Just Who Is That Crazy Old Man?

romans6and6 said:

You make some good points, but I think where the difference lies is in the growing process...

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Renewing the mind is renewing the mind. It is a part of the sanctification process and that effects the soul. The flesh nature has connections to the soul if you will, but its home is right where the Bible says it is...in the flesh.

Sanctification doesn't effect the old nature, it simply needs to be put and kept under our feet. All of our growth in Christ is categorized as sanctification, but that is separate from justification.

When Paul told the Roman Christians to "present their bodies a living sacrifice", this is the essence of the submission I'm speaking of. It has nothing to do with renewing the mind...it is our free will decision to submit to the Lordship and authority of Christ in all things.

Did we do that at salvation? Of course we did. Does it always show in our lives? No way. There's a dramatic difference between the truth and our being abedient to it.

Climbing on the altar before the Lord is the premise from which the renewing of the mind becomes effective. Its from that position on the altar that I am transformed into His image.

But when we become disobedient to the truth, the Father will chasten us and lead us back into obedience. And just being disobedient doesn't get you lost again...it gets you chastened.

romans6and6 said:

Not everyone in the churches that the apostles were writing to were saved. Some of them were in a backslidden state. "Once saved, always saved" is one of the biggest lies of the enemy ever. One has to continue in the faith, be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, abide in Christ, and endure unto the end to be ultimately saved in the end.

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Wow...you might want to go back and read some of the introductions of the letters the apostles wrote...you know...who they were actually addressed to. This assumption that the letters are written to the unsaved skews everything.

If they are unsaved, the have become natural men again. Since the natural man can't receive the things of God, all the letters then become exercises in futility, written to people who couldn't possibly understand them even on their best day.

There are unsaved in most every church...they need to be saved, not taught how to be good Christians.

romans6and6 said:

Those people whom James called adulterers were not saved.

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If they weren't saved, then what they were doing wasn't adultery.
And James 4:5 makes it clear that the Spirit dwelled within them and jealously yearned against their friendship with the world.

romans6and6 said:

Paul makes that very clear several times in the Scriptures. He said not to be deceived, that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, unless they repent and turn back to Christ, of course, as some of those in Corinth did.

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So, you're saying that if we lose our salvation, we can repent and get it back? Let's stay with the Word.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

If you'd like to discuss the old nature from your POV, that's fine. Just express it as your POV. I know the Eternal Security understandings have some foundations in the study of the old and new natures. But given the scope of iit, I would prefer not to debate Eternal Security here. There are existing debates on that topic in specific threads that I would assume are in the Debate sub-forum.



Paul also makes it very clear that both natures war against each other.

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Hello...? Who is the inward man who delights in the Law of God? Isn't this the new creation? This is CLEARLY NOT an unsaved person.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22-23

Hey guys...this isn't talking about the mind that needs to be renewed...its the law of sin that exists in our members warring against the Law of God.

As he continues into Chapter 8, Paul is teaching the difference in being carnally minded and spiritually led. A believer who doesn't know this, needs to have that knowledge so they can stop being carnally minded and become spiritually led. The teaching means nothing to unbleievers, remember they can't receive it.

romans6and6 said:

Paul after listing what the unrighteous are in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, turns to those who are saved in Corinth and throughout the church age, since the Bible is a living book, and says:

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified [all past tenses] in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

A child of God has no sin nature, and as long as he remains and abides in Christ, he does not commit the works of the flesh, which even includes such uncommitted sins of the heart such as hatred, lust, and coveteousness.

These are two different states - light and darkness, old man or new man, sin nature or divine nature, sinner or saint, works of the flesh or fruit of the spirit, free from sin or a slave to sin, dead in sin or dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God, fruit unto death or fruit unto holiness, etc.

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I agree that the child of God has no sin nature. The new man knows no sin and isn't capable of sinning. But the new man is a spirit, born of the Holy Spirit like Jesus was...as long as he remains and abides under the Lordship of Christ, doesn't commit the works of the flesh.

But actually walking that out in our lives is another thing all together...that spirit abides within corrupted flesh.

Gideon is a good example of what I'm saying. God sees us differently than we see ourselves. What He says about us is true, we just need to go through the process to bring out the true self that God has created within us.

The angel greeted Gideon as a "mighty man of valor" and Gideon told the angel he had made a mistake. Gideon was truly a mighty man of valor, but the fact is that when the angel told him that, Gideon was a chicken.

Eventually, Gideon took God at His Word and followed His guidance to the end that God had seen from the beginning...God revealed the mighty man of valor that was in Gideon.


One other thing that I noticed. It sounds like you have the Fundamentalist POV on Kingdom inheritance. I don't say that in a demeaning way, just trying to see the POV.

The fullness of our Kingdom inheritance will not be available to us in flesh and blood. And it won't be fully manifested until after the Second Coming

But the Kingdom exists now, and it can be seen, entered into and inherited in this life. What was Jesus' message if not, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

The thing is that flesh and blood can't enter into the Kingdom of God. So as long as we are carnally minded, we won't be Kingdom oriented. If I'm living according to my flesh, I won't be able to enter into the Kingdom or enjoy the inheritance that's available to me now.

In John 3, Jesus made it clear that being born again is a prerequisite to any Kingdom activity. Just because someone hasn't entered or isn't inheriting the Kingdom, doesn't emphatically mean they aren't born again...it means they are carnal.

As a parent and an ex-kid myself, I can remember the various stages of the development of a child's personal identity.

As a baby we are totally dependant on our parents, but at various stages of life, we begin to explore our identity. During the "terrible two's", most children learn and frequently use a new word. "NO".

When we tell our parents "NO" and deviate from their "commandments", we begin walking at enmity with or in disobedience to them. Instead of walking in the ways they have directed, we take paths of our own choosing.

When we're walking in these directions of our own choosing, we're not "parents" minded, we're self minded. I will always be my Daddy's boy even though there were times when I didn't act like it.

There is a great deal of similarity between our heavenly and our earthly Fathers. But the bottom line I'm looking for is this "path of our own choosing" thing.

Just because I've made a general acceptance of God's path for my life, doesn't always mean I'm going to be obedient to it. Oh sure, I should be, but there are times when I need to have the board of education applied to the seat of learning.

The better way is to get past this general acceptance thing...to stop following from afar...to pursue and maintain that first love...to make and keep Him the absolute Lord of our lives.

romans6and6 said:

Scriptural sanctification means to make holy, to make something the opposite of common. He sanctifies, justifies, and washes us at the new birth, just as Paul says in the scriptures I quoted in 1 Corinthians 6:10. It is a finished work. One cannot be saved and free from sin and then struggle to get rid of sin for the rest of his life through a sanctification process.

If you want to talk about a process, then growing in Him is a process, not growing out of sin.

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The new creation is perfectly made in Christ...it is a finshed work. The mind is another story. It is perfectly unholy. It needs to be renewed, transformed, grown up pr whatever other terminology you want to use. Whatever you want to call it, we're in the process of making our unholy minds holy. I choose to use the term sanctification because that defines the concept of transforming what is unholy into something holy.

romans6and6 said:

No, but committing the works of the flesh causes you to lose your salvation. We may "miss the mark" as a Christian and may get chastised for it, but this is different than unholiness and uncleanness through the works of the flesh. For instance, you may not love someone as you should, and show a lack of patience towards them. This is a lack of the fruit of the spirit and God may chastise you for it. But, as a child of God you cannot hate someone. Hatred is one of the things listed as a work of the flesh. You may lack in the fruit of the spirit, but a child of God cannot produce corrupt fruit. Jesus made this very clear.

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MY little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1

romans6and6 said:

What about Paul telling the Galatians that they have fallen from grace? What about Paul warning the Corinthians to repent over the matter of accepting this adulterer as a brother in the church? What about James, as I stated earlier? And what about Jesus himself warning many of the seven churches that they have lost their first love, that they were dead, and that they must repent or be lost forever?

It is obvious that many who were once saved in these churches, had lost their first love either through trying to fall back to the law as were the Galatians, or by turning back unto the world in other cases. In that backslidden state they were not saved and needed to repent so that they would not be eternally lost.

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We're back to the same old point. If someone is unsaved, they need to be saved, not taught how to be a good Christian. If they're being taught how to be a good Christian, salvation isn't an issue, is it?

romans6and6 said:

That is an obscure scripture and not one to be basing a doctrine on. In the margin of my KJB, it quotes the R.V. which reads:

"Doth the spirit which he made to dwell in us long unto envying?"

In either case, it is a question, and the connotation to this question is suggesting that this is impossible for the spirit of God within them to lust to envy. Just as Paul asks a question in Romans 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" Paul quickly responds in verse 2 with "God forbid," and another question, "How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" In other words, it was impossible for one to be in the grace of God and still continue in sin.





It is impossible for one to be renewed again if they deny the gospel of Jesus Christ and turn away to the law to try to please God, as some of those in the Galatian church did, for example. In that state, it is impossible to be saved, because you have left the grace of God, and have put your faith in something else to save you. This verse is not talking about the average backslider who just falls back into a life of sin. The parable of the prodigal son, shows us that God is willing to forgive and restore back into sonship all those who come back to him on God's terms.




No, but the religious man delights in the law of God. The Jewish people under the law, delighted in the law of God. They were partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, wanting to do good but evil was present with them, because of their depraved sinful natures. But when one comes to Christ in the "gospel day" there is no longer a struggle between good and evil, because that old man of sin or sin nature was crucified in union with Christ in His cross.



The flesh in the Greek has a broad range of application. It could mean the sin nature, human nature, the body, or just plain doing things in our own might instead of relying upon God. When Paul says that "they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts" he is talking about the sin nature.



I don't hold to any doctrine of man. Are you referring to the Kingdom Age teaching? If you are, I am definately not that.

I am just going back to the early apostles, and standing on their shoulders, and yearning to see a clearer and clearer picture of the awesome and glorious gospel of Jesus Christ that they lived and died for.

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Yeah...well let's just say we disagree and leave it at that. So much of what you're saying is shaded by your eternal security position and I just don't have the desire to get into it.

romans6and6 said:

Where does it say in the Scriptures that the mind, in the beginning of our walk, is perfectly unholy?

The Scriptures do say that we have the mind of Christ. The Scriptures do say that to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The Christians mind is renewed in Christ, but it is not renewed from unholy to holy through a process. The process is in growing in Him. The process is growing in wisdom and knowledge and spiritual understanding and being rooted and grounded in Him, not growing from unholiness into holiness.



John uses the plural in “children” and “ye” and then switches to singular in “if any man sin.”

The thought here is that if any individual sins, and not an expectation that all those in Christ “will” sin. Not sinning is the norm for the Christian because he has no sin nature that causes him to sin.

John goes on to say in 1 John 3 that whosoever abides in Him sins not. And also in verse 9:

“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in Him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

And there is nothing in here about the mind and the soul being evil, but the spirit remaining holy. This is Gnosticism. They believed that the spirit was holy but that the body was still evil. But the Scriptures do not separate between the mind and soul and the spirit as concerning good and evil. Jesus said that he that commits sin is the servant of sin. John said that he that commits sin is of the devil. Jesus said that a good tree bears good fruit only, and a corrupt tree bears corrupt fruit only.

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Oh good grief.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; Ephesians 4:23

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:18

Ephesians 5:26 That He (Jesus) might sanctify hagiazo - to separate from profane things and dedicate to God, to purify internally by renewing of the soul.

and cleanse katharizo - to purify from wickedness, to consecrate by cleansing or purifying.

it with the washing loutron - bathing, and perhaps baptism.

of water hudor - perhaps of baptism...allegorically, Thayer says that which refreshes and keeps the soul alive is likened to water.

by the word, rhema - the breathed, inspired Word of God.

Ephesians 5:27 That He (Jesus) might present paristemi - to place beside or near,to bring into one's fellowship or intimacy, to show off, to prove.

it to himself a glorious endoxos - held in good or in great esteem, of high repute, illustrious, honourable, notable, free from sins.

church, not having spot, spilos - fault, moral blemish.

or wrinkle, rhutis - drawn up, convoluted.

or any such thing; but that it should be holy hagios - reverend, worthy of veneration, as the Temple of God sacred and not to be profaned.

and without blemish. amomos - faultless, unblameable.

So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. James 1:19-25

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:12-14

For what thanks can we render to God for you, for all the joy with which we rejoice for your sake before our God, night and day praying exceedingly that we may see your face and perfect what is lacking in your faith? 1 Thessalonians 3:9-10

katartizō - verb - perfect: to render sound and complete; to repair what is broken or torn; to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust; to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be.

Doesn't the notion of perfecting carry the connotation that there is some imperfection that needs to be fixed?

romans6and6 said:

John says in 1John 3:7:
“Little children, let no man deceive you; he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.”

The body is just a vessel and can only do what the man on the inside tells him to do. If the inner man is holy, then so is his body. If the inner man is corrupt, then his fruit will be corrupt and will be fruit unto death. Jesus taught us this also in Mark 7:20-23:

"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, coveteousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

John also says in 1John 3:10
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

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You know...sometimes a new perspective helps to clarify the terms we're using. In some areas we're saying the same or similar thing just with different terms....in other areas, I think a new perspective will help.

Each and every moment of our lives, our souls (mind, emotions and will) have been impacted by some type of input. Over the years we've heard, seen and experienced countless billions of pieces of input. Add to that input the thoughts feelings and attitudes that it spawned and your soul becomes a very complex and intricately woven fabric of strongholds, beliefs and mindsets.

During the course of fabricating the soul, you can be sure that the world system (which is founded on and built of lies) has injected a good many of its lies into our couscious and subconscious minds.

We don't know how many lies are buried in our belief systems, but you can rest assured that when we're born again, they don't just magically go away. It takes truth to replace the lies, and that truth comes through the washing of the water with the Word...it comes by establishing the precepts of truth that counter the lies...by doing the Word and not hearing it only.

What are the lies? The biggest lie of the devil is that God is a liar. There is no greater lie, it is fundamental to fear and doubt. Consider that if we EVER have ANY shadow of doubt regarding ANYTHING about God and His Word, this lie is still working in us, and our mind is still corrupted.

Parents tell children bad things and warp their little minds. Teachers in school teach secular humanism (just the tip of the iceberg, really), the precepts of which spread far. What does one believe about self, others, social ethics, other religions and morals...if there's a topic, its possible we've been told and believe a lie about it.

Getting saved doesn't instantly search out our psyches for all our little problem areas and fix them. It gives us the foundation of Christ, the only source of true healing for all these things. When we receive the truth, it sets us free from the strongholds fashioned by the lies the world has taught us.

And how does He teach us this truth? Line upon line and precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little in very simple words that we can understand.

It is a progressive work.

And if our minds still have even one lie, one misunderstanding or one uncertainty in ALL things, then they are yet corrupt, imperfect and in need of continued renewal.

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You know, we can talk about doctrines and ideaologies until we're blue in the face. I could really care less about all the talk. If it doesn't wear combat boots, its useless.

If a child of God is trapped in conflict with an obsessive, addictive behavior, I'm sorry but I can't tell them, "You're problem is that you aren't really saved. You need to get saved so you have the mind of Christ and then USE it."

To me, that's no different from telling the naked, hungry or thirsty soul to "go your way and be blessed".

Yes, salvation is critical...none of this works without it. But once people get saved, they need to go through and clean their mental houses, exchanging the lies they were taught with the truth of God's Word. If one is in an accountable position to minister to them, the minister needs to seek the Lord for spiritual discernment and wisdom of counsel so he can administer any deliverance and/or the proper lines and precepts of truth that will break the yoke of the lies.

Yes, what God says about us is true! Now...MAKE IT WALK!

Like James said, faith without works is dead...he must have been from Missouri, 'cause he said, "Show me."

Are we walking on water?
Do we calm the storms?
Do the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame walk?
Are the broken hearted healed?
Do the dead live again?
Are we setting the captives free?
Are we bringing people out of their ashes into beauty?
Do those who mourned now rejoice?
Is our bread multiplied multiple thousand fold?
Are every single one of our prayers emphatically answered "Yes"?

The list of questions could go on and on, but what of the answers? Is all we have to point at some hit and miss figurative or spiritual representation of what should be a clearly manifiested truth?

If all the things God says about us are true, and they are, then where is the evidence?

And if the evidence in our own lives comes up short, what can we do to change that?

This thread is a positional statement that I started to express to a few brothers and sisters I was discussing other topics with. When this point seemed to keep coming up, I felt it better to isolate it and express the position on its own rather than add this much information "off topic" to another thread.

Whether or not anyone else agrees with the position is not my concern. If anyone is of a similar understanding, they might see some depth of the understanding and it may help.

If they aren't of a similar understanding, that's fine with me. I have no desire or intention to make someone change their mind, that's not my job. By the same token it isn't your job to make me change my mind, its my Father's job.

When I study the Word, I don't do it for any man's approval. When I share what I've learned, it isn't to prove that I'm right about anything or to gain someone's approval. I could care less whether or not you approve of me or agree with me as long as my heart seeks and finds my Father's approval.

I appreciate your input, but if we have anything to prove, let it be that Jesus lives abundantly in our hearts.

ShammahBenJudah said:

In this model, all of our positive emotions like love and joy come from the seat of our faith. And all of our negative emotions like hatred and anger are seated in our fear. This understanding really bears witness with me, and I'll tell you why.

My inherant faith is "manly" faith. I trust gravity to work, I have faith that the sun will come up again...you know, its a natural faith.

My inherant fear was not born of God, in fact my fear is born of the devil. It is natural in that I was born with it, but not natural in that I was not created for it.

At a very quick glance, let's look at Galatians 2:20 again. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Notice that Paul isn't talking about living in his own natural faith. No, no...the life we can now live is by the faith of Christ. The faith of Christ is among the fruits of those who have crucified the flesh in Christ.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-25

So in the Spirit, all the positive emotions should be evident and perfected in our lives and they are not of our own doing.

So if the battle between the old and new man is a battle of faith vs. fear, then we need to get in Christ's faith to have victory. Because perfect love "crucifies" fear.

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Picking up here with the Faith vs. Fear model, Romans 14:23 Begs to be mentioned. After a brief discourse on what is right and wrong to eat and the circumstances that can cause problems about what one may eat (this was an especially important topic to the "Torah Observant" believers) Paul establishes a very powerful and provocative precept.

For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

If I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus...if I am perfectly justified...if I am perfectly sanctified...if no sin or no evil thing now dwells within me...how can I be considered sinful for any activity not of faith?

If I am a new creation, perfected in Christ and incapable of sinning, what is wrong with me that a work I might do of myself is sinful?

Look at the model again. When I am not in His faith, I am in my fear. Now that doesn't mean I'm constantly scared spitless, it means that my emotions and thought patterns follow after all of the sinful, fear based thoughts and emotions. And as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

So it is entirely possible for one to think God wants them to start a church. So they do it, pastor a flock, preach the gospel and get people truly saved. But if their work isn't of faith, they would be sinning every step of the way.

So, is this fear we risk falling into of the mind? Can we renew the mind and dispatch it?

Nope...it doesn't work that way. The weapon that overcomes fear is perfect love, not knowledge.

If this fear...this seat of our negative emotions is not of the "renewable" soul and certainly not of the new spirit man, where is it found? Well, there's really only one other possibility...its the old carnal way that remains dead to us and is cast out by the perfect love of Christ that works in us when we are in His faith.

So the solution is not to step out of His faith.

romans6and6 said:

I look at such subjects of this forum as a debate stage.

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ShammahBenJudah said:

This thread is a positional statement...I appreciate your input, but if we have anything to prove, let it be that Jesus lives abundantly in our hearts.

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Thank you and God bless.

ShammahBenJudah said:

This thread is a positional statement...I appreciate your input, but if we have anything to prove, let it be that Jesus lives abundantly in our hearts.

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Between post #39 and #53, no progress was made in my effort to complete expressing the position. There is still more to come. I'd kinda like to get finished with it somewhere before post #999

Have you ever wished you could remember where you heard something? Over the years, we pick things up randomly, but sometimes forget where they came from. I read an article once that explained Mr. Spock's Vulcan blessing from the Star Trek series.

I can't remember the source, and I guess whether its true or not is irrelevant. But you may find it interesting in how it explains God's blesings to us.

When Mr. Spock pronounced his blessing, "Live long and prosper.", it was accompanied by a specific 'hand sign'. The palm faced forward and the fingers split into a 'V' shape, 2 fingers on either side.

The article I read suggested that the Aaronic blessing of Numbers 26 was given by the High Priest as he stood before the tabernacle with his hands lifted over the people and his fingers spread in that 'V' shape. Then the high priest pronounced God's blessing over the people:

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
Numbers 6:24-26

It is only because we have a High Priest standing between us and God that He can bless us. As our High Priest lifts His hands over us and pronounces the blessing, God looks at us through His pierced hands and says, "Amen".

pinetree said:

Shammah, you have described the old man and his dillema very well. What is so clear to me from the gospel, is that we are new creatures through the power of the cross.

The finished work of the cross is the answer. Jesus said "it is finished" he meant it.

The more we dwell on Romans 7, without having Romans 8 as our reality, then "through the law will come the consciousness of sin.

"Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.


That is what brings the old man out of the graveyard."the power of sin is the law."1Cor.15:56

Sin takes opportunity through the command. But through the power of the cross our old man is crucified, without that power we cannot see him dead.


Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

I mean it says.I know longer live.Christ does.Something must be dead....

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Good point, bro.What I'm trying to do is paint a big picture with the details and at the same time disassemble the big picture by examining the details. It isn't so easy as it seemed at first, lol.

The most difficult part IMHO is clarifying terminology where others may not understand what is being said because they understand a term differently than what it might be intended to communicate.

I believe the reality is that as long as God's seal, signet of ownership and earnest of the promise remains upon us (Ephesians 1:13), the true old adamic nature is dead to us. The only way we could really go back to it is to rip God's seal out of our hearts and become completely apostate to Him. But I don't believe there are any Christians who have any desire toward God that fall into this category.

So...yeah its dead to us in Christ...but there's something about it that still lives somewhere...or we would actually be perfect. And while Jesus finished the work on the cross, He has only begun it in us. Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ Philippians 1:6

I'm going to try looking at the physiology connected with the function of our soul in a bit. You may find some of our medical understanding of our "selves" interesting. And I expect it will help express this understanding a little more clearly.