Papacy question - moved posts

Originally posted by Stormy

It seems that you do indeed elevate the Pope far above that of a human man.

I do not believe there is one Catholic if presented to the Pope would not bow and kiss his ring.

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First, society elevates several people above that of a human man.  Take a look at the President of the United States.  Not only does he command respect but he deserves it.  The same goes for our Senators and Representatives.  In the military and police world, there exists a chain of command.  As the rank progresses, so does the importance of that person holding rank. 

Second, though many non-Catholics don't believe that St. Peter was the first Pope, they will use this verse to try to prove that it is wrong to pay any kind of homage to the Holy Father:
<BLOCKQUOTE><I>And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.</I> (Acts 10:25-26) "See? the Apostle Peter, whom <I>you</I> think was the first pope, refused homage..." etc. &nbsp;But what St. Peter refused was divine worship, not homage. &nbsp;He said <I>"I myself am also a man";</I> in other words, "Don't offer me the worship due God alone; I am but a man like you, and no man deserves divine worship".

The kissing of rings is rooted in the old tradition of expressing respect for an office, two of the most important symbols of which are the episcopal and papal rings. Kissing the ring was a public demonstration of the respect and honor due to the officeholder by virtue of their position.

Throughout St. Paul's epistles,&nbsp;he encourages Christians to greet each other with a holy kiss.&nbsp; So, no, I have no problem kissing the Holy Father.&nbsp; And, I have no problem removing my hat and placing my hand over my heart and facing the American Flag when the National Anthem is played.&nbsp; I have no problem pulling my car over to the side of the road when a funeral procession passes.&nbsp; All of this is done out of&nbsp;R-E-S-P-E-C-T (sorry, I couldn't resist Aretha!)&nbsp;and not worship.&nbsp; BIG difference.&nbsp;

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Originally posted by ChristDied4U!
I as well do not get or would never take orders from man...

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So you function independently at work or what?&nbsp;If the War on Terror progresses as to the draft being re-instated, would you ignore that order?&nbsp;

Originally posted by ChristDied4U!
So basically what we have here is as Stormy put it...a bunch of very conflicting statements. I as well do not get or would never take orders from man...the Pope still is man...very human indeed...no better than I in my book. As he did not die on the cross of calvary for my sins...nor can he personally give me the Holy Spirit. The Pope can not get me to heaven...nor save my soul...but Catholics place such a great deal of importance in him for some reason.

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I think Catholics place more emphasis on Mary.&nbsp; By the way I'm not Catholic.&nbsp; But in anycase, the Pope is a 'father' figure.&nbsp; After all 'pope' comes from 'papa' which means father.

Honestly I don't see what the big deal is about the pope.&nbsp; I have more 'problems' with the emphasis on Mary =P

God bless!

-Jason

CHRISTDIED4U-

Would you obey St. Peter if he explained to you an article of faith? Christ did appoint men to carry out his wishes. The pope is elected with the aid of the Holy Spirit. As was said before, he doesn't create new beliefs. He clarifies the original Deposit of Faith given to the apostles from Jesus. For 2002 years there is a continuous line of popes starting with St. Peter to the present day John Paul II.

Kern-

When the pope speaks "ex cathedra" in matters of faith and morals, the Catholic is obliged to obey. Just because some Catholics refuse to obey does not invalidate the power of this office to "loose or hold bound", as Jesus told Peter. Examples of often disobeyed tenets of the Catholic faith: abortion, birth control, divorce and remarriage without a dispensation.

The Holy Father is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Faithful Catholics obey him as they would obey Christ. For Christ has intrusted His Church to the pope. But the pope is more a servant than a ruler.

Hoonbaba-

Mary in not worshiped. We only ask her to pray for us. Her role is completely biblical. Who but Catholics fulfill the prophesy of Mary, the Blessed Mother: "All generations shall call me blessed."

In Christ, Patrick

Originally posted by panterapat
CHRISTDIED4U-

Would you obey St. Peter if he explained to you an article of faith? Christ did appoint men to carry out his wishes. The pope is elected with the aid of the Holy Spirit. As was said before, he doesn't create new beliefs. He clarifies the original Deposit of Faith given to the apostles from Jesus. For 2002 years there is a continuous line of popes starting with St. Peter to the present day John Paul II.

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While not directed at me, I think that is an excellent point.&nbsp; Sola Scriptura did not exist until the Reformation.&nbsp; For the first three hundred or so years, we did not have a compiled Bible.&nbsp; Therefore, the Church took instructions from the men Christ appointed, one of them being St. Peter.

Originally posted by panterapat

When the pope speaks "ex cathedra" in matters of faith and morals, the Catholic is obliged to obey. Just because some Catholics refuse to obey does not invalidate the power of this office to "loose or hold bound", as Jesus told Peter. Examples of often disobeyed tenets of the Catholic faith: abortion, birth control, divorce and remarriage without a dispensation.

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I was not aware that any of those were "ex cathedra" statements. Are you sure about that?

-Chris

Originally posted by panterapat
Hoonbaba-

Mary in not worshiped. We only ask her to pray for us. Her role is completely biblical. Who but Catholics fulfill the prophesy of Mary, the Blessed Mother: "All generations shall call me blessed."

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Hi panterapat,

I'm in full agreement.&nbsp; I've read Hahn's book "Hail, Holy Queen".&nbsp; But I'm concerned about&nbsp;some Catholics who seem to place more&nbsp;emphasis on Mary than Christ.&nbsp; I have nothing against Mary.&nbsp; I love her and the rest of our 'heavenly brethen' too =)

God bless!

-Jason

Jason, perhaps you could start a new thread about Mary so we can discuss it. I, myself was greatly relieved when I had all of my questions answered!!!


I just wanted to throw out some interesting thought on the Papacy that I've read during my research:

1) God promised to protect the Davidic line, and he did. So well did he protect it that the King of Kings, Christ himself was born of that line (no matter how sinful those who came before him were).

2) Jesus spoke of the authority of Moses's seat although according to what I've read there's no mention of Moses's seat in the OT.

"The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees are the authorized interpreters of Moses' Law. So you must obey and follow everything they tell you to do;....."Matt 23:2

3) Jesus gave Peter the "Keys of the Kingdom" which refers back to David's time. The "Keys of the Kingdom" were given to the Prime Minister from the King. The PM was the one who watched over things or took while the King was away. You could say that since Christ is the King of Kings and if he gave the "Keys of the Kingdom" to Peter, you could say that he is the PM or the "Vicar of Christ" while the King is away.

Isaiah 22:19-23 "The Lord will remove you from office and bring you down from your high position. The Lord said to Shebna, "When that happens, I will send for my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will put your official robe and belt on him and give him all the authority you have had. He will be like a father to the people of Jerusalem and Judah. I will give him complete authority under the king, the descendent of David. He will have the keys of office; what he opens, no one will shut, and what he shuts, no one will open."


So if you add up all these thoughts you could conclude that if God protected the line of David and that there was an authority seat of Moses then it's not so farfetched to believe that God protects the line of the Papacy from teaching error and has imbued them with authority and ifallibility.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

Kern- An official teaching of the Catholic Church is binding to Catholics. I am certain of this.

Hoonbaba- You may be correct that some Catholics do this. If they do worshiop Mary as a God, they are breaking the First Commandment. One MUST realize that all praise goes to God. When we say "Hail Mary", Mary is saying "Hail Jesus". She takes our prayers and perfects them. She always points to Jesus. To see her as anything but a conduit to God is incorrect. Yes, some Catholics do get so wrapped up in Mariology that they lose their proper focus. Of Mary's few words in the Bible these are the most important ones, "Do whatever He tells you."

In Christ through Mary, Patrick

Christdied4u-

Follow this:
Jesus came to mankind physically through Mary's womb.
As Catholics, we believe that Jesus continues to come through Mary spiritually.

We believe that by seeking Mary's intercession, she increases the power of our prayer by presenting our prayer to God in the most perfect way. Jesus said from the Cross: "James behold your mother" We believe that in these words, Jesus gave Mary to all of humanity as their spiritual mother. The "Hail Mary" prayer is totally biblical. We repeat the words of Mary and Elizabeth. Mary made a prophesy here: "All generations shall call me blessed."

I understand that this is at times hard for a noncatholic to understand. Mary is our friend and advocate before the throne of God. She is never worshiped.

In Christ, Patrick

To ChristDied4U:

Have you ever even HEARD the 'Hail Mary'? First, every single part of it is from Scripture!

And second, yes, it's a prayer, but it is ASKING MARY to PRAY for us.



Hail, Mary, Full of Grace
The Lord is with Thee!
Blessed are Thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of our death.


Now, really, is that so TERRIBLE?


Peace,
~VOW

Vow........nothing about that prayer is "terrible", it's a beautiful prayer!

To SK:

I agree. But when folks get hung up on the whole Mary business when arguing against the Catholic Church, they often say, "Well, YOU CATHOLICS pray to Mary. You even have a prayer to her!"

I honestly do not think that people have ever even HEARD the prayer. For if they had, they would #1 understand it is taken completely from Scripture, and #2 isn't really "praying to Mary" at all.

Sad, isn't it?



Peace,
~VOW

Originally posted by ChristDied4U!
And a religion that places too much importance on other saints, Popes, and Mother Mary other than Jesus Christ is just wrong in my opinion.

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Well attend just one Mass--and pay attention--and you will find that what you have just said is NOT true of the Catholic Church.&nbsp;

Originally posted by VOW
Have you ever even HEARD the 'Hail Mary'? First, every single part of it is from Scripture!
Peace,
~VOW

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Interesting

Could you give&nbsp;the scripture verses in which "every single part of it is from scripture"?

Luke 1:28 - Amplified Bible
And he came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [ endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! Blessed (favored of God) are you before all other women!

Luke 1:42
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

Luke 1:43
But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
(also note the 3rd ecumenical Council on the title "Mother of God")

For the phrase "pray for us sinners" I would look to a couple of verses like:

Matthew 22
32"I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

and

James 5
16Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

and perhaps Hebrews 12:22,23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Originally posted by ChristDied4U!
Well first off you are praying to Mother Mary who is deceased first of...bless her heart...and well you are asking Mary to pray for you? Why not just pray directly to the father...and ask him to help you out?

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Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Or posted a prayer notice here? It's the same thing. The Bible tells us that the prayers of righteous people are of great worth, and we believe that the dead believers are "alive in Christ" in heaven now, and can hear our prayers and pray for us.

He is the sole Creator...instead of going through Mary to him you know? It just doesn't make any sense to me...if I have access to the Father...why not talk to him directly...instead of asking Mary to pray for me...or a priest? Who knows...maybe something I want prayed for gets misinterpreted or even forgotten to be prayed for going thorugh other people.

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You're supposed to do both. No one is saying that you must pray through Mary, or that you should only pray through Mary. It's in addition to the prayers directly to Jesus.

-Chris

Thank you Chris, I was going to say much the same, but fortunately you anticipated my thoughts.

Dear ChristdiedforU,

It was with your objections in mind that I provided the passages from Matthew 22, James 5, and Hebrews 12:22,23. Taken together they establish the following points.

1. Death has no power over us
2. We are to pray for each other
3. We are all members of one body, regardless of whether we are in heaven or on earth

From this it is asserted that since departure from this age to the next does not separate us from each other, since we are united in Christ, the injunction to pray does not cease with the passing of this life to the next.