If not Peter, who was the first RC Pope?

simonthezealot said:

Polo I cited a catholic university translation, in fact the only place i'd bet you'll find admonish is newadvent i've been buried in anf writings for going on 4 years and have not seen that pathetic translation until recently, and Polo I commonly cross reference between ccel and earlychristinianwritings and documentacatholicaomnia.eu as in each case there is a level of integrity that must be maintained.
What's the point on ireneaus? there were stearn letters powerful letters sent out from bishops from all over the place? nothing new under the sun there...Only catholics would force more into that reading, if you read that whole chapter what becomes evidently clear is that it was not Peter alone establishing the church in Rome in this like ALL anf writings you see peter AND paul and many cases form a better argument for Paul, with the exception of Antioch the one area we know Peter alone passed on the bishopric.

Click to expand...

ToxicReboMan said:

We all know the Catholic answer to this question. However, this question is intended for non-Catholics. We can name the founder(s) of all the other Christian denominations, so who was the first leader of the RCC?

Click to expand...

ToxicReboMan said:

We have a Protestant consensus. Here it is. The first Pope could have been Leo, Henry, Barney, Constantine, George Bush, or possibly Nelson Mandela. Please feel free to add to the Protestant consensus.

Click to expand...

simonthezealot said:

What's the point on ireneaus?

Click to expand...

there were stearn letters powerful letters sent out from bishops from all over the place

Click to expand...

The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas to Beroea during the night (Acts 17:10)

Click to expand...

tadoflamb said:

I was just reading about St. Paul and his trip to Beroea.



St. Paul was sent by somebody else. He recognized and obeyed an authority above his own.

Click to expand...

MrPolo said:

The point shows that your efforts to deny authority in Clement's letter is debunked by Irenaeus, not to mention the text of the letter itself.

If you recall in our infamous, monumental debate, I even named some of those letters by Ignatius (post 9 of debate).

But again for other lurkers out there, the primal authority in Clement's letter does not rest alone on it using authoritative language. So finding other letters with this single characteristic does not eradicate a primal bishopric. Even today, there are bishops writing letters for the teaching of the larger Church, much as then Cardinal Ratzinger used to do prior to becoming Pope.

In viewing the early Church, one must collect all the factors that point to the authority at Rome. Like the Scriptural prophecies of Peter's keys, Peter's primacy, Peter's bishopric succession, Clement's letter, the Corinthians having actively appealed to Rome to settle a problem, the continued appeal by Corinth to Rome, the appeal to Roman approval by early Church councils, Cyprians submission to the Pope against his own personal opinions, the continued behavior toward Roman appeal in the subsequent centuries without a cry of heresy.....etc...etc...detailed with some depth in the infamous debate. Some people will futilely even go so far as to deny that these realities are even a "seed" upon which a Papacy could develop. Some people have their own motives.

p.s. there is no debate that Peter was the bishop of Rome, not Paul. They both founded the Church there, but all early writings list Peter as first bishop, not Paul. See again debate post #9. This fact was not in question by any ECF I know of.

Click to expand...

simonthezealot said:

Maybe it was Paul???????
Pauline Primacy-51 Reasons
1. Paul is the only apostle who is called God's chosen vessel who will bear His name before Jews and Gentiles (Acts 9:15).
2. Paul is the last apostle chosen by God, apart from the other twelve.
3. The resurrected Christ appears to Paul in a different way than He appeared to the other apostles (Acts 9:3-6).
4. Paul is the only apostle who publicly rebukes and corrects another apostle (Galatians 2:11).
5. Paul is the only apostle who refers to his authority over all the churches (1 Corinthians 4:17, 7:17, 2 Corinthians 11:28).
6. Paul is the only apostle to call himself "father" (1 Corinthians 4:15).
7. Paul is the steward of God's grace (Ephesians 3:2). This means that Paul is the overseer of salvation. Fellowship with Paul and his successors is necessary for salvation.
8. Paul is mentioned more in the New Testament than any other apostle.
9. The book of Acts, which mentions all of the apostles, discusses Paul more than any other apostle.
10. Paul was the first apostle to write a book of scripture.
11. Paul wrote more books of the New Testament than any other apostle.
12. Paul is the first apostle to be taken to Heaven to receive a revelation (2 Corinthians 12:1-4).
13. Paul is the only apostle Satan was concerned about enough to give him a thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:7).
14. Paul seems to have suffered for Christ more than any other apostle (2 Corinthians 11:21-33).
15. Paul seems to have received more opposition from false teachers than any other apostle did, since he was the Pope (Romans 3:8, 2 Corinthians 10:10, Galatians 1:7, 6:17, Philippians 1:17).
16. Paul seems to have traveled further and more often than any other apostle, as we see in Acts and his epistles, which is what we might expect a Pope to do.
17. Only Paul's teachings were so advanced, so deep, that another apostle acknowledged that some of his teachings were hard to understand (2 Peter 3:15-16). Peter's understanding of doctrine doesn't seem to be as advanced as Pope Paul's. Paul has the primacy of doctrinal knowledge.
18. Paul was the first apostle whose writings were recognized as scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16).
19. Paul singles himself out as the standard of orthodoxy (1 Corinthians 14:37-38).
20. Only Paul refers to himself having a rod, a symbol of authority (1 Corinthians 4:21).
21. Paul initiates the council of Acts 15 by starting the debate with the false teachers (Acts 15:2) and delivering a report to the other church leaders (Acts 15:4).
22. Peter's comments in Acts 15:7-11 are accepted only because Pope Paul goes on to confirm them (Acts 15:12).
23. When the Corinthians were dividing over which apostle to associate themselves with, Paul's name was the first one mentioned (1 Corinthians 1:12).
24. Paul was the only apostle with the authority to deliver people over to Satan (1 Corinthians 5:5).
25. Paul had the best training and education of all the apostles (Philippians 3:4-6).
26. Paul is the only apostle to call the gospel "my gospel" (Romans 2:16).
27. Paul writes more about the identity of the church than any other apostle does (1 Corinthians 12, Colossians 1, Ephesians 4-5), which we might expect a Pope to do. Paul is the standard of orthodoxy and the Vicar of Christ on earth, so he has the primary responsibility for defining what the church is and who belongs to it.
28. Paul writes more about church government than any other apostle does, such as in his pastoral epistles.
29. Paul discusses church unity more than any other apostle does (1 Corinthians 12-14, Ephesians 4), suggesting that he was the one responsible for maintaining church unity because of his papal authority.
30. Paul writes more about the gospel than any other apostle does (Romans, Galatians). As the leader of Christianity, Paul was most responsible for explaining the gospel and other Christian doctrine.
31. After Jesus, Paul speaks more about the kingdom of God than anybody else does (Acts 14:22, 19:8, 1 Corinthians 4:20, Galatians 5:21, 2 Thessalonians 1:5). After leaving earth, Jesus passed on the responsibility of teaching about the kingdom of God to Paul, the king of the church on earth.
32. Paul speaks of revealing mysteries more than any other apostle does (Romans 11:25, 1 Corinthians 15:51, Ephesians 5:32, 6:19, 2 Thessalonians 2:7), since he was the chief teacher of the church.
33. Paul was the only apostle other people tried to impersonate (2 Thessalonians 2:2), since he had more authority than anybody else.
34. Paul's clothing works miracles (Acts 19:11-12).
35. Paul is delivered from death more than any other apostle (Acts 14:19, 28:3-6, 2 Corinthians 11:23).
36. The Jewish exorcists in Acts 19:13 associate themselves with Paul rather than with any other apostle.
37. The demons in Acts 19:15 recognize Paul's primacy.
38. The Jews in Acts 21:28 recognize Paul's primacy, saying that he's the man they hold most responsible for teaching Christianity everywhere.
39. Paul had authority over the finances of the church (Acts 24:26, 2 Corinthians 9:5, Philippians 4:15-18).
40. Paul acts as the chief shepherd of the church, taking responsibility for each individual (2 Corinthians 11:29). For example, Paul was Peter's shepherd (Galatians 2:11).
41. Paul interprets prophecy (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12).
42. Only Paul is referred to as being set apart for his ministry from his mother's womb (Galatians 1:15).
43. Jesus Christ is revealed in Paul (Galatians 1:16), meaning that Paul and his successors are the infallible standard of Christian orthodoxy.
44. Paul is the only apostle who works by himself, only later coordinating his efforts with the other apostles (Galatians 1:16-18).
45. Only Paul is referred to as bearing the brandmarks of Christ (Galatians 6:17).
46. Every Christian was interested in Paul and what was happening in his life, looking to him as their example and their encouragement (Philippians 1:12-14).
47. Christians served Paul (Philippians 2:30).
48. Paul worked more than the other apostles (1 Corinthians 15:10), since he had more responsibilities as Pope.
49. Paul was to be delivered from every evil deed (2 Timothy 4:18), meaning that he was infallible.
50. Only Paul is referred to as passing his papal authority on to successors who would also have authority over the church of God (Acts 20:28).
51. Among the seven churches addressed in Revelation 2-3, the church of Ephesus is mentioned first, since the bishops of Ephesus have primacy as the successors of Paul. The church in Ephesus "cannot endure evil men" (Revelation 2:2), meaning that the bishop of Ephesus is infallible when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals. The Ephesian church puts false teachers to the test (Revelation 2:2) by exercising its papal authority. The bishop of Ephesus has the responsibility of evaluating all teachers and declaring which are orthodox and which are not. None of the other churches in Revelation 2-3 are described as having this authority.

Click to expand...