Why do most people seem more afraid of offending men than offending God?
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Why do people who think they are so much holier than everyone else- assume the very worst about the character of others? What is the point of a thread like this but to disparage some faceless people with unsavory attributes?
You can't know the inner workings of any human being- what goes on in their mind and soul...there is no way from the outside to lay any claims on anyone's motivations.
The GReat Commandments are two fold (and not really seperable) Love the Lord Your God, and and love your neighbor.
It isn't an either/or--but a glorious Catholic both/and.
You can't know the inner workings of any human being- what goes on in their mind and soul...there is no way from the outside to lay any claims on anyone's motivations.
The GReat Commandments are two fold (and not really seperable) Love the Lord Your God, and and love your neighbor.
It isn't an either/or--but a glorious Catholic both/and.
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Cosmic Charlie
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
Maybe its a Natural Law thing.
In that its part of some universal written-on-our-conscience written on our morality deal.
Look at the 10 commandments: 3 telling us how to deal with God (2 really being as keeping to Sabbath holy can be seen as helping us keep our life in balance) and 7 telling us how to deal with each other.
Look at the Sermon on the Mount: Only the greatest oratory in the history of the spoken word. several paragraphs on how treat each other and maintain peace.
Look at general pre-monotheistic morality: Note the general codification in law of what would become Judao-christian ethics
.
Perhaps people are more attentive to each other than God because thats the way God wants it.
After all God being God we can't really do anything that hurts Him, but we can hurt each other and since we are ALL God's children I tend to doubt that he wants to see any of us hurt, especially by each other.
Maybe if we focused on our neighbor more we'd all be a lot more Godly and a lot less obnoxiously holier than thou.
Its a thought.
(geo, shannon: See ? You change the perspective, back the argument and twist the view and you win every time. Its a blind spot thing)
In that its part of some universal written-on-our-conscience written on our morality deal.
Look at the 10 commandments: 3 telling us how to deal with God (2 really being as keeping to Sabbath holy can be seen as helping us keep our life in balance) and 7 telling us how to deal with each other.
Look at the Sermon on the Mount: Only the greatest oratory in the history of the spoken word. several paragraphs on how treat each other and maintain peace.
Look at general pre-monotheistic morality: Note the general codification in law of what would become Judao-christian ethics
.
Perhaps people are more attentive to each other than God because thats the way God wants it.
After all God being God we can't really do anything that hurts Him, but we can hurt each other and since we are ALL God's children I tend to doubt that he wants to see any of us hurt, especially by each other.
Maybe if we focused on our neighbor more we'd all be a lot more Godly and a lot less obnoxiously holier than thou.
Its a thought.
(geo, shannon: See ? You change the perspective, back the argument and twist the view and you win every time. Its a blind spot thing)
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What in the OP had to do with anything decried above?
Where was the character of anyone being assumed, let alone being assumed the worst of?
Who evidence by the OP thinks they are so much holier than everyone else?
It seems to me that this response makes huge assumptions about tthe OP and jumps to unfounded conclusions. This appears to have come out of left field rather than really having anything to do with the OP at all.
What claim was made to know the inner workings of any human being?
Really, a new member asking a very general question that has nothing to do with anyone in particular, or any group in particular, I believe deserves much more charitable consideration and thoughtful response.Catholicism is not a both/and when it comes to pleasing men vs pleasing God.
Why do we have martyrs? Because they chose pleasing God over pleasing men (and women).
Pleasing man and pleasing God does not fulfill the 2 Great Laws. Loving man and God does.
Loving man does not equate into pleasing them, for someone could be very unpleased by what is done in love for them.
It is a pretty serious error to confuse "pleasing" with "loving", especially in the context of the OP, wthich is OBVIOUS, which is referring to being in the situation of making a chioce as to whom we will please. When we have to make a choice, that means we cannot please both.
When we have to make such a choice it is always wrong to seek to please men rather than God.
In fact, the scriptures through the Church speak contrary to trying to please men when it comes to a choice between pleasing God or pleasing men. One cannot serve two masters.
1Th 2:4But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
Gal 1:10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Luk 6:26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
May I make the suggestion that it would be much more charitable to step back rather than jump to such conclusions as these to a very general observation about mankind in general, especially when it involves a new member.
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I think we all struggle with this sometimes. We're fallen and our faith is weak--the concupiscience of our flesh (or the desire for the temporal) sometimes overcomes our spirit (or the desire for the eternal).
It is often the most difficult to love someone--that is to seek their greatest good--when doing so may cause them to like you less. Many parents must do this often with their children. Martyrs, missionaries, and anyone who has sought to reform a society with evil customs and mores are also great examples of this. Jesus Christ crucified is of course the supreme example of this love.
It is often the most difficult to love someone--that is to seek their greatest good--when doing so may cause them to like you less. Many parents must do this often with their children. Martyrs, missionaries, and anyone who has sought to reform a society with evil customs and mores are also great examples of this. Jesus Christ crucified is of course the supreme example of this love.
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besides God is more forgiving
That's what I was going to say.
And Shannon, I'm loving the "glorious Catholic both/and!"
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Great post CC.
To add my 2 cents worth, it is a lot easier to pay attention to people than God because you can see, hear and know the person. It is harder to do the same with God.
A person lives next door, maybe is our boss or is that cute girl or handsome man or can influence our lives by blah, blah, blah... I don't think that we (generally) see God in the same light. Course we have our pride to contend with also. Never ending battle.
"19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."
1 John 4: 19-21
-Peace-
To add my 2 cents worth, it is a lot easier to pay attention to people than God because you can see, hear and know the person. It is harder to do the same with God.
A person lives next door, maybe is our boss or is that cute girl or handsome man or can influence our lives by blah, blah, blah... I don't think that we (generally) see God in the same light. Course we have our pride to contend with also. Never ending battle.
"19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."
1 John 4: 19-21
-Peace-
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I think we all struggle with this sometimes. We're fallen and our faith is weak--the concupiscience of our flesh (or the desire for the temporal) sometimes overcomes our spirit (or the desire for the eternal).
It is often the most difficult to love someone--that is to seek their greatest good--when doing so may cause them to like you less. Many parents must do this often with their children. Martyrs, missionaries, and anyone who has sought to reform a society with evil customs and mores are also great examples of this. Jesus Christ crucified is of course the supreme example of this love.
Amen, we do all struggle with this. And when we are concerned wiwth what people think about us, we are more apt to put pleasing them ahead of pleasing God.
Catholicism calls us to detachment from the world, which includes seeking the approval of others and makes seeking the approval of GOd most important no matter what the cost.
I know that when I read the OP, I paused and examined my own life, realizng how easy it is to fall into pleasing man rather than God.
And you are right, it is difficult to love someone when it means by doing so one is pleasing God rather than them.
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I think it is a grave error to make any type of oh-woe-is-most-of the-drivel-of-the-world statement. How does that benefit anyone? How is it any good for us (except as it feeds our pride) to talk about how messed up "people" are??? To speak disparagingly about "most people" is an offense to God's creation...You can't judge mens' hearts, and you don't know their feelings--unless they are specifically communicated to you.What in the OP had to do with anything decried above?
Where was the character of anyone being assumed, let alone being assumed the worst of?
Who evidence by the OP thinks they are so much holier than everyone else?
It seems to me that this response makes huge assumptions and jumps to unfounded conclusions. This appears to have come out of left field and have nothing to do with the Op at all.
It seems to me to be quite an overreaction and quite uncalled for given the very general nature of the OP which had nothing to do with Catholicism in particular.
Is this the way new members should expect their posts to be responded to?
What claim was made to know the inner workings of any human being?
Catholicism is not a both/and when it comes to pleasing men vs pleasing God.
Why do we have martyrs? Because they chose pleasing God over pleasing men (and women).
Pleasing man and pleasing God does not fulfill the 2 Great Laws. Loving man and God does.
Loving man does not equate into pleasing them, for someone could be very unpleased by what is done in love for them.
It is a pretty serious error to confuse "pleasing" with "loving", especially in the context of the OP, wthich is OBVIOUS, which is referring to being in the situation of making a chioce as to whom we will please. When we have to make a choice, that means we cannot please both.
When we have to make such a choice it is always wrong to seek to please men rather than God.
In fact, the scriptures through the Church speak contrary to trying to please men when it comes to a choice between pleasing God or pleasing men. One cannot serve two masters.
1Th 2:4But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
Gal 1:10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Luk 6:26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.May I make the suggestion that it would be much more charitable to step back rather than jump to such conclusions as these to a very general observation about mankind in general, especially when it involves a new member.
You don't do both/and's do you TLF? It's a shame because that's what most of Catholicism is about.
Wouldn't you be the first to argue that to allow someone to post something contrary tot the Gospel is one of the most uncharitable things which could be done??? Bashing humankind just for the sake of something to talk about--commiserating on how suck everyone else is...well sorry but I think that's just no good--especially because other people are often so ready to jump on the "most" people are losers bandwagon--and that seems in direct opposition to charity.
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There'll be (hopefully) lot's of purgatory time for this gal...that's fo' sure. (I think it's why God won't let us move--where we are now we have to drive past two cemeteries whenever we go anywhere- and pray for the souls of the deceased evrytime we drive past---I think He knows that I need as much prayer for souls in purgatory banked up as possible)
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Drats! Shannon, you have forced my hand. Yes, I am holier than anyone on the whole of CF. But by saying so, I have now fallen and will have to work hard at regaining my place. j/k with you.
You are one special lady and poster so I hope you don't get mad at me or sumting.I wish I were a holy person. I, in fact, am so far down the line, I can't even begin to tell where the line in front of me starts at. I accuse myself in this thread as I so much pay attention to others rather than God. I believe we all do. Some mighty fine posts here in this thread.
I must take my dog out for her daily. Might do me some good also. Take care lady.
-Peace-
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LOL! Tigg Enjoy your walk. Personal accusation of sins--that's good Accusing the rest of creation with sin--that's bad. Measure with strict measure for ourselves; measure with broad measure for everyone else.
How much better would the OP have been if it read something like:
"
Enjoy your walk. Personal accusation of sins--that's good Accusing the rest of creation with sin--that's bad. Measure with strict measure for ourselves; measure with broad measure for everyone else.How much better would the OP have been if it read something like:
"
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Cosmic Charlie
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
Be not afraid.
Lets do a census:
2 beatles
Jerry Garica
Jimi Hendrix
The entire Rat Pack
Most of the great Delta Blues men
Hank Williams, Johnny Cash and Tex Ritter
and, if theres any mercy in this universe:
Billie Holiday
The night club action in Purgatory is going the be UNREAL.
Club Your Way to Eternity.
That's what I think it says on the Gates of Purgatory, baby.
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I am quite confused by your response Shannon.
Where in the world did the OP make any such statement?
The OP asked a question. A very, GENERAL question about men in GENERAL.
The OP didn't even make it about Christians in general, but about MANKIND in general.
Are you suggesting that mankind, in general, does not seek to please man rather than God?
Is not the call of the gospel to move men away from pleasing man to pleasing God?
If the gospel itself makes such a call, then what is the problem with being reminded of the gospel's call?
The OP benefits those who, with a sensitive heart towards God, thoughtfully and prayerfully consider and refelct on the Gospel's call to turn our eyes towards God and seek to please Him above all others, and then to examine their lives accordingly.
How is this not a good thing?
First, who talked about how messed up people are?
Second, how is it not good to be reminded of the gospel's call to put God first and not to be more concerned about offending people than one is of offending God?
How does it feed pride to be reminded that God must come first, and if we have a choice of offendning man or offending God we must never be afraid of offending man more than we are of offending God?
I seen nothing in the OP justifying your concerns or criticisms.
Where did the OP speak disparagingly about most people?
Speaking the truth of the gospel is disparaging of God's creation exactly how Shannon?
It would seem if your criticism is true, then it would also mean one would need to accuse the Gospel itself of speaking disparagingly of God's creation, and so one would need to accuse God Himself of speaking diparagingly of His own creation.
Really, this has nothing to do with the OP. It is Catholic teaching that most people choose to please men rather than God, for even Jesus said hard and difficult and narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it. In contrast to this He said wide and easy is the patht to hell:
Mat 7:13¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
How does it make sense to criticize or condemn the upholding of what the scriptures and Church Herself say about most people?Mat 7:14Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
It doesn't. This is OBOB after all and we are to uphold Catholic teaching, not some feel good "I'm OK, you're OK" vain philosophy of men.
What was contrary to the gospel in the OP?
Please share what the gospel states that the OP is contrary to . . . . I have already shared the scriptures that support the OP. So now please show us how the gospel does not say that most people are more afraid of offending others than God.
Obviously if most people were afraid of offending God they would be Catholic.
Yet, the vast majority of humanity in the world today are not even christian.
I fail to see how your accusation can be suported from the gospel.
See, I am confused for the OP is perfectly lined up with the Gospel. For clarification sake I must ask, are you advocating that we do not speak the truth of the gospel here, that most people are more afraid of offending man than offending God?
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Let me ask a question to the OP? Any chance you could turn off your disable finds all posts?
Perhpas I am in error-- and as I am wont to do made an unreasonable assumption about what you were trying to say in your OP. The posts I read of yours yesterday-primarily focused on other people and their lack of holiness, as opposed to your own rockin' spiritual life.
If you turn off the disable find all posts, then it would be abundantly cleat what a buffoon I am for being so rash--as likely that most of your posts are not about how wrong everyone else is living.
Perhpas I am in error-- and as I am wont to do made an unreasonable assumption about what you were trying to say in your OP. The posts I read of yours yesterday-primarily focused on other people and their lack of holiness, as opposed to your own rockin' spiritual life.
If you turn off the disable find all posts, then it would be abundantly cleat what a buffoon I am for being so rash--as likely that most of your posts are not about how wrong everyone else is living.
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