How far does Noahide go....

visionary · Jul 10, 2008

This is the way they see us...

"He did not create it (to be) a waste land, He formed it to be inhabited (and civilized)" (Yeshayahu 45:18). This can only be when all humanity lives justly and righteously. This of course is the theme of the Seven Noachide Commandments with their accompanying laws and ramifications. Consequently, it is obvious and self-evident that in modern times we must carry out the Divine Command we received through Moshe: "To compel all human beings to accept the commandments enjoined upon the descendants of Noach."

--Shabbos Parshas Tsav, 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 35, p. 75.

visionary · Jul 10, 2008

It is decades after these proclamations, and nevertheless, Moshiach still has not come. I have searched and searched for an explanation for this, and the only answer I've found is the following. In previous generations, since haNassi hu hakol ("the Nassi is everything") it was possible to rely on the Nassi's efforts. However, after so long, when even the Previous Rebbe's proclamation has passed and Moshiach still hasn't come, the only possibility is that every single Jew must be involved in bringing the redemption.... This is also the other reason for the stress on the Seven Mitzvos. Since the world has changed, and Moshiach has nevertheless not come, every individual must do everything possible to hasten his coming.

--Purim, 5747, Sichos in English, vol.35, p.6.

ShirChadash · Jul 10, 2008

visionary said:
This is the way they see us...

it's pretty clear the way you see Jews practicing normative Judaism

reallllllly clear.

ShirChadash · Jul 10, 2008

visionary said:
I have searched and searched for an explanation for this, and the only answer I've found is the following.

With the people you consider to be valid and worthy "sources" for your notions, it can no longer be any wonder...

visionary · Jul 10, 2008

ShirChadash said:
it's pretty clear the way you see Jews practicing normative Judaism reallllllly clear.

Hold it... Noahiders is a classification that the Jews have or want to place us under in order to be acceptable. It is a superior vs inferior concept that they believe God gave them the rights to. Jews do not practice noahide but believe that all gentiles better learn to obey.

If you can show me where in all of Judaism, noahide is not acceptable, is not right, and there are Jewish group who are protesting this abomination to the Word of God, this abomination to how God wants his people to think or believe, then I would like to see it.

Otherwise, I am left to believe that what I am reading and seeing on the official noahide websites is true and they have the support of the Jews.

The sanhedrin had a responsibility, and one of them is to settle the issue regarding the Jews who believe in the Messiah Yeshua. They know that by accepting their fellow kinsman in this faith, they have opened up a door that was closed after the revolt of 135 AD. If they accept this 1200 AD concept of Noahide rules, then the dark ages will again darken the landscape of humanity as it is spread throughout the nations under political powers. And it is under political powers and enforcement, that it becomes as dangerous as the inquisition.

Steve Petersen · Jul 10, 2008

This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia article LAWS, NOACHIAN.

In the elaboration of these seven Noachian laws, and in assigning punishments for their transgression, the Rabbis are sometimes more lenient and sometimes more rigorous with Noachidæ than with Israelites. With but a few exceptions, the punishment meted out to a Noachid for the transgression of any of the seven laws is decapitation, the least painful of the four modes of execution of criminals (see Capital Punishment). The many formalities of procedure essential when the accused is an Israelite need not be observed in the case of the Noachid. The latter may be convicted on the testimony of one witness, even on that of relatives, but not on that of a woman. He need have had no warning ("hatra'ah") from the witnesses; and a single judge may pass sentence on him (ib. 57a, b; "Yad," l.c. ix. 14). With regard to idolatry, he can be found guilty only if he worshiped an idol in the regular form in which that particular deity is usually worshiped; while in the case of blasphemy he may be found guilty, even when he has blasphemed with one of the attributes of God's name—an action which, if committed by an Israelite, would not be regarded as criminal (ib. 56b; see Blasphemy).

For the entire article:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=113&letter=L&search=laws%20of%20noah

ChazakEmunah · Jul 10, 2008

Lulav said:
From someones blog that doesn't like the term Judeo-Christian:

The ruling of the most authoritative "sage" of Judaism, Moses Maimonides:It may interest "Judeo-Christians" to know that while "elder brother" Maimonides strictly maintained Christians to be idolaters, he ruled that Muslims are not idolators:
"These Muslims [Ishmaelim] are not in any way idolators. [Idolatry] has already been removed from their mouths and their hearts, and they unify G-d in the appropriate manner without any admixture [of idolatrous beliefs]." (Maimonides, Responsa, 448)
However, this should not be taken to mean that Islam should be tolerated according to Maimonides. In fact, Maimonides completely forbids Islam under Judaic rule (Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim 8;11). Christians and Muslims would be forced to accept the Talmudic religion for goys, the "Noahide Laws." Christians who uphold the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ would be executed:

Will the world soon be run by all Jewish courts?

Under the Mashiach? You bet it will. May it happen speedily and in our days.

ChazakEmunah · Jul 10, 2008

visionary said:
That is good news because noahide laws are being politically pushed and that is dangerous.

Not at all. The world is being prepped for the Mashiach.

ChazakEmunah · Jul 10, 2008

Nooj said:
More like that person doesn't like Judaism altogether. Certainly an 'interesting' blog. He seems quite interested in talking about Zionism though...

And a little later on he mentions how Israelis had a connection to JFK's assassination:

Wow...

ShirChadash · Jul 10, 2008

ChazakEmunah said:
Wow...

oh, keep reading CE. The agenda becomes even clearer...

FaithfulWife · Jul 10, 2008

I hate to jump into this as I'm afraid it will turn into a fight, but may I point out one thing that I think is being overlooked?

Try as they might, politicians can not legislate morality or bring about Moshiach in man's time by man's means.

Vis, I think you might be freaking out a little because you're feeling like the Noahiders are going to try to take over the world and make every deny their real religion, etc. And I have no doubt that some are zealous enough to have that be their long-term goal! But I also think that there is one big distinction. The Noahide laws are HaShem speaking, and in super-duper broad strokes He's saying (paraphrasing here) "...there are laws that every living human being should live by, but a Jewish person has even MORE responsibilities (laws) because they are the ones I chose." The Noahide laws are like "common decency" laws--and I have no doubt that some folks have gotten over zealous and said they are the bare minimum to stay alive! Every major world religion has their folks who are extreme or zealots--even christians have folks who pick up poisonous snakes and stuff.

So on the one hand, I think when some folks here reply "Yahoo I look forward to the day that the Noahide Laws are obeyed and HaShem is the name that causes every knee to bow and every tongue confess"--but that is a spiritual event that will take place in God's time. That is WAY different than saying "Yahoo, I look forward to the day that a small group of zealots force everyone to obey Noahide Laws or kill themn so that we can force HaShem's hand and MAKE the Moshiach come." See, I think those two statements are being jumbled into one pile in your mind and they are not.

I too look forward to the day that has been promised when every knee will bow and every tongue confess the name of The One! I too believe that in that day the Noahide Laws will be obeyed by everyone out of respect and love for HaShem--not because some politician forced them or some zealot said they would kill them. In a way I view it very much like I view the timing of when Yehashua came to earth--He came when it pleased HaShem and the time was right, not when some we here on earth did anything to "make it happen." Same here. Every knee will bow WILLINGLY when HaShem comes and it will be when it pleases HIM, not when we here on earth necessarily do anything to "make it happen." In other words, we are here for His Glory and we wait on Him.

How about if everyone take a breath?

ChazakEmunah · Jul 10, 2008

visionary said:
Think about it for a moment... They are declaring the the foundation of this nation was not on Judeo-Christian values but on Noahide...

The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Noahide Laws in legislation which was passed by both houses. Congress and the President of the United States, George Bush, indicated in Public Law 102-14, 102nd Congress, that the United States of America was founded upon the Seven Universal Laws of Noah, and that these Laws have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization. They also acknowledged that the Seven Laws of Noah are the foundation upon which civilization stands and that recent weakening of these principles threaten the fabric of civilized society, and that justified preoccupation in educating the Citizens of the United States of America and future generations is needed. For this purpose, this Public Law designated March 26, 1991 as Education Day, U.S.A.

I do not believe that any pilgram or any signers of the declaration of independence believe that for one moment... Slowly changing how history is perceived.

Actually... I'm quite sure the Founding Fathers would have agreed to such a thing. Do you know that they were contemplating making Hebrew the national language?

Steve Petersen · Jul 10, 2008

ChazakEmunah said:
Actually... I'm quite sure the Founding Fathers would have agreed to such a thing. Do you know that they were contemplating making Hebrew the national language?

I'd have to see proof of that. This sort of stuff was making the rounds in MJ circles a while back.

Talmidah · Jul 10, 2008

Ya know, it is very interesting to know the true views of folks in this forum.

Talmidah · Jul 10, 2008

ShirChadash said:
With the people you consider to be valid and worthy "sources" for your notions, it can no longer be any wonder...

Not only that, its lovely the way some people take some quote out of context and make it say basically whatever they want. Funny that.

FaithfulWife · Jul 10, 2008

Rather than get sidetracked by "who said what" back in 1776, may I politely point out that Education Day was inaugurated in 1978 by President Jimmy Carter, and that it was originally a day in honor of Rabbi Schneerson (that Chabad Rebbe)? Every president since then has proclaimed that day as a day to remember that the Rebbe tried to teach Jews and non-Jews alike the laws of common-decency.

Redheadedstepchild · Jul 10, 2008

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This thread is temporarily closed for review. Thank you for your patience.

Mod Hat Off

visionary · Jul 10, 2008

Qalevra said:
Interesting accusation coming from someone who believes that all must believe in Jesus or burn in hell forever. You have definitely taken David Duke to heart with all this superior vs. inferior talk. You're quickly crossing the line to anti-Semite.

how about giving me a correct understanding .. rather than accuse me of believing in burning in hell forever which I don't.

No, you choose to read and believe what you find on anti-Semitic sites and then use that as ammunition against us. Your google scholarship is failing you yet again.

This is an official noahide website which I use.. http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm

Blame the Jews much?

no just bad theology that has the potential of being politically dangerous.

Ok, you tried to convert us. You failed. And now you're changing your tune to that of "oppressor", spreading hate and lies about the Jewish people. This is a perfect microcosm of the cycle that permeates in the relationship between Christians and Jews.

Maybe you could help change all that by telling me of your efforts to explain the benefits of enforced religion

Sad. Disgusting. But not shocking. It was foretold in Isaiah 53.

Haben Sie die Antwort fur die judische Frage?

Let me ask you... what you do if you found out that they are going to go through with the enforcement of the law and everyone [Christian] will be beheaded? Do you nod your head and think that this is a righteous deed to be done or do you see the atrocity of the enforcement or else placed upon your fellow man?

visionary · Jul 10, 2008

Steve Petersen said:
This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia article LAWS, NOACHIAN.

In the elaboration of these seven Noachian laws, and in assigning punishments for their transgression, the Rabbis are sometimes more lenient and sometimes more rigorous with Noachidæ than with Israelites. With but a few exceptions, the punishment meted out to a Noachid for the transgression of any of the seven laws is decapitation, the least painful of the four modes of execution of criminals (see Capital Punishment). The many formalities of procedure essential when the accused is an Israelite need not be observed in the case of the Noachid. The latter may be convicted on the testimony of one witness, even on that of relatives, but not on that of a woman. He need have had no warning ("hatra'ah") from the witnesses; and a single judge may pass sentence on him (ib. 57a, b; "Yad," l.c. ix. 14). With regard to idolatry, he can be found guilty only if he worshiped an idol in the regular form in which that particular deity is usually worshiped; while in the case of blasphemy he may be found guilty, even when he has blasphemed with one of the attributes of God's namean action which, if committed by an Israelite, would not be regarded as criminal (ib. 56b; see Blasphemy).

For the entire article:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=113&letter=L&search=laws%20of%20noah

That looks like a pretty good source, right out of their own encyclopedia. Thanks for bringing that forward.

visionary · Jul 10, 2008

ChazakEmunah said:
Under the Mashiach? You bet it will. May it happen speedily and in our days.

Amen

How far does Noahide go....

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