What is sin according to MJ?

sin is missing the mark, so if there was no god there would be no mark...but that's semantics as we all know there IS god.

so without Christ there could have been no shame, no sin? (if he created everything)

And things like Romans 2 prompt me to think that it's likely the law is not as necessary written as we like to make it out to be

Maybe you just need to let G_d be G-d and dwell less on your, and our humanity

but sitting back and accepting lackluster explanations of important sticking points that are touted as the "foundation" of Christianity that have very little to do with the actual sacrifice Christ made seems rather... like watching someone misrepresent your heart to the world. This is my heart. He is my world. To see Him misrepresented is to me abhorent.

But saying that Christ is being misrepresented is, surely, just a very subjective statement by you since it is not provable other than by your thoughts on the matter (or we would have the conclusive, Biblical evidence in front of us). That others do not necessarily see it that way should not be taken as categorical evidence that you alone are right and everyone else is wrong - I am NOT saying that in a patronising way - it may just be the other way round or it may just be that we all need to understand, better, just what G_d is saying and doing on this issue, without getting wound up by it when others disagree us.

I Cor. 11:19

sure, but the fact that people can't answer questions is telling isn't it? it gets played off as "well you don't understand" but if I don't understand you should be able to explain it, and if you can't, there's some problem with what you believe or why you believe it.

Ten Commandments were not an afterthought by God, given to just the Jews to keep them in line. The Ten Commandments has always been in existence, why?....because they reflect the very nature and character of God.

There are references in scripture that describe the Ten Commandments and they are also used to describe the character of God.

Romans 16:26: God is Eternal
Psalms 111:7-8: The law is Eternal

Isaiah 5:16: God is Holy
Romans 7:12: The law is Holy

I John 4:8: God is Love
Romans 13:10: The law is Love

Psalms 145:17: God is Righteous
Psalms 119:172: The law is Righteous

Deuteronomy 32:4: God is Truth
Psalms 119:142: The law is Truth

Luke 18:19: God is Good
Romans 7:12: The law is Good

I John 1:5: God is Light
Proverbs 6:23: The law is Light

1 John 3:3: God is Pure
Psalms 19:8: The law is Pure

Psalms 48:1: God is Great
Hosea 8:12: The law is Great

John 4:24: God is Spiritual
Romans 7:14: The law is Spiritual

Mathew 5:48: God is Perfect
Psalms 19:7: The law is Perfect

Deuteronomy 32:4: God is Just
Romans 7:12: The law is Just

I don't think you can separate God from His Law.

Proof of the eternal existence of the Ten Commandments can be found by looking at the original sin committed by Lucifer.

Remember that the Bible clearly defines sin as the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

If there had been no Ten Commandment law then there could have been no transgression of the law and no sin.

Sin caused the war in heaven. Lucifer became jealous and coveted what God had and wanted God's position. Isaiah 14:12-14 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

From the beginning, Satan...
Joh 8:44 - Show Context
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Proof of the eternal existence of the Ten Commandments can be found by looking at the original sin committed by Lucifer.

Remember that the Bible clearly defines sin as the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

If there had been no Ten Commandment law then there could have been no transgression of the law and no sin.

Sin caused the war in heaven. Lucifer became jealous and coveted what God had and wanted God's position. Isaiah 14:12-14 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

From the beginning, Satan...
Joh 8:44 - Show Context
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

and if you can't, there's some problem with what you believe or why you believe it.

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Why should that be the case? Are you, then, saying that you fully understand every part of what you believe? Where then is faith? That, surely, is Gnosticism - salvation by certain knowledge rather than by faith in Yeshua. Can you explain everything about G_d? That is why I mentioned Job, earlier.

Not all, by any means, know all the answers - if the Bible is not clear on an issue then we must try, however falteringly, to understand what it means but in that seeking of understanding we must be prepared to accept that others may not know the full answer either, or they may know! Together, we may get nearer to the truth but not if are not willing to accept the steps forward laid by others.

I do not think that any of those posting on this thread have, for the slightest moment, wished to mis-represent Yeshua. All folk are doing is trying to help you to find an answer from their own poor understanding. I think you neeed to be gracious enough to accept that fact and recognise that there are others, like you, who continue to seek the truth and speak of what they understand with humility and love.

visionary said:

Ten Commandments were not an afterthought by God, given to just the Jews to keep them in line. The Ten Commandments has always been in existence, why?....because they reflect the very nature and character of God.

There are references in scripture that describe the Ten Commandments and they are also used to describe the character of God.

Romans 16:26: God is Eternal
Psalms 111:7-8: The law is Eternal
The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time.

Isaiah 5:16: God is Holy
Romans 7:12: The law is Holy
Qadosh literally means "to be set apart for a special purpose" so yes, the law is set apart for a special purpose...

I John 4:8: God is Love
Romans 13:10: The law is Love
As a verb this word means "to provide and protect what is given as a privilege" as well as " to have an intimacy of action and emotion".

Psalms 145:17: God is Righteous
Psalms 119:172: The law is Righteous
The problem with the word tsadiyq, and its verb form tsadaq, is that there are no uses of this word in its concrete meaning. The next method is to compare how the word in question is paralleled with other Hebrew words as commonly found in the poetical passages of the Bible. Sometimes these parallels will be synonyms and other times antonyms. When we look at the word tsadiyq we find that it is commonly paralleled with the word "rasha". Rasha is usually translated as "wicked" but has a concrete meaning of "to depart from the path and become lost". From this we can conclude that a tsadiyq is one who remains on the path. The path is the course through life which God has directed us on.


Deuteronomy 32:4: God is Truth
Psalms 119:142: The law is Truth
The word "emet" has the meaning of firmness, something that is firmly set in place. Psalmes 119:142 says, "the 'Torah' (the teachings of God) is 'emet' (set firmly in place).

Luke 18:19: God is Good
Romans 7:12: The law is Good
The word tov would best be translated with the word "functional".

I John 1:5: God is Light
Proverbs 6:23: The law is Light
owr meaning bright/clear...

1 John 3:3: God is Pure
Psalms 19:8: The law is Pure
bar... clean/clear... pretty much the same idea as light

Psalms 48:1: God is Great
Hosea 8:12: The law is Great
great - gadowl
large - in number, in intensity, loud, older, large in importance

John 4:24: God is Spiritual
Romans 7:14: The law is Spiritual
The Hebrew word ru'ach literally means the wind and is derived from the parent root rach a prescribed path.

Mathew 5:48: God is Perfect
Psalms 19:7: The law is Perfect

The word tam can be best defined as “mature in
thought and action” and is the parent root of the verb tamam
meaning to be whole, finished or completed. From this​

verb comes the word tamiym- perfect
if the law was completed in Psalms then it was not completed with Christ was it?

Deuteronomy 32:4: God is Just
Romans 7:12: The law is Just
just - righteous - tsadiyq same general idea

I don't think you can separate God from His Law.

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I think that the words used assume too much in today's culture and while the comparisons are the same, you can compare many things and find similarities. Not to mention, most of them don't mean in the original language (not my words, but from a jewish site) what they meant.

somehow, none of these things indicate the presence of the law before they were given.

visionary said:

Proof of the eternal existence of the Ten Commandments can be found by looking at the original sin committed by Lucifer.

Remember that the Bible clearly defines sin as the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

If there had been no Ten Commandment law then there could have been no transgression of the law and no sin.

Sin caused the war in heaven. Lucifer became jealous and coveted what God had and wanted God's position. Isaiah 14:12-14 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

From the beginning, Satan...
Joh 8:44 - Show Context
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Click to expand...

so you believe the angels in heaven are on the same level as human beings? that we are of the same make and mettle that they are beholden to the law in the same way we are and benefit or suffer from it accordingly?

I don't doubt anyone's intent or love for God or desire for truth. I just doubt the answers because they don't ring true to my spirit.

Torah was progressively revealed.... and according to Rabbinic doctrine still is .....

in the Garden there was one "Law" - "don't eat this one fruit"
after the fall we know that sacrifices were known (and therefore there must have been a knowledge of some sins) - see Kain and Havel story
murder was known to be a violation - again see what Kain said to HaShem after he killed Havel
titihing was known - see story of Avraham and Malkitzedek
later, for example, we know that fornication was known to be a sin - see Yaacov story...

and so on and so forth......

personally it looks to me that "the Law" was known to all people in it's progressive revelation as there is no indication that HaShem spoke specifically to anyone about these things until.....

Mt Sinai..... where He asked Israel if they would willingly take on the cloak of the Whole Torah - to which they replied "we will do and we will hear" (i.e. we will obey and THEN seek to understand, NOT we will obey if and when we understand)

Rabbinic midrash states that HaShem offered the Whole Torah to all the peoples of the earth and that they all turned Him down except Israel....

ElsanRandiMom said:

so you believe the angels in heaven are on the same level as human beings? that we are of the same make and mettle that they are beholden to the law in the same way we are and benefit or suffer from it accordingly?

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Now scriptures state that we are a little lower than angels, but later we wll be in a position to judge angels. We will never be in the same sphere as angels for they are spirit and we are dust/flesh.

I give you good instruction; do not forsake My Torah. A tree of life it is for those who take hold of it, and blessed are the ones who support it. It's ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it's paths are peace.

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That tree of life was there in the beginning, in the garden, it should have been what was chosen but instead the other one was.

We struggle all our days to get to that tree of life and that tree of life is the word of G-d, his Torah, Yeshua, the word that was in the beginning.

Omein!

ElsanRandiMom said:

I don't doubt anyone's intent or love for God or desire for truth. I just doubt the answers because they don't ring true to my spirit.

Click to expand...

Is your spirit in agreement with scripture?

Feelings don't matter - what matters is what the Holy One, blessed be He, has commanded.

Here's a scripture that shows there was all sorts of "instruction" or torah before Mt. Sinai.

Genesis 26
“I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

Even though we gentiles weren't officially given the law, we know about what is right or wrong (sin).

Roman's 2:14 For whenever gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Roman's 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law

Hope this helps,

I just want to follow on from Henaynei thoughts for a minute.

My understanding is that the law shows us what G-d considers sin. So if there is no law, then there can be sin. Same as with law today. If there is no law forbidding riding a bike without a helmet, one can do so without the fear of a penalty. So as soon as they make a law forbidding the riding of a bike without a helmet, then if we continue to do so, we are now breaking the law and we will be subject to a penalty.

So I question, if there was no law from G-d until Sinai, then;
why was it a sin for Cain to kill Abel,
how could Noah be righteous? righteous about what?
how could G-d say that the world was evil, and cause a flood to wipe out the earth, if no one knew what G-d expected of them?
Why was it wrong for the King to take Abram's wife as his own?
How could G-d destroy Sodom if no one knew they were doing wrong?
Why was Abraham bargaining to save the righteous?
Why was it wrong for Joseph's brothers so sell him.
Why was it wrong for Joseph to sleep with his masters wife?

The list goes on and on, and no were do I see it written, that because of these attrocities that were committed by these people, was the reason that G-d realised that He needed to set down some laws for people to live by. Personally I think, the more I look and read, the more it points to the fact that these people must have had a standard of laws and living that are very similar today, if judged by the issues that were raised as "Wrong doing", and that these "laws" must have come from G-d, as He is the One who was chastising them when they walked astray.
Just my thoughts.

Just a by-the-way, someone said in the opening page, that the Menorah icon that I carry, denoted Judeo Christian. I was of the understanding that it denoted non trinitarian, and personally I don't really understand what a Judeo Christian is anyway. All these tags get confusing at times.
Anyway, if the Menorah has been changed to mean something else, I need to change it. Just wondering.

Sin is not breaking G_d's law - sin is all about being disobedient to G_d's will. His will can be communicated to us in a variety of ways - even through a donkey! Let's not just put sin down to transgression of written texts - that's only a part of it.