Corporate salvation

I feel certain that Orthodox believe in individual salvation and that everyone is accountable for himself.

That being said, I think Orthodox really have a deep belief (more so than most Protestants) that the church family/community and its nurturing will be an invaluable tool in guiding their members towards this salvation.

Some Protestants have a very strong "you can go it alone" mentality, even if they promote church attendance as important.

double post

Yes, Orthodoxy stresses the importance of being saved within a community but also of respecting the individual that God created us to be. A nun once said something like "there is no such thing as one Christian". Even the hermit in a cave alone is not alone. We believe very strongly in the Cloud of Witnesses: asking others to interceed for us. Also, look at the Our Father... never My father or forgive ME, but forgive US... Look at the name of the sacrament of the Eucharist: communion. This is nto only communion with God, but recognizing and strengthening our communion with each other as brothers and sister's in CHrist. Traditionally, when a priest was ordained or a Bishop consecrated the people would all yell, Axios (let it be! I believe) showing that the priest is a priest and he bishop is a bishop by proclamation of the people of God. Similarly in a traditional baptism the people yell "Sealed!" after the priest is putting on the holy oil to signify that this baby or adult is brought into the Church through the support of the people of God. Unfortunately a lot of ths is lost in a lot of parishes... including mine. It' unfortunate because I fear it is giving many the idea that the priest is doing everything and we lose that idea of the priest being a representative of the people and take on more of an idea of him as a shaman... a magic man that we are not worthy of approaching. it used to be (and still is in many parishes) that the people would yel out Amen Amen Amen after the consecration of the gifts, driving home the point that the priest is not just a magic man but that everything we do is done as a Church and we are saved together.

Also, Saint Seraphim of Sarov is often quoted as saying that simply being holy can save thousands around them.

Also, there is the idea in the Scriptures that a non-Christian spouse can be saved through their Christian spouse. I would like to learn more about htat and the Orthodox perspective on that... but it seems to intill the idea that we can be saved through the faith of others (or obtain faith through the faith of others).

We pray for the dead, and in private we especially pray for those who we are not certain had a relationship with God simply because we believe God's mercy is greater than our ability to comprehend.

This mysterious concept is illustrated by Abraham who prayed that God would spare Sodom and G. In the end He didn't becuase it was totally depraved but that God would "bargain" with Abaraham so to speak. I guess what I mean to say is that he listens to the petitions (even the seemingly outrageous ones) of those wiht strong faith.

The Orthodox Church has the perfect expression of salvation, how it works, and respecting the mystery of it. The perfect balance it strikes as manifested in her practices and doctrine is a wonderful demonstration of this perfect salvation.

Sorry for my sporatic thoughts. Hopefully it helped somewhat???

Xpy

We are all individuals, but also part of one body, the church.

the church is our hospital, our ship, and together we travel through our life while also retaining our individuality.
Every Orthodox person on this site - their salvation is like my salvation to me and we all take our part on that ship sailing to our home, and I am honored to be on board with them.
We also receive communion in our worship which is very vital to our belief. We all drink from one cup, making us one but each of us distinct.
Just as God is three in one
The church is we in one....so to speak.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, many Christians will say, in polls and what-not, that the church is not that important in their faith/salvation/whatever.
Throughout history it was very important in a person's life as a Christian and still retains that status in Orthodoxy today.

As with most things in Orthodoxy; it's not one or the other extreme. It's about balance. Having a balanced and realistic view of how salvation works. Recognizing that both the Church and the individual have their own parts to play on the path to salvation.

I'll say it again; balance.

Read Ephesians.

Salvation is personal, but it's not individual. Does that make sense? One of the Saints said, "the only thing we can do by ourselves, is to go to hell".

We are part of the Body of Christ, we are all connected to Him, in and through His Church and His Holy Mysteries.

Mary

Mary, that was perfect. I knew there was a better word than individual that I had once read. That was it: personal.

Chesterton said:

All your responses were helpful, thanks for them. I guess the idea can't help but be somewhat mysterious, though.

I must be thinking too individualistically. I tend to think, the guy sitting in the pew next to me, what do his decisions have to do with me, you know? But I suspect the answer is a little bigger than the way I think about it. I know the idea of corporateness is scriptural, so maybe in time I'll be led to thinking a little bigger and broader than I do now.

Click to expand...

Sometimes it takes time to let it sink it... I think you are trying to approach it the best way you can. Since it's a mystery you can force it to make sense... after a while it just does... well... as much as a mystery can. lol

Xpy

Mary of Bethany said:

Salvation is personal, but it's not individual. Does that make sense? One of the Saints said, "the only thing we can do by ourselves, is to go to hell".

We are part of the Body of Christ, we are all connected to Him, in and through His Church and His Holy Mysteries.

Mary

Click to expand...

Exactly, and a person can only be a person when he lives in communion with other persons. When he ceases to live in communion with others he becomes an individual.

God is the communion of the three Persons of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity is a communion of Love ("God is love") who out of His boundless love created man to share in this communion. And love is something that can only exist between persons. When man fell away from God he broke off communion not only with God, but also with his fellow man. Salvation is the restoration of our communion not only with God, but also with our fellow man. When we receive the Body and Blood of Christ we are united not only the Christ, the Head of the Church, but also to the rest of the Body of Christ.
Hope that helps explain it.

I agree with Mary, her post is spot on. I guess the only thing maybe to add would be to remember that the Godhead is communal, so our salvation would be communal as well. also remember that even in Paradise it was not fit for Man to be alone.

Chesterton said:

Protestants seem to talk about salvation mostly individually, as in "me and Jesus", whereas Orthodox speak of being saved "as the Church". I don't have a very specific question, but could someone explain anything about the idea of corporate salvation? I'm having a hard time understanding what it really means.

Click to expand...

-Corporate salvation- is a concept borrowed from Catholic teaching.

ProScribe said:

-Corporate salvation- is a concept borrowed from Catholic teaching.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by Catholic. You mean the teaching the RCC? or do you mean that in a more primitive way. if you do I think the norm is to write it in lower case "catholic" just for clarity's sake. However, if you meant that it comes from the RCC, I strongly disagree. Maybe the term, but not the concept by any means. Corporate Salvation is the core way in which we understand Salvation in terms of the Church. It's no more borrowed from the RCC than the concept of forgiveness of sins is borrowed from the RCC. Just as the RCC has the same concept of fogiveness of sins, that doesn't mean we got it from them. The concept goes back to Christ teaching to disciples how to pray and probably before that. It is what Salvation is. It isn't merely a concept among competing concepts in the early Church. It's not a school of thought. It's the very reality of Salvation in the Church.

Xpy

Roman Catholic is exactly what he meant. He's been back over in OBOB, apparently courting.

When I first met him, he called himself Catholic. Then he quit and became Lutheran. Then he quit that to become Orthodox. Now he appears to be planning his exit from Orthodoxy to be Roman Catholic again. "... we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine..."

I hope you see this pattern, ProScribe. See your Priest, and see your Therapist. Don't leave the Truth because you are confused. Work through this. I have seen so much improvement in you, your ability to keep and communicate cohesive thoughts, as you embraced Orthodoxy. Don't just let that go. Please.

The others have explained this very well, but I do want to add a personal observation/thought:
For many years I studied other religions, including eastern philosophies, and so forth. Realizing that theology is separate from philosophy, in Christianity, the latter is formed by the former. Having said that, I want to just say that of all the religions I studied in contrast, only Christianity offers salvation in community, as well as on an individual level.

The Orthodox understanding of salvation, includes the individual as a separate and unique creation of God, and yet, at the same time, treats that individual as part of a community. At the same time that individuals progress on the path to theosis, they are inter-dependent upon the whole for that same theosis. We progress both as individuals, and also as community. By contrast, other religions, particularly in the east, sacrifice of the individuality for the "group mind" concept in the standard. (One has to "give up oneself" and one's "illusions" in order to "join" the "One-ness", "All-ness", "Whatever-ness". ) In Christianity, there are no "drones". We are "saved" as individuals, "glorified" as individuals through Christ, and "glorified" as the communal Bride of Christ.

I hope this helps.

Rindicella said:

The others have explained this very well, but I do want to add a personal observation/thought:
For many years I studied other religions, including eastern philosophies, and so forth. Realizing that theology is separate from philosophy, in Christianity, the latter is formed by the former. Having said that, I want to just say that of all the religions I studied in contrast, only Christianity offers salvation in community, as well as on an individual level.

The Orthodox understanding of salvation, includes the individual as a separate and unique creation of God, and yet, at the same time, treats that individual as part of a community. At the same time that individuals progress on the path to theosis, they are inter-dependent upon the whole for that same theosis. We progress both as individuals, and also as community. By contrast, other religions, particularly in the east, sacrifice of the individuality for the "group mind" concept in the standard. (One has to "give up oneself" and one's "illusions" in order to "join" the "One-ness", "All-ness", "Whatever-ness". ) In Christianity, there are no "drones". We are "saved" as individuals, "glorified" as individuals through Christ, and "glorified" as the communal Bride of Christ.

I hope this helps.

Click to expand...

Thank you!