Spiritual Warfare, or God just doesn't like Christians?

Reminds me of Job.

I try not to think about it much. It is too distressing. And too painful. Some days, I'd just like a break, but all sources tell me that, as a Christian, I'm in for one hell of a ride.

Through those times of desperation and brokenness, we are meant to find God. But how precisely we are supposed to be thankful and not angry with Him for being so hard on us, I do not know. Maybe the attitude changes with time. I marvel at those Christians who can be peaceful, serene, and humble during periods of great trial. I cannot count myself among them, and I don't know how they do it.

When people talk about spiritual warfare...I don't think they mean us vs. God.

God is not the cause of our suffering. He allows it sometimes, as hard as that is to accept, but He is not 'punishing' us. He doesn't make bad things happen. Bad things are going to happen to everyone...whatever they believe...being a Christian has nothing to do with the degree to which one suffers.

God knows when we are suffering. And of course He likes us. He loves us.

Subscribing

I'm like your buddy on this one. But I do see where it can be difficult to grasp or accept it all.

I know God has a plan...and I accept suffering when it comes. Sometimes not well. Lately has, honestly, been a bit rough. But I find that I have been able deal with things pretty well. My wife got a bit frustrated because she felt I was allowing myself to be kicked in the face over some things.

There is a fine line between abiding suffering in faith and learning from it and being passively fatalistic and having it have a more negative impact even when you think you are accepting it. I usually do a good job staying on the accepting but proactive in doing what I can do to make things better side when dealing with suffering.

But I really see where you can have a problem reconciling all good...all powerful with the feeling of either distance from God while we suffer or even a proactive cruelty.

And how, to a parent, that just fails to make a connection with truth.

Personally I think I can see it...I tie it into the nature of the world and trust in a plan I can not see. Believing there is good that I don't see and the growth towards something better in suffering. That and trying to see all the good that there is and how it has come through a storm to get there.

But I see where you are coming from and the real value of the questions you raise.

I do think there is a point to suffering...I think that in the difficulty to reconcile it we hit that gap between God and us that although bridged is sometimes beyond us in a very real way.

I was reading something on St. Gregory of Nyssa and how God makes Himself knowable yet still remains unknowable and the unknowability is deepest for the one who see it.

If that makes any sense.

He isn't distant. How far is it from me to the Cross? I just think about the suffering He endured willingly and with great love for all our sakes, that the breach created by sin might be healed, and I know help will come. It always has.

ZooMom said:

He isn't distant. How far is it from me to the Cross? I just think about the suffering He endured willingly and with great love for all our sakes, that the breach created by sin might be healed, and I know help will come. It always has.

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It's a hard thing for many...that suffering in union with the cross is a dignity. It took me a long time to really get that. But I think I do...not through any merit on my own part.

Davidnic said:

It's a hard thing for many...that suffering in union with the cross is a dignity. It took me a long time to really get that. But I think I do...not through any merit on my own part.

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No, I wasn't really meaning redemptive suffering. Or maybe I was in a way. I just mean that when things get really hard, I have to face the Cross. I have to move towards it. Because while I was caught up in my own grief and struggles, I wasn't looking at it.

I guess I'm just trying to say that it's a matter of perspective. And I think Americans, particularly, tend to lose that perspective more often because we are so accustomed to luxury. Suffering means something different to us.

YOu know I was thinking about this just now as I had to force my two oldest daughters to clean the kitchen. They had begged me to bake, and after initially saying no, I rescinded when they had promised to clean up. The mess was huge.....but I sat and watched them clean up and made them do it themselves--and it killed me. I wanted so bad to tell them to run along and play, I wanted to go over and help (but this was time number three after hemming and hawing about cleaning up)...but I knew that we would have to do this all over again the next time that they wanted to bake, if they didn't have to clean it up this time. It sucks as a parent to have to allow your kids to live through consequneces....but to remove those consequences, inhibits them from growing in so many way- sympathy (like for what mommy does when she cleans the kitchen), perseverence, doing something which is no fun, but is responsible....

I am a suck mom and while I love my kids hugely, I don't really like being amom all that much--- how much more I imagine God to cringewhen we are going through something, but being perfect parent and omniscent and all- He knows the end result and the empathy and love which will (hopefully) grow in us after our struggles. I kind of think of suffering as a tenderizer for the heart.

I've been wondering about a similar thing recently. Ever since I've been interested in converting to Catholicism I feel like I'm becoming much worse of a person and think and do things that I would not have imagined myself doing otherwise. (don't get scared lol) - also I'm not attributing this to Catholicism, I'm just saying that this is happening in spite of it.

I'm not sure if I want to make this a separate thread of mine (I'll just keep it here right now but might change my mind later) but somehow I feel obsessed with sinning. Not obsessed against sinning, but obsessed about wanting to sin. This was not such an issue a few months ago. I used to hate certain sins now I feel like I "love" them (though not all), and this does not make any sense anymore. I feel a radical change in my myself ever since I got more firmly interested in being Catholic and it kind of worries me (don't think I'm blaming Catholicism lol).

ZooMom said:

No, I wasn't really meaning redemptive suffering. Or maybe I was in a way. I just mean that when things get really hard, I have to face the Cross. I have to move towards it. Because while I was caught up in my own grief and struggles, I wasn't looking at it.

I guess I'm just trying to say that it's a matter of perspective. And I think Americans, particularly, tend to lose that perspective more often because we are so accustomed to luxury. Suffering means something different to us.

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I kind of see it as tied all together.

I see the point about luxury. Suffering can be very much a matter of perspective at times.

Not that emotional or psychological suffering can't be just as piercing and debilitating as physical pain or privation...


It's a hard question all the way around, because there's not a pat answer. All the factors and circumstances of a person's experience combine to bring them to whatever point they are at in their life. You can't give someone faith...only love. Everyone has to make their own decision for faith.

Can you believe that my cybersitter wouldn't let me type

of
one's
experience

... in a straight line. Take off the 'o' and the 'perience' and you'll see why. Stupid machine.

Any time we take a step toward Christ and say yes to the right path or the attempt of holiness, satan will wage war, a real battle to the bitter end. He will try and cause you to trip up in the most subtle ways. But sometimes he downright causes pain and destruction that is obvious. His hopes are that we turn away from God and curse him, because of our sins or pain and sufferings.

But every time we pray in silence and keep the thought of Jesus in our mind and on our lips. He is defeated. Remember he always can see what you do and hear the words you speak, so he will jump on them. But he cant read your mind.

God allows us to go through the rough times to sandpaper us, if we even reach out to him a little in times of struggle, he will take us the distance. Every time we have one success, the next is a little easier. And if you keep going in that way, before you know it your complete trust is in God that in any situation, he will bring good out of it. You may realize then that both good and bad things that happen to you have a purpose for the kingdom of heaven. When you reach that point, even though the rough times or tragedies still continue, you are content, and still have joy, knowing your Father is with you and he is the director of your life.

He never promised us our walk on earth was going to be an easy one when following him. Our treasures are in heaven, where our real home is.

I heard it several times said, by different priests on EWTN as well as some of the quites from saints, that the greater the suffering here, the more you can offer up for other souls, and the greater your treasures are in heaven. But I don't have those quotes handy right now. Peace.

ShannonMcCatholic said:

I kind of think of suffering as a tenderizer for the heart.

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Pounding on the soul so that holes might be created into which garlic cloves are stuffed. We either come out smelly or seasoned. Perhaps the two aren't mutually exclusive.

... only kinda serious.

Hey~!

I haven't been here in a while but lo and behold Jason has a great topic at the top of the board!

So here's my take. Before one can really appreciate suffering, one needs to understand it. Suffering is of God because suffering is a by-product of love and God is love. In our sinful state, suffering is evident because we desire that which is of the earth and resent/hurt when it is not available to us.

Consider different types of suffering and you will likely find a deprivation at the root cause.

I broke my leg....I suffer....I am deprived of comfort and health.

My father died....I suffer....I am deprived of the love and support of my father.

The thing we are deprived of is the thing we love. I love comfort, health, love from my father, etc. I'm deprived of the thing I long so I suffer. How much more did Christ suffer as He who did not have to save us, suffered....was deprived of our love, respect, honor...his body was deprived of it's health, comfort and wholeness.

Once we can realize that suffering is a by-product of love, we can take a serious look at what we love. We are called to love God above all things. For the great saints, illness, pain, poverty and isolation was not difficult because they loved God more than themselves and their own desires and comforts. When we are fully sanctified, perfected for heaven whether here on earth or in purgatory, we will not love anything of this earth but only God.

As for why this seeming coincidence regarding devotion to Christ and suffering.....read all of 1Peter but at minimum spend some time with this: 1Peter 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

As much as I want to rail against the injustice of my sufferings, I can't help but remember that Christ suffered and me being so far beneath Him, should not even begin to think that I should live on this earth in a better state than He fared during His time here.

My thoughts for what it's worth.....


So says a sinner.....M



**** As a side note, Michie the irony of your post was priceless. A Youtube video of battle/satan/warfare with a small footnote in your post that says: "Keeping on the sunny side of life. "