Creationism VS Public schools

Aceofspades77 · Jul 15, 2008

So what is argued as the first living cell? Something like a prokaryote perhaps? I do not understand even how something like this single cell came to be. Does it not take faith to believe in evolution? My life outlook and internal structure for viewing life is based on what I've observed in history, science, experience and faith in God. I believe most people have an internal structure and foundation, say a set rule of beliefs and ideas that functions as a viewing mechanism to understand life. How can I put any belief into evolutionary theory when many simple questions I have are unanswered or take a certain level of faith for me to belief in. Even with a simple cell such as the prokaryote as extremely complex as it is, I have to belief that all the millions of complex living organisms today came from something as simple as that or an organism similar? Even with all the millions of living examples, tools and modern ingenuity, man has failed to create anything similar to the prokaryote. I'm not trying to show how evolution fails simply because man can't create life but in just how difficult it is for life to come to be. Now my point is in the fact that I have to belief that the first simple cells came to be by chance via billions of years, perfect conditions at the right time and then these conditions continued for the additional life to progress into what we have today. What are the odds? My faith that God has created all has been strengthened and verified to me much more strongly than the ideas evolutionary theory has provided.

Nathan Poe · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
So what is argued as the first living cell? A prokaryote perhaps? I do not understand even how something like this single cell came to be.

If you don't understand something, look it up.

Does it not take faith to believe in evolution?

About as much faith as it takes to believe that the Sun is 93 million miles from Earth.

My life outlook and internal structure for viewing life is based on what I've observed in history, science, experience and faith in God.

I think you'll find that reality, such as it is, churns on without caring one whit for your life outlook or internal structure for viewing life.

I believe most people have an internal structure and foundation, say a set rule of beliefs and ideas that functions as a viewing mechanism to understand life.

Most people however accept that there are things they do not understand, yet are true regardless.

How can I put any belief into evolutionary theory when many simple questions I have are unanswered or take a certain level of faith for me to belief in.

By looking for answers.

Even with a simple cell such as the prokaryote as extremely complex it is I have to belief that all the millions of complex living organisms today came from something as simple as that or an organism similar?

You don't have to believe anything -- go see for yourself.

My faith that God has created all has been strengthened and verified to me much more strongly than the ideas evolutionary theory has provided.

Because evolutionary theory doesn't "provide" anything -- you have to find things out for yourself. No handouts here.

Furthermore, if your faith in God is based on your lack of knowledge of alternatives, I don't see why you'd admit that. Ignorance is a poor foundation for any faith.

Finally, why are you setting God against evolution? Who put the idea in your head that the answer must be one or the other; that the two concepts are mutually exclusive?

Aceofspades77 · Jul 15, 2008

"Why is it that creationists who claim to be "scientists" don't understand anything about science? In science a theory is a testable model based on confirmed hypotheses and observations that explains a set of natural phenomena, and is capable of making testable predictions and is verifiable through empirical observation." - Split Rock

I actually work in the Navy as a meteorologist technician and I have to say that I know a little about science considering the the military trusts my knowledge to help keep people safe and protect lives.

Aceofspades77 · Jul 15, 2008

Nathan Poe said:
If you don't understand something, look it up.

About as much faith as it takes to believe that the Sun is 93 million miles from Earth.

I think you'll find that reality, such as it is, churns on without caring one whit for your life outlook or internal structure for viewing life.

Most people however accept that there are things they do not understand, yet are true regardless.

By looking for answers.

You don't have to believe anything -- go see for yourself.

Because evolutionary theory doesn't "provide" anything -- you have to find things out for yourself. No handouts here.

Furthermore, if your faith in God is based on your lack of knowledge of alternatives, I don't see why you'd admit that. Ignorance is a poor foundation for any faith.

Finally, why are you setting God against evolution? Who put the idea in your head that the answer must be one or the other; that the two concepts are mutually exclusive?

Where did I say God is against evolution. I'm against evolution. Your telling me that my faith in God is based on my "lack of knowledge"? I think your replies are lacking a certain level of maturity. Impressive rebuttal. This is an open thread where I'm trying to stir thinking and find answers but apparently by your reasoning I should "go find out". No need to get all crazy on me Poe.

Tomk80 · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
I actually work in the Navy as a meteorologist technician and I have to say that I know a little about science considering the the military trusts my knowledge to help keep people safe and protect lives.

Good for you. But regarding what you said about theories, you were dead wrong. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Tomk80 · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
Where did I say God is against evolution. I'm against evolution.

You implied this with "My faith that God has created all has been strengthened and verified to me much more strongly than the ideas evolutionary theory has provided."

Your telling me that my faith in God is based on my "lack of knowledge"?

No, he's telling you that if your faith in God is based on a lack of knowledge, it is a very poor basis for you faith.

I think your replies are lacking a certain level of maturity.

Look in the mirror. You're all over the place with your posts. Where did the second law of thermodynamics even go to? I thought we were discussing that originally, but you keep coming up with all kinds of new things, things that haven't got anything to do with the SLOT, let alone with evolution.

Impressive rebuttal. This is an open thread where I'm trying to stir thinking and find answers but apparently by your reasoning I should "go find out". No need to get all crazy on me Poe.

Stirring thinking is not done by making statements that are categorically wrong. Finding answers is not done by having them spoon fed. "Go find out" is an excellent suggestion from Poe for you. Actually read scientific sources on these things, ditch the creationist charlatans.

ChordatesLegacy · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
"Why is it that creationists who claim to be "scientists" don't understand anything about science? quote]

Give me an example of a good creationist scientist in the natural sciences, along with their publications on creationism and creationism ideas.

Split Rock · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
"Why is it that creationists who claim to be "scientists" don't understand anything about science? In science a theory is a testable model based on confirmed hypotheses and observations that explains a set of natural phenomena, and is capable of making testable predictions and is verifiable through empirical observation." - Split Rock

I actually work in the Navy as a meteorologist technician and I have to say that I know a little about science considering the the military trusts my knowledge to help keep people safe and protect lives.

What does the Navy's trust in your abilities as a technician have to do with your claim to be a "scientist?" How can a scientist not understand that a theory is not just an guess or a hunch?

I wonder; during your duties as a meterologist technician, do you take supernatural cause into account? Do you use the Bible to predict which way a storm system will move, or use prayer to get God to move them away from your fellow Naval personel? Or do you instead stick to natural laws and computer models to do your job?

Split Rock · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
So what is argued as the first living cell? Something like a prokaryote perhaps? I do not understand even how something like this single cell came to be. Does it not take faith to believe in evolution?

We do not understand exactly how this happed. However, abiogenesis is not evolution. It requires a population of imperfect replicating organisms for evolution to kick in. This does not mean it requires faith to accept that life has evolved on earth, once it did get started. It is inferred from all the physical evidence.

Aceofspades77 said:
My life outlook and internal structure for viewing life is based on what I've observed in history, science, experience and faith in God. I believe most people have an internal structure and foundation, say a set rule of beliefs and ideas that functions as a viewing mechanism to understand life.

This does not mean you should reject reality, just because you do not like it.

Aceofspades77 said:
How can I put any belief into evolutionary theory when many simple questions I have are unanswered or take a certain level of faith for me to belief in. Even with a simple cell such as the prokaryote as extremely complex as it is, I have to belief that all the millions of complex living organisms today came from something as simple as that or an organism similar?

This is what all the physical evidence tells us. Why should we reject this? Just to make us feel warm and fuzzy inside?

Aceofspades77 said:
Even with all the millions of living examples, tools and modern ingenuity, man has failed to create anything similar to the prokaryote.

So? It took nature longer than man has existed on earth (which is longer than what YEC dogma claims) for nature to produce a prokaryote.

Aceofspades77 said:
I'm not trying to show how evolution fails simply because man can't create life but in just how difficult it is for life to come to be.

Then do tell us why you think the theory of evolution fails. So far, we have soem ideas on your part as to how thermodynamics tells us it is wrong; yet your ideas on thermodynamics run counter to the accepted laws recognized by the scientific community.

Aceofspades77 said:
Now my point is in the fact that I have to belief that the first simple cells came to be by chance via billions of years, perfect conditions at the right time and then these conditions continued for the additional life to progress into what we have today.

It did not take billions of years for live to start on earth. The geological record tells us it took less than a billion years. The conditions for live to form are not the same conditions we see today. We have an oxygenated atmosphere, thanks to the evolution of photosynthesis. Environmental conditions have changed over time, but not enough to destroy life. We have had, nevertheless, a number of Mass Extinction events that killed off many species and higher taxa.

Aceofspades77 said:
What are the odds?

You tell me. Lets say I live in Madison, WI and I get into my car and start to make left and right turns at random. I wind up in downtown New Glarus after three hours. What are the odds that I could get to New Glarus by turning randomly for three hours?

Aceofspades77 said:
My faith that God has created all has been strengthened and verified to me much more strongly than the ideas evolutionary theory has provided.

You asked in another post when did you set the theory of evolution against God... here is where you did so.

Pesto · Jul 15, 2008

Ace, has your initial question about evolution and the 2nd law of thermodynamics been answered?

Nathan Poe · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
Where did I say God is against evolution. I'm against evolution.

Because you're pro-God, and you've been conditioned to think the two are mutually exclusive.

Your telling me that my faith in God is based on my "lack of knowledge"?

No, but your lack of "belief" in evolution is based on a lack of knowledge -- you've admitted as much yourself.

I think your replies are lacking a certain level of maturity. Impressive rebuttal. This is an open thread where I'm trying to stir thinking and find answers but apparently by your reasoning I should "go find out". No need to get all crazy on me Poe.

I understand how grave an insult it must be to you to be told to do your own homework, yet you will discover that's the best way of learning. Perhaps if you had done so concerning evolution, you wouldn't be here in the state you're in.

Aceofspades77 · Jul 15, 2008

Nathan Poe said:
Because you're pro-God, and you've been conditioned to think the two are mutually exclusive.

No, but your lack of "belief" in evolution is based on a lack of knowledge -- you've admitted as much yourself.

I understand how grave an insult it must be to you to be told to do your own homework, yet you will discover that's the best way of learning. Perhaps if you had done so concerning evolution, you wouldn't be here in the state you're in.

If you can't answer my replies I must think from here that you are baffling emotional response.

Lucretius · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
"Why is it that creationists who claim to be "scientists" don't understand anything about science? In science a theory is a testable model based on confirmed hypotheses and observations that explains a set of natural phenomena, and is capable of making testable predictions and is verifiable through empirical observation." - Split Rock

I actually work in the Navy as a meteorologist technician and I have to say that I know a little about science considering the the military trusts my knowledge to help keep people safe and protect lives.

I take it you can divide two integers without understanding number theory, yes?

Being good at applying a scientific theory doesn't mean you understand the scientific method; which was the aspect of science that Split Rock was talking about here.

Vene · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
This is an open thread where I'm trying to stir thinking and find answers but apparently by your reasoning I should "go find out".

It's downright impossible to talk about evolution, all the evidence, and natural selection in a thread without all the people having a good idea what it is to begin with. There's a reason that there are people who spend their life studying evolution. It would be like me starting a thread asking for a detailed explanation of how to predict weather patterns and saying that the meteorologists are wrong about everything they do. After all, the forecasters on the news are wrong a lot of the time, so meteorology is junk science. They're only good at telling me what the weather was like yesterday.

flatworm · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
So what is argued as the first living cell? Something like a prokaryote perhaps? I do not understand even how something like this single cell came to be.

Have you not been listening? No one knows exactly how the first living cell came to be. However, that has nothing to do with the validity of evolution.

Does it not take faith to believe in evolution?

Well, no.

My life outlook and internal structure for viewing life is based on what I've observed in history, science, experience and faith in God. I believe most people have an internal structure and foundation, say a set rule of beliefs and ideas that functions as a viewing mechanism to understand life. How can I put any belief into evolutionary theory when many simple questions I have are unanswered or take a certain level of faith for me to belief in.

Probably because your unanswered questions have nothing to do with the validity of evolution.

Even with a simple cell such as the prokaryote as extremely complex as it is, I have to belief that all the millions of complex living organisms today came from something as simple as that or an organism similar?

Yes. The evidence is quite compelling. The ubiquity of DNA, protein chirality, commonality in metabolic mechanisms, etc. all point to the radiation of life from a common single-celled ancestor. If you're unfamiliar with the evidence, that's hardly the fault of the theory of evolution.

Even with all the millions of living examples, tools and modern ingenuity, man has failed to create anything similar to the prokaryote. I'm not trying to show how evolution fails simply because man can't create life but in just how difficult it is for life to come to be. Now my point is in the fact that I have to belief that the first simple cells came to be by chance via billions of years, perfect conditions at the right time and then these conditions continued for the additional life to progress into what we have today. What are the odds?

Again, this has nothing to do with the validity of evolution. Let me be clear: even if the first forms of life were literally miracled into existence by any god or gods you choose, it does not invalidate the theory of evolution as explaining the diversity of life on earth and the origins of modern species..

My faith that God has created all has been strengthened and verified to me much more strongly than the ideas evolutionary theory has provided.

How? Have you seen a god create life? Have you seen a god at all?

Or are you perhaps simply committing the fallacy of the God of the Gaps, whereby you assume your religious beliefs provide an answer because you simply don't accept any others being proferred?

If science cannot explain how life came to be, that doesn't mean that religion can. Often the only correct answer is "I don't know". Please do try to be a little objective and apply the same standards of evidence to all propositions.

Pesto · Jul 15, 2008

Pesto said:
Ace, has your initial question about evolution and the 2nd law of thermodynamics been answered?

Ace, I repeat. Do you still have questions about the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

Nathan Poe · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
If you can't answer my replies I must think from here that you are baffling emotional response.

What replies?

MoonLancer · Jul 15, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
"Why is it that creationists who claim to be "scientists" don't understand anything about science? In science a theory is a testable model based on confirmed hypotheses and observations that explains a set of natural phenomena, and is capable of making testable predictions and is verifiable through empirical observation." - Split Rock

I actually work in the Navy as a meteorologist technician and I have to say that I know a little about science considering the the military trusts my knowledge to help keep people safe and protect lives.

so on a day to day bases what actions in your job would you consider science or scientific? Are you sure your not just like an orthodontist creationist who seems to think they know something about science? honestly this sounds the a red haring to avoid the question about your misunderstanding of science and what a theory is.

Aceofspades77 · Jul 16, 2008

MoonLancer said:
so on a day to day bases what actions in your job would you consider science or scientific? Are you sure your not just like an orthodontist creationist who seems to think they know something about science? honestly this sounds the a red haring to avoid the question about your misunderstanding of science and what a theory is.

This thread is dying by nothing but "red haring" questions where you fail to counter my points. Why would I argue my ability to reason and understand scientific knowledge with someone who dares find no common ground anymore and judge what I do for a living. I'm trying to show that I have a high respect for the field of science and that I actually work in the science field for the military. Would you like me to mash you on meteorological physics or something more simple like cloud formation? Sound reasoning and maturity have been traded into emotional rebuttal and rude jargon. Besides the folks who were kind enough to share their scientific reasoning with me I sense have already left the board. Your disrespect has been clearly spoken.

Split Rock · Jul 16, 2008

Aceofspades77 said:
This thread is dying by nothing but "red haring" questions where you fail to counter my points. Why would I argue my ability to reason and understand scientific knowledge with someone who dares find no common ground anymore and judge what I do for a living. Sound reasoning and maturity have been traded into emotional rebuttal and rude jargon. Besides the folks who were kind enough to share their scientific reasoning with me I sense have already left the board. Your disrespect has been clearly spoken.

Please answer the question I asked earlier:

I wonder; during your duties as a meterologist technician, do you take supernatural cause into account? Do you use the Bible to predict which way a storm system will move, or use prayer to get God to move them away from your fellow Naval personel? Or do you instead stick to natural laws and computer models to do your job?

Here is a related question: A Category 3 hurricane is approaching the southeastern coast of the U.S. Computer models predict it will make landfall in 24 hrs near Myrtle Beach. It is evacuated. Instead, however, it speeds up, changes direction and heads up the coast before making land fall at Wilmington NC. There is no time to evacuate Wilmington, with the result that many lives are lost. How do we best determine why this happened? A: Assume that the incorrect prediction was due to our lack of understanding how atmospheric conditions affect the movement of hurricanes. We then put more resources into understanding hurricanes and weather patterns. or B> We assume that God (or Satan) moved the hurricane because he wanted to wipe out Wilmington, NC. The only course of action would therefore be to pray more and not waste time and money on scientific research into hurricane movement. After all, if God (or Satan) can move hurricanes on a whim, what would be the point of wasting money on research?

I have very good reasons for asking these questions, concerning why we use science and when we use it.

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