In other words, I believe the will is basically 50% free and 50% bound.)

50% bound, cus humans suffer from addictions : sex, drugs and so on. Retardations. Evil as a fused part of the psyche. And God monipulating the self, i.e. God hardening Pharoas heart.

50% free, cus we cant see God and demons and so on. We dont feel like we are under control.

Alethes · Aug 1, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Exactly.
We speak of free will as well as accident & random chance in casual conversation, but from a divine, omnipotent & omniscient perspective they are delusions.

To speak of free will from a divine, omnipotent and omniscient perspective one needs to go to the Word of God. Anything outside of God's Word is a delusion.

The Word of God tells us that God created man with the freedom of will to choose: life or death.

Jeremiah 21:8 . . . I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.

God gave man the ability to choose whom he will serve: God or Satan.

Joshua 24:15:
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

"Choose" - Hebrew - bachar = to choose, elect, decide for

One does not need to have a college degree to understand the meaning of the word "choose." That man has been given the freedom of will to live his life for God or for himself is made crystal clear in the Word of God.

It really amazes me that this issue is even up for debate. Because the Word of God is so full of examples of men exercising their God-given freedom of will to choose; to say otherwise, is to teach a false doctrine, a "delusion" which is from the Devil.

I Timothy 4:1:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

JAL · Aug 2, 2008

Absolute truth said:
This is exactly the same thing I said earlier but without the clarity. Awsome post Rick and I would love to see someone address this.

It is cut and dried on this point. It utterly amazes me how someone can hold to a false doctrine in place of absolute truth. To claim freewill for man absolutely opposes the will, purpose, predestination, and forknowledge of God.

It is mans neverending quest to be as the most high and to ascend above the throne of God and nothing will stop them from claiming this power. Not even the very word of God which becomes utterly butchered to comply with the doctrines of men.

Can anyone deny this statement Rick has brought to light here????

God Bless, Dave

Funny, you sound disappointed in the free willies, upset with with their theological behavior.

But why be disappointed in them? They had no choice in the matter, right? When they post on this forum, aren't they just acting according to the deterministic nature given to them by God? You judge them as haughty - but isn't God, ultimately, the author of their haughtiness? Now we have a contradiction. God is supposedly good, but actually the instigator of evil.

Let me emphasize that word again: CONTRADICTION. Sorry to disappoint you, but my experience does not confirm that Scripture is our best guide in ascertaining truth. More important even than Scripture is the law of noncontradiction because (1) contradictions are usually easy to spot and (2) no matter how brilliant your exegesis, if it leads to contradictions we can be confident of error.

Here's one of my favorite examples. For 2000 years the church has taught the following contradiction:

God is immutable.
God became man.

I don't care how brilliant are the theologians who teach this nonsense - I'm still going to consider this kind of conclusion as idiotic no matter how many Einstins perpetuate it. Fact is, people are almost universally irrational when it comes to religion (they believe whatever the heck they WANT to believe).

Calvinism holds to the following nonsense:

God is just (punishes only those who are truly guilty).
There is no such thing as free will.

Absurd. Now, I am willing to grant the possibility of post-Fall total depravity (i.e. original sin) whereby men no longer have sufficient freedom of the will to opt for God. But this isn't the same as altogether denying the very CONCEPT of human freedom.

On this thread some of the determinists have alluded to the argument:
(1) All human acts must have a cause.
(2) Therefore men are not free, because something causes them to act as they do.

This argument is mere question-begging. It assumes precisely what is to be proven (that freedom of choice is not a cause of human behavior). Yes, I do agree that all human acts have a cause - but in many cases, the CAUSE of their behavior is free choice.

We need a theological system free of contradiction. If this means we must acquiesce to freedom, so be it.

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 2, 2008

Alethes said:
You appear to be a very confused person, Your answers make you look rather ridiculous. How old are you? Four, five or six years old?

I find that offensive.
Let me ask you a question. Can you prove the will is free?

Note : You asked how one gets saved in your previous post. I answered, "unconditional love". Why do you think that is?

Also, about retardation. People that suffer with things like bipolar disorder, and other mental diseases / retardations. Are they free? Do they have a choice in that disease? People that are demonically possessed. Them? People that don't even know they are oppressed, or have a disease. Free? People that can't stop their addictions. Free? What exactly does free mean? 1. We can't see God, and have no idea what he is doing. The same goes for demons and so on. So how can we say for sure that we are free from such presences? 2. Most of us live hectic lives, working endless hours to support a family. And at the same time support and nuture our own wants and needs. Free? 3. 10 years from now, or 5 years in the past, the person I was and now am differ emencely. People change. Their ambitions change. And have regrets about what they did. And for some the feeling of vanity, and nothing has been accomplished in their lives (King solomon). Or maybe you become some bumb on the street. Free?

There is a completely different realm beyond want we perceive, with beings completely infatuated with our distruction / good favour. We know that Angels are good, but Demons are not. Do you think they need our permission to afflict us? I don't think so. In the story of Job, it had nothing to do with wants /needs. This was Satan / God monipulating the life of Job as they so pleased. Satan to afflict him, and God to test him.

But I've said enough here. What do you think?

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 2, 2008

Alethes said:
To speak of free will from a divine, omnipotent and omniscient perspective one needs to go to the Word of God. Anything outside of God's Word is a delusion.

The Word of God tells us that God created man with the freedom of will to choose: life or death.

Jeremiah 21:8 . . . I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.

God gave man the ability to choose whom he will serve: God or Satan.

Joshua 24:15:
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

"Choose" - Hebrew - bachar = to choose, elect, decide for

And yet there is no adjective : free. But even if there was, free can mean a number of things. Freely?

Perhaps this is the way God has chosen to speak to us because it is the easiest. We don't see half the things that are actually going on. (Genesis doesn't describe heaven) Perhaps we aren't ready. Most of us aren't ready I think. I think if we saw things with a new understanding, we'd be very shocked. (The eyes of angels)

Alethes said:
One does not need to have a college degree to understand the meaning of the word "choose." That man has been given the freedom of will to live his life for God or for himself is made crystal clear in the Word of God.

One does not need a college degree to understand that "choice" and "choice" + "that is free from any external manipulation" dont mean the same either. First you get the noun, then the adjective. Then you need something that describes the adjective. We know that predestination is described in the bible, but free will is not. So the phrase "free will" or "choose freely" is really meaningless.

I think free will vs predestination, is like heaven vs. earth. Genesis describes earth, cus heaven is irrelevant, and we not ready for it. Same with the will.

Alethes said:
It really amazes me that this issue is even up for debate. Because the Word of God is so full of examples of men exercising their God-given freedom of will to choose; to say otherwise, is to teach a false doctrine, a "delusion" which is from the Devil.
I Timothy 4:1:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hmm, well you haven't actually given a verse that describes this idea in detail.

It's like if I say : the argahoptis ballon. What does argahoptis mean? Free will : what does free mean? Predestinated will. What does predestination mean? Well, I know predestination is described, but what of free?

Alethes · Aug 2, 2008

toirewadokodesuka said:
And yet there is no adjective : free. But even if there was, free can mean a number of things. Freely?

Perhaps this is the way God has chosen to speak to us because it is the easiest. We don't see half the things that are actually going on. (Genesis doesn't describe heaven) Perhaps we aren't ready. Most of us aren't ready I think. I think if we saw things with a new understanding, we'd be very shocked. (The eyes of angels)

One does not need a college degree to understand that "choice" and "choice" + "that is free from any external manipulation" dont mean the same either. First you get the noun, then the adjective. Then you need something that describes the adjective. We know that predestination is described in the bible, but free will is not. So the phrase "free will" or "choose freely" is really meaningless.

I think free will vs predestination, is like heaven vs. earth. Genesis describes earth, cus heaven is irrelevant, and we not ready for it. Same with the will.

Hmm, well you haven't actually given a verse that describes this idea in detail.

It's like if I say : the argahoptis ballon. What does argahoptis mean? Free will : what does free mean? Predestinated will. What does predestination mean? Well, I know predestination is described, but what of free?

I have yet to see a genuine logical response by you to any of my posts. It is obvious that you do not truly want proof of free will and use every excuse you can possibly conjure up in order to free yourself of the responsibility you have before God for your wrongful deeds or actions. The proof is clearly seen and written in Genesis to Revelation and you are without excuse.

You have utterly failed to disprove God created man with the freedom of will to choose to obey or disobey Him. Your scenario of physical sickness, disease and mental disorders ,which are the result of sin and unbelief that is in the world, does not in any way negates the truth that God created man with 100%-freedom of will to choose. You have no Scripture to support what is all talk and nothing more.

Your description of man is that of a robot, a thing, that has no mind at all, who is programmed to do whatever its creator wants him do. What a pathetic picture to have of oneself ... and of God, who created man in His own image and with the freedom of will to choose for himself to love and worship Him from a willing heart. To have this false image of yourself and of God you cannot possible know or discern the difference between the true God and the false god of this world; Satan/the Devil, with his host of evil spirits, which control and possess peoples' mind to make them do what he wills them to do. You've got it all backwards.

Now I decisively choose by my God-given 100% freedom of will, which is my living proof, to no longer participate in this fruitless debate with you or anyone else who believes you have no choice to be totally illogical and damning in your understanding of God whose nature is all righteous, just and loving.

I only hope that you will wake up before it is too late.

How was Adam able to sin, if he wasn't created with sin?

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The Dude Abides

Absolute truth

Guest

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He's not a man! He's a machine!

He's not a man! He's a machine!

Born to Live/Born Again to Serve

Born to Live/Born Again to Serve

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Born to Live/Born Again to Serve

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