What is "Once Saved Always Saved," anyway?

Originally posted by Hanani
Jesaiah i don't mind a tangent just don't change the topic of the thread

and plz paraphrase that huge mess of copy paste work cause reading stuff that small hurts my head

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I bolded the "cut and paste" but I will not paraphrase it because I believe that the entire section of commentary is needed to show the point. Anyway it is addressed to Miss Shelby

Could you please spell "please" rather than "plz"?

Hi Jes,

That in thy name we have cast out devils? That may be too; Judas cast out devils, and yet was a son of perdition. Origen says, that in his time so prevalent was the name of Christ to cast out devils, that sometimes it availed when named by wicked Christians. A man might cast devils out of others, and yet have a devil, nay, be a devil himse

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How can this be true when Jesus said in Matthew Chapter 12 that satan cannot cast out satan or his kingdom will not stand? When Jesus was on earth this was kingdom authority. Judas was not only casting out demons, but he was given heavenly kingdom authority.

Michelle

"Outspoken, you're taking that verse out of context. Yes, Paul was speaking of Israel, but He wasn't speaking to the idea of the Gentile salvation."

ya'll aren't reading the passage. Paul was DEFINATLY speaking of salvation. That's what the whole passage was about. The covenant given to Israel was they would be saved. Now they rejected Christ and Paul struggles with the fact, will they still be saved? The answer he comes up with is yes, because you cannot repent of one of God's gifts. He then links it to gentile salvation as well in those two verses saying you cannot repent of God's gifts (ie salvation). Please read the context of the passage before jumping to wrong conclusions.

"Their salvation is given because of the faithfulness of their father, Abraham. Our salvation, in contast, is by grace through faith, but without works, that faith is absolutely meaningless.
"

No, Paul makes it very clear we are grafted onto the SAME tree. Paul doesn't know how it will happen, but is confidient that it will because God is no lier.

"If we are saved by faith, then it'll take faith to keep salvation. "

I agree, but you mistake James for talking about something he is not. When you are a christian you cannot help but do God's work. Read chapter 1 for the context of James saying that. You can't throw away your salvation, its impossible, you're a new creation.

"will always be there no matter how much we screw up but we still must use it"

What do you mean by use it? You dont' have to use it at all, in fact the less you "use it" the better!

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
Hi Jes,


How can this be true when Jesus said in Matthew Chapter 12 that satan cannot cast out satan or his kingdom will not stand? When Jesus was on earth this was kingdom authority. Judas was not only casting out demons, but he was given heavenly kingdom authority.

Michelle

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Hi Miss Shelby

You bring up good points

It brings to mind Proverbs 27:17 "Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another. " Here is a section of Matthew Henry's commentary that might be helpful.

v. 25–30. Jesus knew their thoughts. Note, Jesus Christ knows what we are thinking at any time, knows what is in man; he understands our thoughts afar off. It should seem that the Pharisees could not for shame speak it out, but kept it in their minds; they could not expect to satisfy the people with it; they therefore reserved it for the silencing of the convictions of their own consciences. Note, Many are kept off from their duty by that which they are ashamed to own, but which they cannot hide from Jesus Christ: yet it is probable that the Pharisees had whispered what they thought among themselves, to help to harden one another; but Christ’s reply is said to be to their thoughts, because he knew with what mind, and from what principle, they said it; that they did not say it in their haste, but that it was the product of a rooted malignity. Christ’s reply to this imputation is copious and cogent, that every mouth may be stopped with sense and reason, before it be stopped with fire and brimstone. Here are three arguments by which he demonstrates the unreasonableness of this suggestion. 1. It would be very strange, and highly improbably, that Satan should be cast out by such a compact, because then Satan’s kingdom would be divided against itself; which, considering his subtlety, is not a thing to be imagined, v. 25, 26. (1.) Here is a known rule laid down, that in all societies a common ruin is the consequence of mutual quarrels: Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every family too: Quae enim domus tam stabilis est, quae tam firma civitas, quae non odiis atque dissidiis funditus everti possit?—For what family is so strong, what community so firm, as not to be overturned by enmity and dissension? Cic. Lael. 7. Divisions commonly end in desolations; if we clash, we break; if we divide one from another, we become an easy prey to a common enemy; much more if we bite and devour one another, shall we be consumed one of another, Gal. 5:15. Churches and nations have known this by sad experience. (2.) The application of it to the case in hand (v. 26), If Satan cast out Satan; if the prince of the devils should be at variance with the inferior devils, the whole kingdom and interest would soon be broken; nay, if Satan should come into a compact with Christ, it must be to his own ruin; for the manifest design and tendency of Christ’s preaching and miracles was to overthrow the kingdom of Satan, as a kingdom of darkness, wickedness, and enmity to God; and to set up, upon the ruins of it, a kingdom of light, holiness, and love. The works of the devil, as a rebel against God, and a tyrant over the souls of men, were destroyed by Christ; and therefore it was the most absurd thing imaginable, to think that Beelzebub should at all countenance such a design, or come into it: if he should fall in with Christ, how should then his kingdom stand? He would himself contribute to the overthrow of it. Note, The devil has a kingdom, a common interest, in opposition to God and Christ, which, to the utmost of his power, he will make to stand, and he will never come into Christ’s interests; he must be conquered and broken by Christ, and therefore cannot submit and bend to him. What concord or communion can there be between light and darkness, Christ and Belial, Christ and Beelzebub? Christ will destroy the devil’s kingdom, but he needs not do it by any such little arts and projects as that of a secret compact with Beelzebub; no, this victory must be obtained by nobler methods. Let the prince of the devils muster up all his forces, let him make use of all his powers and politics, and keep his interests in the closest confederacy, yet Christ will be too hard for his united force, and his kingdom shall not stand. 2. It was not at all strange, or improbable, that devils should be cast out by the Spirit of God; for, (1.) How otherwise do your children cast them out? There were those among the Jews who, by invocation of the name of the most high God, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, did sometimes cast out devils. Josephus speaks of some in his time that did it; we read of Jewish exorcists (Acts 19:13), and of some that in Christ’s name cast out devils, though they did not follow him (Mk. 9:38), or were not faithful to him, ch. 7:22. These the Pharisees condemned not, but imputed what they did to the Spirit of God, and valued themselves and their nation upon it. It was therefore merely from spite and envy to Christ, that they would own that others cast out devils by the Spirit of God, but suggest that he did it by compact with Beelzebub.

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Originally posted by Jesaiah


I must say that I REALLY disagree with you. No man can live a sinless life. We still live in the flesh and thus will sin. Even the Apostle Paul spoke of the lifelong struggle in Romans 7. 

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exactly a life long struggle not a one time deal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

and if you say that you cannot be sinless you are limmiting the power of God

i never said it was probable just that with God it is possible

Originally posted by Hanani
 

exactly a life long struggle not a one time deal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The Christian life is a life long struggle, not the issue of salvation One must be saved to know this struggle because it is a struggle of the two natures: Spirit vs. Man. And, as I showed in the scriptures, that only Christians (those who are saved) have the Holy Spirit living inside them. So you must be saved to experience this struggle.

and if you say that you cannot be sinless you are limmiting the power of God

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Really, you believe that while on earth I or any other person could be perfect, sinless? Wow.

1st John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.


I only know of one man that has ever and can ever live a sinless life: Jesus Christ. Until we enter into eternal rest with God we will sin. It is not until we are transformed into our glorified bodies and no longer live in these fleshly bodies that we will sin no more.

yes but when you give in to the flesh you have broken contract and need to fix it by asking for forgiveness

i did not say that someone would have never sinned i said after they got saved if it was Gods will that is possible

and ecclesiastes says the word never i said with God it is possible with God anything that does not go against his own character is possible

and even though it may not be probable we should always strive to use Gods grace and become sinless as Jesus was and with osas it gives people an excuse not to do that wich is unacceptable doctrine

I think it's possible that many of the points that I made in my previous post were misunderstood, so let me be more clear about my position about this issue.

I believe that the Bible clearly reveals that it is definitely possible to lose your salvation. But, although it is POSSIBLE, I believe that it is highly unlikely and if you're worried about having lost it, you haven't.

Now, in my previous quote, I referenced the well-known Matt. 7:21-"Not evey one that saith, Lord Lord..." In this scripture text, it is abundantly clear that these were CHRISTIANS. The Bible says in Mark 16:17-18 that many of the things that these people did were SIGNS that were to only follow believers. Don't read too much into what is clearly stated. Casting out devils and healing the sick are SIGNS. If they're not supernatural abilities specific to believers, then they WOULD NOT serve as signs.

The Matthew Henry commentary quoted by Jesaiah was incorrect, but understandable. Many commentators don't want to make any points pertaining to such controversial issues. The whole idea that these people DID THESE THINGS IN CHRIST'S NAME shows that they weren't just doctors or devils, they were people who had FAITH IN THE NAME OF JESUS. The evidence is clear. Don't fight against it.

Now, I don't think that committing a sin is what causes us to lose our salvation. Consider the fact that NOT committing sin IS NOT WHAT SAVED US TO BEGIN WITH. We are saved by grace through faith, therefore we must continue in the faith in order to keep that salvation. Now, in order to MAINTAIN a healthy relationship with the Lord, it requires holiness and repentance... In Matt. 7:21, the people didn't lack faith but they DID lack holiness and their unholiness is what caused Jesus not to know them. Therefore, they were cast away from the Lord's presence... Not because they necessarily weren't saved from sin, but because they didn't LIVE according to that salvation.

Hebrews 12:14 says that if we do not PURSUE holiness, WE WILL NOT SEE THE LORD. Don't be tricked. It's DEFINITELY possible to be saved from sin but yet not be in active pursuit of holiness... What do you think a backslider is????? It doesn't mean that backsliders aren't still saved (because they may still have faith), but they are not in active pursuit of holiness, of being like the Lord-but the Bible declares that He's MARRIED to the backslider so their still being saved is biblically apparent. BUT, it doesn't mean that they'll go to heaven.

We are not saved from hell. We are saved from bondage to sin. That salvation gives us the RIGHT and ABILITY to escape hell, but we MUST STILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT RIGHT.

I hope this clears my position.
I love you and God bless.

Originally posted by mellymell

The Matthew Henry commentary quoted by Jesaiah was incorrect, but understandable. Many commentators don't want to make any points pertaining to such controversial issues. The whole idea that these people DID THESE THINGS IN CHRIST'S NAME shows that they weren't just doctors or devils, they were people who had FAITH IN THE NAME OF JESUS. The evidence is clear. Don't fight against it.

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The whole context of Matthew 7:21 is that a tree is known by its fruit. We call a tree an apple tree because it produces apples. This was the moral of the story. Just because one says they are/were Christian does make it true, they must bear fruit. The meaning that you try to invoke upon the passage does not fit within the context.

Now, I don't think that committing a sin is what causes us to lose our salvation. Consider the fact that NOT committing sin IS NOT WHAT SAVED US TO BEGIN WITH. We are saved by grace through faith, therefore we must continue in the faith in order to keep that salvation. Now, in order to MAINTAIN a healthy relationship with the Lord, it requires holiness and repentance... In Matt. 7:21, the people didn't lack faith but they DID lack holiness and their unholiness is what caused Jesus not to know them. Therefore, they were cast away from the Lord's presence... Not because they necessarily weren't saved from sin, but because they didn't LIVE according to that salvation.

Hebrews 12:14 says that if we do not PURSUE holiness, WE WILL NOT SEE THE LORD. Don't be tricked. It's DEFINITELY possible to be saved from sin but yet not be in active pursuit of holiness... What do you think a backslider is????? It doesn't mean that backsliders aren't still saved (because they may still have faith), but they are not in active pursuit of holiness, of being like the Lord-but the Bible declares that He's MARRIED to the backslider so their still being saved is biblically apparent. BUT, it doesn't mean that they'll go to heaven.

We are not saved from hell. We are saved from bondage to sin. That salvation gives us the RIGHT and ABILITY to escape hell, but we MUST STILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT RIGHT.

I hope this clears my position.
I love you and God bless.

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I will disagree with you on your definition of salvation. We are saved from our sin and the results of our sin (death and hell). That was Christ's purpose for dying for our sin. That is why it is called atonement. In your opinion, correct me if I am wrong, Christ saves you and you have to work your way to heaven by "being holy" otherwise you go to hell? Seems like Christ's death was in vain

 

I will disagree with you on your definition of salvation. We are saved from our sin and the results of our sin (death and hell). That was Christ's purpose for dying for our sin. That is why it is called atonement. In your opinion, correct me if I am wrong, Christ saves you and you have to work your way to heaven by "being holy" otherwise you go to hell? Seems like Christ's death was in vain

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Well, unfortunately what you summed up about what I was saying is absolutely right. Christ's death gives us the right to escape hell, but it doesn't MAKE it so. You said "...you have to work your way to heaven by 'being holy' otherwise you go to hell..." That's absolutely correct. That's why the Bible says in Hebrews 12:14- "Pursue peace with all men, AND holiness, without which no man shall see that Lord." If you're not in pursuit of holiness, you will NOT see the Lord... and understand that the entire foundation of heaven is the manifested presence of the Lord.

You're not only disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with very clearly given scriptures. Now, anybody can read so far into a verse that its meaning is totally twarted... but I ask you to take this verse for what it means, not for what you wish it meant.

Secondly, as for the Matthew 7 quote, I wasn't taking that verse out of context. You say that these people were only CLAIMING to be Christians but had no fruit. I disagree. The fact that they cast out devils and healed the sick serves as SIGNS to their status as believers. Again, Mark 16:17-18 says that those signs would follow THEM THAT BELIEVE. So, salvation wasn't the problem... their unholy lifestyles are what separated them from the Lord. Remember: SIN separates our Holy God from His unholy people.

Isaiah 59:2-"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear."

Originally posted by Jesaiah

In your opinion, correct me if I am wrong, Christ saves you and you have to work your way to heaven by "being holy" otherwise you go to hell? Seems like Christ's death was in vain

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Certainly not. His death is what allows us to get to heaven at all, but it doesn't just instantaneously put us there. We still have to accept the gift, and have the true faith manifesting itself in works and baptism. All of these are simply manifestations of faith, although I suppose you can view them as "works" if you want. Now, some do see this as blasphemy or as "nullifying the cross", but Catholics (and probably other ONSAS people) do not see it that way.

-Chris

We make this stuff harder than it needs to be.

Consider this: God never refused to forgive sin before the cross.

PS 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you

and did not cover up my iniquity.

I said, "I will confess

my transgressions to the LORD"--

and you forgave

the guilt of my sin.

How many OT examples of forgivness through confession or works do you want me to post? There are many more.



So; what changed with the cross?

Originally posted by mellymell
 


You're not only disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with very clearly given scriptures. Now, anybody can read so far into a verse that its meaning is totally twarted... but I ask you to take this verse for what it means, not for what you wish it meant.

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No, I believe that we are saved by grace. We seek after holiness because we have been saved, not to be saved! We once were dead in our sins but through Christ have been made alive, given a new life! Read Ephesians 2:8-10. It is only after we are saved that we do good works or seek after holiness! Not we seek after holiness to be saved You have the cart before the horse.


Be well,


Jesaiah

Ps. Did you read in my earlier post about those who could perform miracles and magic who were pagans and unbelievers?

Jesaiah,

I did read your reply concerning the people who performed the miracles and I replied to it.

As for putting the cart before the horse, I'm not doing that. I strongly believe that you can't pursue holiness until AFTER you have gotten saved because you can't BE HOLY WITHOUT SALVATION. So, we're in agreement on that. My thing is that holiness gives us the right and the ability to live holy IF WE CHOOSE TO. And then AFTER living holy, THEN we're permitted into our Kingdom reward. But, otherwise the cross was in vain for us. If we don't take advantage of the gift by LIVING holy (reference the scripture I provided in Hebrews about holiness or hell), we won't make it in.

So, I agree. We are saved ONLY by grace through our faith. But, the question now becomes, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH YOUR SALVATION? Will you continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul said, "God forbid!" So, just because we are saved, it doesn't alleviate our RESPONSIBILITY to God to now pursue holiness, because without holiness, we will NOT see the Lord. Now, that's Scripture. And yes, it is possible to be saved and not be holy. So, that means that there are saved folk who will go to hell because although their FAITH saved them, their LIVESTYLES ****** them.

As I have previously said, salvation is not from hell absolutely. It gives us the right to become the sons of God, but we must take advantage of that right by our works. Remember James 2:24 - "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." -- Doesn't get much clearer than that.

Now, I'm not saying that James is saying that we're saved by works. But, our salvation is JUSTIFIED when we have good works which accompany our faith.

I love you and God bless.

"In this scripture text, it is abundantly clear that these were CHRISTIANS."

No, it does not. It is the people that called out to him and he says, I NEVER knew you. Thus we can conclude they were never christians.

"Casting out devils and healing the sick are SIGNS."

Yes, and people that are not christians can do this. That is also stated in the passage I reference to.

The bottom line is that nothing can snatch us out of God's hand, even our own sin. Christ died for our future sin as well as our present and past ones. It also states in romans that you can't repent of God's gifts.

MellyMell,

As I have previously said, salvation is not from hell absolutely. It gives us the right to become the sons of God, but we must take advantage of that right by our works.

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Again I disagree with you Read Ephesians 1:5-12. It clearly states that through Christ we have been adopted as sons and we have obtained an inheritance. In order to obtain an inheritance you must be "part of the family." We are told in this passage that through salvation we have obtained our inheritance not by the works or acts of holiness that we do. Our works or acts of holiness do not help us gain any type of salvation or deliverance but rather is proof of our salvation. It is the fruit that people can see, showing that Christ has truly transformed us, saved us, and given us new life in him.


Be well


Ps. Did you get your screen name from an old school rapper?

*ahem*

It is the people that called out to him and he says, I NEVER knew you. Thus we can conclude they were never christians.

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Correction:

• Matthew 10:32-34.
  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
  
• II Timothy 2:11-13.
  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

That's what happened to these faithless Christians at the Judgement.

Yes, and people that are not christians can do this.

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*snip*

No, they can't.

Remember this...?

• 
  Acts 19:13-17.
  Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
  And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
  And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
  And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
  And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Not exactly an unmitigated success, was it?

"Correction:"

YOu obviously missed a key passage
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"

If you look God clearly says he NEVER knew them, yet they did do works in his name.

Next time Evangelion you might want to cover all your bases Its very clear that these people were nonchristians and they did exactly what I said they did.

Outspoken -

If you look God clearly says he NEVER knew them, yet they did do works in his name.

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No, God doesn't say anything. It's Jesus talking, not God.

Next time Evangelion you might want to cover all your bases Its very clear that these people were nonchristians and they did exactly what I said they did.

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I covered my bases quite nicely, thankyou. Please read Matthew 10:32-34, and II Timothy 2:11-13. (You will find them in that part of my previous post which you found it necessary to ignore.)

For your convenience, I have highlighted the salient points.

It is now time for you to address them.

"No, God doesn't say anything. It's Jesus talking, not God"

Yes, do you think Christ is not God?

"It is now time for you to address them"

why do I need to when I showed you EXPLICTLY a passage that proves I was telling you the truth?

Okay, just for you though, Matt 10 is refering to a true confession, not always a vocal one. It is something that God views the heart on, that is what scripture says. As for the 2 tim passage, my quote is in reference to another passage, one that this doesn't address at all.

As far as the acts passage goes this is a specific instance not a universal experience. Again the passage I gave to you in Matt shows that.