The Theory Of Creation

champuru · Jul 24, 2008

Oliver said:
This is not how this works in Science or math. By that logic, I can "prove" faeries exists, the invisible unicorn exist, we really do reincarnate as bouhdist believe (I think?), and so on and so forth. This is certainly not the level of evidence I would accept, and not suitable in science either.

I don't have enough time to enter into the details, but I think you misunderstand the impossibility of testing omnipotence: by definition of omnipotence (i.e. God can do everything), you simply cannot test it.

I agree with you that it is impossible to test for God. To do so would be (in my opinion) against both science and religion. Science is used to gain knowledge about the world around us (and the universe as a whole) by natural means. So by definition, any supernatural being is outside of science. Religion is based on faith. Faith is to believe in something though you dont have absolute knowledge about it. So if you have absolute proof about God, faith would be void, and religion would cease to exist because it would just be a fact.

btw you were right, buddhists believe in reincarnation. It is different from believing that your soul goes into another being after death (such as hinduism believes). Just FYI :asd:

juvenissun · Jul 24, 2008

Oliver said:
This is not how this works in Science or math. By that logic, I can "prove" faeries exists, the invisible unicorn exist, we really do reincarnate as bouhdist believe (I think?), and so on and so forth. This is certainly not the level of evidence I would accept, and not suitable in science either.

I don't have enough time to enter into the details, but I think you misunderstand the impossibility of testing omnipotence: by definition of omnipotence (i.e. God can do everything), you simply cannot test it: whatever the test you can imagine to test its power, an omnipotent being is by definition supposed to be able to do more than what you test him for.

Likewise, it is impossible to test the existence of beings which would not be accessible to any of our senses or measure devices (like Mallon's magic rock which cannot be seen, felt, heard, ...).

How do you test that the speed of light is not surpassable? Until we can do that, we say: the speed of light is not surpassable. What is wrong with this logic? If you can not prove one thing is wrong, then it is right. Basically, that is what falsifiable means.

In terms of test an omnipotent God, what are you going to test Him if you assume He is omnipotent? It follows the same logic. If we could not make a test to show that His power is limited, then He is omnipotent. This is certainly a falsifiable case. The competition between Jehovah and Baal (I King 18) is an example.

juvenissun · Jul 24, 2008

champuru said:
I agree with you that it is impossible to test for God. To do so would be (in my opinion) against both science and religion. Science is used to gain knowledge about the world around us (and the universe as a whole) by natural means. So by definition, any supernatural being is outside of science. Religion is based on faith. Faith is to believe in something though you dont have absolute knowledge about it. So if you have absolute proof about God, faith would be void, and religion would cease to exist because it would just be a fact.

btw you were right, buddhists believe in reincarnation. It is different from believing that your soul goes into another being after death (such as hinduism believes). Just FYI

When we test God, we may test Him by science. We may also test Him by logic of other content. When make a test, it does not have to use scientific content. So, falsify is not a term restricted to be used on scientific knowledge.

Religions can also be tested. That is why some people believe in Buddha and some people believe in Jesus. The choice passed through their personal tests.

Wiccan_Child · Jul 25, 2008

juvenissun said:
How do you test that the speed of light is not surpassable? Until we can do that, we say: the speed of light is not surpassable. What is wrong with this logic?

Nothing. By postulating a speed limit on information, matter, and energy, we come up with a new theory: Special Relativity. This makes certain testable predictions, and if any one of these predictions came out wrong, we could throw out

juvenissun said:
If you can not prove one thing is wrong, then it is right. Basically, that is what falsifiable means.

What? No it's not ^_^

. Ever heard of Russel's Teapot? If you can't prove something wrong, then you can't prove it wrong. That doesn't mean it isn't wrong, though.

juvenissun said:
In terms of test an omnipotent God, what are you going to test Him if you assume He is omnipotent?

You can't test for omnipotence, even if God himself comes down with a flurry of angels and trumpets and whatnot, and says "Ask me to do anything". No matter how many tasks he completes, that does not demonstrate that he is omnipotent, merely super-duper-potent.

juvenissun said:
It follows the same logic. If we could not make a test to show that His power is limited, then He is omnipotent.

Don't be daft ^_^

. Your logic leads to a rather nifty logical paradox:

Can you think of a test to prove God's existence?
No.
Therefore, God exists.

Can you think of a test to prove God's non-existence?
No.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.

Congrats, you just obliterated the law of excluded middle.

juvenissun · Jul 25, 2008

Wiccan_Child said:
Can you think of a test to prove God's existence?
No.
Therefore, God exists.

Click to expand...

Yes. I can. And I have given some examples.

Can you think of a test to prove God's non-existence?
No.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.

Click to expand...

As I repeated: what is the quality of the test? Who is the one to do the test? Just like in any science experiment, these pre-conditions are very important. A person dropped off high school CAN make some tests on the Relativity. But how accountable is his test? If you are qualified to test God, then God is perfectly testable.

-----

I wonder how many times I have to repeat this theme.

Wiccan_Child · Jul 25, 2008

juvenissun said:
Yes. I can. And I have given some examples.

And as was explained, they were not valid tests: they didn't test for the thing you claimed they were testing for.

juvenissun said:
As I repeated: what is the quality of the test?

For one thing, the results have to differ depending on the thing being tested. For example, if you're testing for the existence of leprechauns, then the outcome of the test must be X if leprechauns do exist, or Y if leprechauns don't exist. If the outcome of the test is totally independent of whether leprechauns exist or not, then that's a bloody daft test.

juvenissun said:
Who is the one to do the test?

Anyone can do it. But, generally, experts are the only people capable of understanding just what is being tested for, interpreting the results, and devising the test in the first place. Moreover, some experiments can be quite dangerous indeed: the LHC is not a toy.

You can test for God, but you have to show that you are indeed testing for God, and not something completely different.

juvenissun said:
Just like in any science experiment, these pre-conditions are very important. A person dropped off high school CAN make some tests on the Relativity. But how accountable is his test? If you are qualified to test God, then God is perfectly testable.

Like I said, qualifications are only important when it comes to devising a test: some concepts are complicated, and would pass completely over the head of the layman.

Now, do you have a test for God's existence? If so, what is it, and how would the outcome change depending on whether or not God exists?

juvenissun said:
I wonder how many times I have to repeat this theme.

Until you understand the fundamental flaws in your arguments.

Oliver · Jul 25, 2008

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juvenissun said:
How do you test that the speed of light is not surpassable?

juvenissun said:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Some test have been carried out to test the consequences of such an hypothesis (see Michelson experiments or search for the experiments which confirmed special relativity). What you have to understand is that it's not simply about "finding something which goes faster".[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

juvenissun said:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Until we can do that, we say: the speed of light is not surpassable. What is wrong with this logic?

Nothing. But do you see the difference between the current theories about the speed of light, and Lastthursdayism? In the first case, there are tests which, if they failed, would disprove the theory. In the other case however, nothing can disprove it: if you find something which appears to be older than last thursday, then it's just assumed to have been created this way, and it "just looks like" it's old. In the end, wether lastthursdayism is true or not makes no difference as to how the world looks like (Im not talking about philosophy here).

This is the difference between something falsifiable and something which is not.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

juvenissun said:
[/FONT]
In terms of test an omnipotent God, what are you going to test Him if you assume He is omnipotent? It follows the same logic. If we could not make a test to show that His power is limited, then He is omnipotent. This is certainly a falsifiable case. The competition between Jehovah and Baal (I King 18) is an example.

I don't have the time to push this argument, since I'll be away from keyboard for a few weeks. I admit that this example (the monipotence of God) is probably not the best example.

See you in mid August if you're still discussing this subject :wave:

juvenissun · Jul 25, 2008

Wiccan_Child said:
Now, do you have a test for God's existence? If so, what is it, and how would the outcome change depending on whether or not God exists?

The test is:

Join a church. Tithe for at least one whole year.

See what happen.

Wiccan_Child · Jul 29, 2008

juvenissun said:
The test is:

Join a church. Tithe for at least one whole year.

See what happen.

I did just that for 11 years, and exactly nothing happened. Though I didn't tithe (I'm not a complete idiot).

Anyway, how is this a test for God? What, exactly, is being tested for? Religious experiences are experienced, so to speak, by people all over the world, regardless of which religion they belong to. So how does your 'test' in fact test for God? How does the outcome depend on whether or not God exists?

Tinker Grey · Jul 29, 2008

I've tithed all my life.

I hope to be able to talk my wife out of it in the coming years.

The primary benefit is that we should be able to save 10% of our gross if and when we stop tithing.

juvenissun · Jul 29, 2008

Wiccan_Child said:
I did just that for 11 years, and exactly nothing happened. Though I didn't tithe (I'm not a complete idiot).

Anyway, how is this a test for God? What, exactly, is being tested for? Religious experiences are experienced, so to speak, by people all over the world, regardless of which religion they belong to. So how does your 'test' in fact test for God? How does the outcome depend on whether or not God exists?

You do not understand this test for the same reason as you do not understand some test done in particle physics. You do not know the details and you have NO WAY to know if the test is a success or a failure.

You are simply a news reader. Real test is for committed people and only they can understand the nature of the test.

juvenissun · Jul 29, 2008

Tinker Grey said:
I've tithed all my life.

I hope to be able to talk my wife out of it in the coming years.

The primary benefit is that we should be able to save 10% of our gross if and when we stop tithing.

I think you are a Christian. Do you know what does it mean by giving thanks? Thanks for what? What if you do not give thanks? Would that make any difference? If not, you are qualified to claim that you are an atheist.

Thank your wife. Because of her, you can still make a comment in this forum. I am sure she knows that God answers her "test" to Him.

Wiccan_Child · Jul 30, 2008

juvenissun said:
You do not understand this test for the same reason as you do not understand some test done in particle physics.

On the contrary, a test in particle physics has a clear description of what is predicted to be obsered. Your 'test', however, simply says "See what happen." That's hardly the same.
Moreover, a test for the existence of something is only a test if the outcome actually depends on whether or not the thing exists. I would have thought this were obvious. We didn't test for the existence of a trans-Neptunian object by see how the ducks swam past in a lake, because the latter is completely independent of the former.

juvenissun said:
You do not know the details and you have NO WAY to know if the test is a success or a failure.

Well of course not! You haven't described what your test is supposed to accomplish. I'm guessing the Church-goer is supposed to have some sort of religious experience, be 'washed over by the Holy Spirit' or some such.

juvenissun said:
You are simply a news reader.

I beg your pardon?

juvenissun said:
Real test is for committed people and only they can understand the nature of the test.

Then leave the testing to us scientists. You don't even know what a test is .

Jerrell · Jul 30, 2008

Why in the world would u want to talk your wife out of tihting Tinker Grey ? It seems the world is becoming apostate. Don't curse yourself by trying to work against God and his Kingdom. Your wife is doing the right thing. Don't try to ruin it. It is because of her that you have been blessed because God rains on the just and unjust. I could go into biblical detail but I don't feel the need.

Jerrell · Jul 30, 2008

To be general no human mind will be able to explain creation with science. It will NEVER happen. Why do I know that? Because only God, the being that knows all, understands all, and comprehends all was present when he formed all that is and was. The human mind cannot wrap it's brain around the kowledge of God. We like to think we are smart, we like to think we know things, but we really don't.

2ti 3:7 "[Mankind in the World are] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"

Isa 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."

Mallon · Jul 30, 2008

Jerrell said:
The human mind cannot wrap it's brain around the kowledge of God.

Do you think that should stop us from trying?

Wiccan_Child · Jul 30, 2008

Jerrell said:
Why in the world would u want to talk your wife out of tihting Tinker Grey ?

Because it does exactly nothing to improve your relationship with God. Isn't that the goal of every Christian? How, exactly, does giving money to a church help anyone but the church?

Tinker Grey · Jul 30, 2008

Jerrell said:
Why in the world would u want to talk your wife out of tihting Tinker Grey ? It seems the world is becoming apostate. Don't curse yourself by trying to work against God and his Kingdom. Your wife is doing the right thing. Don't try to ruin it. It is because of her that you have been blessed because God rains on the just and unjust. I could go into biblical detail but I don't feel the need.

Perhaps you didn't notice my atheist icon.

juvenissun · Jul 30, 2008

Wiccan_Child said:
Because it does exactly nothing to improve your relationship with God. Isn't that the goal of every Christian? How, exactly, does giving money to a church help anyone but the church?

This is a very very illogical question.

Wiccan_Child · Jul 30, 2008

juvenissun said:
This is a very very illogical question.

Of course it is. The fact that you can't tell us why it's illogical is besides the point, right? Still waiting for your response to my other post, btw...

The Theory Of Creation

I don't know what I want to put here. Suggestions?

... and God saw that it was good.

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