Soul Sleep

SpyridonOCA said:

But even if you give these Protestants the benefit of the doubt, that doesn't mean that saints can't hear us. In the resurrection of the dead, there will no longer be space and time as we experience it. Christians who have been raised on the last day, having transcended space and time, will be able to hear us as we speak right now.

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Yea....but the position on the Seventh Day Adventists and other churches is that the dead are really and truly "sleeping" (unconsciousness), so by there definition, the Saints can not hear us [the Ressurrection of the dead has not happened yet]. Now of course this position is contrary to the Holy Scriptures and the faith of the Early Church [1st-10 Centuries]. I have had discussions with SDA, but they simply twist Scriptures to fit in there man-made doctrine and I simply had to move on because there was no "common ground".

Blessings,
Ramon

SpyridonOCA said:

There are Protestants who claim that souls sleep after death until the resurrection and, therefore, it is wrong for us to pray to saints because they aren't alive to hear us anyway. First of all, there are obvious examples from Scripture that the does survive death and is aware rather than asleep. But even if you give these Protestants the benefit of the doubt, that doesn't mean that saints can't hear us. In the resurrection of the dead, there will no longer be space and time as we experience it. Christians who have been raised on the last day, having transcended space and time, will be able to hear us as we speak right now.

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Well, the problem with most "theologians" and "philosophers" around here, is that they confine theology to a time/space continuum that doesn't exist. They will also tell you that salvation was a one time event that happened in 33AD, and that it was once and for all, and that Christ's descent into Hades was also a one time event to free the unbelievers before the Covenant. They will then turn around and proclaim that tongues are for t'day, that the Pentecost is happenin' right thar in that thar livin' room, and begin prophesying gibberish about Aunt Mary who will fall down and break her hip next week, which will in turn affect the appearance of the Anti-Christ.

People tend to think of time as a time line. The two are not the same thing, and it's absurd to think in those terms, especially when one is talking about a Creator who transcends these boundaries.

"Time and space are modes by which we think, not conditions in which we live." (Happy Al Einstein)

Applying your logic (which is good btw) one might even go so far as to speculate (emphasis SPECULATE) that the Last Judgement will occur in Einstein's so-called "time of all at once" and that therefore Hades is empty because Christ already emptied it in that same 'time of all at once'. I sure hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

You cannot think in terms of "time." Time is just something WE HUMANS apply to the universe. In effect time is irrelevant to everything.

SpyridonOCA said:

There are Protestants who claim that souls sleep after death until the resurrection and, therefore, it is wrong for us to pray to saints because they aren't alive to hear us anyway. First of all, there are obvious examples from Scripture that the does survive death and is aware rather than asleep. But even if you give these Protestants the benefit of the doubt, that doesn't mean that saints can't hear us. In the resurrection of the dead, there will no longer be space and time as we experience it. Christians who have been raised on the last day, having transcended space and time, will be able to hear us as we speak right now.

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You're not going to get very far with that arguement. Which verses exactly tell you that space and time will no longer be as we know it? Which verses tell you that in the resurrection we will transcend space and time? Which verses tell you that dead people will hear what we are saying right now after the resurrection?

Presenting veneration of saints in such a way only adds fuel to view that we are saint worshipers. Veneration and prayer to the saints should not be about requests and honestly, it probably doesn't even matter if they hear or not for it to be of value to us.

I guess you can point out that Moses appeared at the Transfiguration, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, or that the Gospel was preached to those in the flood. And not just that they appeared, but that they were talking and aware of what was going on around them, ie not sleeping.

Why would Christ promise the thief the joys of Paradise on this day, if he was just gonna sleep through it til the last judgment?

They are just confused a little bit... I am saying this as one who "used to pray to Ellen G White" that unmistakable prophet" of last days, a woman who "prophetically" saw that other "Sundayiran" authors had good material and basically stole a certain (large) amount of her "visions"..