This case should be interesting to follow.

NeTrips

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Such a dilemma:

SAN FRANCISCO — The National Rifle Association sued the city of San Francisco on Friday to overturn its handgun ban in public housing, a day after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a handgun ban in the nation's capital.

The legal action follows a similar lawsuit against the city of Chicago over its handgun ban, filed within hours of Thursday's high court ruling.
In San Francisco, the NRA was joined by the Washington state-based Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and a gun owner who lives in the city's Valencia Gardens housing project as plaintiffs.

The gun owner, who is gay, says he keeps the weapon to defend himself from "sexual orientation hate crimes." He was not identified in the complaint because he said he fears retaliation.

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom said the city will "vigorously fight the NRA" and defended the city's ban as good for public safety.

"Is there anyone out there who really believes that we need more guns in public housing?" Newsom said. "I can't for the life of me sit back and roll over on this. We will absolutely defend the rights of the housing authority."
From one side of their mouths they're telling us that gay bashing is so prevalent in this country that we need a whole new realm of federal hate crime legislation to deal with this violent crime wave.

Then, without even pausing to take a breath, they tell us out of the other side of their mouths that anyone expressing the desire to protect himself or herself from violent, gay-bashing thugs is just being paranoid and that no such threat exists.

Then, because these citizens do not really live in their own homes, they live in government owned buildings, they do not have rights.... I wonder when the wire tapping is going to begin? Probably right after the warrantless searches for contraband grills and kiddie pools....
 

MachZer0

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Such a dilemma:


From one side of their mouths they're telling us that gay bashing is so prevalent in this country that we need a whole new realm of federal hate crime legislation to deal with this violent crime wave.

Then, without even pausing to take a breath, they tell us out of the other side of their mouths that anyone expressing the desire to protect himself or herself from violent, gay-bashing thugs is just being paranoid and that no such threat exists.

Then, because these citizens do not really live in their own homes, they live in government owned buildings, they do not have rights.... I wonder when the wire tapping is going to begin? Probably right after the warrantless searches for contraband grills and kiddie pools....
Another point to note here is that they have invented a right for homosexuals to marry, yet denied a right to bear arms which is clearly expressed in the Constitution. When the Supreme Court made its ruling, San Francisco should have immediately announced the lifting of its ban
 
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Washington

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yet denied a right to bear arms which is clearly expressed in the Constitution.
Yeah, the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," was just a superfluous afterthought they forgot to delete before sending the amendment to press.

Seems that gun nuts are all the same no matter where a person goes.
 
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chaz345

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Yeah, the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," was just a superfluous afterthought they forgot to delete before sending the amendment to press.

Seems that gun nuts are all the same no matter where a person goes.

Apparently you missed the part where the SCOTUS just ruled that owning a gun is in fact an individual right that has nothing at all to do with being in a militia. We could argue all day exactly what that passage means but it would be irrelevant since the court, which is the only opinion that matters, has already said in terms of owning a gun or not today, it is irrelevant.
 
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chaz345

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Newsom said. "I can't for the life of me sit back and roll over on this. We will absolutely defend the rights of the housing authority."

Very telling quote. He, and many other liberals seem to consistantly forget that the government has no rights except those specifically given to it in the Constitution or in laws voted on and passed by the people.
 
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MachZer0

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Yeah, the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," was just a superfluous afterthought they forgot to delete before sending the amendment to press.

Seems that gun nuts are all the same no matter where a person goes.
Half truths can be troubling. Note the second half of the amendment which states:

the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
 
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Washington

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Apparently you missed the part where the SCOTUS just ruled that owning a gun is in fact an individual right that has nothing at all to do with being in a militia.
Not at all, I was merely replying to MachZer0 who claimed that the right to bear arms is "clearly expressed in the Constitution." Aside from the Court's ruling, I disagree that it's clearly expressed.

But let me ask you this. AND THIS IS FOR YOU TOO, MACHZERO, If, as you say, the right to bear arms is an "individual right that has nothing at all to do with being in a militia." why is the militia even mention in the law? As you may or may not know, laws, even back then, aren't simply thrown together over a cup of tea. Their wording is carefully selected, and every phrase is in there for an express purpose. So in as much as the amendment concerns the rights of individuals, just what is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," doing there? Common grammatical construction dictates that such an antecedent phrase modifies whatever follows. So, what do you think the phrase is trying to tell us?
 
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MachZer0

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Not at all, I was merely replying to MachZer0 who claimed that the right to bear arms is "clearly expressed in the Constitution." Aside from the Court's ruling, I disagree that it's clearly expressed.

But let me ask you this. AND THIS IS FOR YOU TOO, MACHZERO, If, as you say, the right to bear arms is an "individual right that has nothing at all to do with being in a militia." why is the militia even mention in the law? As you may or may not know, laws, even back then, aren't simply thrown together over a cup of tea. Their wording is carefully selected, and every phrase is in there for an express purpose. So in as much as the amendment concerns the rights of individuals, just what is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," doing there? Common grammatical construction dictates that such an antecedent phrase modifies whatever follows. So, what do you think the phrase is trying to tell us?
We never know when a militia may need to be called into service. Thus, keeping and bearing arms will make that far more feasible
 
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chaz345

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But let me ask you this. AND THIS IS FOR YOU TOO, MACHZERO, If, as you say, the right to bear arms is an "individual right that has nothing at all to do with being in a militia." why is the militia even mention in the law? As you may or may not know, laws, even back then, aren't simply thrown together over a cup of tea. Their wording is carefully selected, and every phrase is in there for an express purpose. So in as much as the amendment concerns the rights of individuals, just what is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," doing there? Common grammatical construction dictates that such an antecedent phrase modifies whatever follows. So, what do you think the phrase is trying to tell us?

There is no if about it, SCOTUS has already said that it is in fact an individual right.

But as for what the phrase means here goes. First we need to consider the fact that the entire purpose of the Bill of Rights is to lay out INDIVIDUAL rights and clarify and limit government powers. Having said that, and remembering that the founders were very much against the idea of a standing military, they mention that a militia is necessary as their reason for saying that everyone should be free to own a gun. After all, someone who had never handled a gun before would require a lot more time and expensive ammunition to train that one who had been exercising their right to own one. Having a citizenry that is experienced in the use of guns makes assembling a useful fighting force from among the population, MUCH faster and easier.
 
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Washington

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We never know when a militia may need to be called into service. Thus, keeping and bearing arms will make that far more feasible
So I assume that if you are a fire arms owner you belong to a "well regulated militia." If so, in what manner is your militia well regulated? After all, well regulated militias aren't created over night (if you've been in the armed forces you'll know exactly what I'm talking about). So in order to have well regulated militias they would have to be current, on-going, organizations. Not something assembled when the need demands. Got a lot of well regulated militias in your neck of the woods? And of course, whatever form they take, I'm certain they would not be welcoming granny and her squirrel gun.

Then there's a little interesting piece of info on militias in the USA.
Proponents [of militias] describe a key element in the concept of "militia" was that to be "genuine" it not be a "select militia", composed of an unrepresentative subset of the population. This was an argument presented in the ratification debates.
The first legislation on the subject was The Militia Act of 1792 which provided, in part:
That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, ... every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock....
Note the age limit and requirements to be enrolled in a militia.

Moreover.
Following the 2008 decision of the Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller, the de jure defintion of "militia" as used in United States jurisprudence broadened once again. The court's opinion made explicit, in it's obiter dicta, that the term "militia", as used in colonial times, and still today in this originalist decision, included both the Federally-organized militia and the citizen-organized militias of the several States. "... the 'militia' in colonial America consisted of a subset of 'the people'—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range" ... Although the militia consists of all ablebodied men, the federally organized militia may consist of a subset of them"(23). [48
source
All of which excludes thousands upon thousands of gun owners. In other words, if you don't qualify for the militia, the phrase "A well regulated militia being necessary . . ." does not afford you the right to own a fire arm---the recent ruling of the court not withstanding.


In any case, am I now to assume that you agree that the reason for the phrase ""A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," was to indicate who fell under the protection of the amendment: only those who are members of such a militia? If not, then we're back to square one as to the reason for the phrase's existence.
 
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Jester4kicks

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Nope, but one can be pulled together in short order :thumbsup:

Darn tootin! :thumbsup: If a tornado were to destroy the entire area around me (we're talkin a Katrina-level-event here), I know exactly who in my community would be patrolling the neighborhood with me, locked and loaded, to ensure the looters didn't clean up.

Anyway, I've always thought the "militia" part of the Second Amendment was really just designed to allow the framers of the Constitution to put the right to bear arms in there without sounding like they were pushing everyone to have a firearm. Maybe it's just me, but whenever I read the Constitution, I like to keep in mind what the founding fathers were trying to do when they were establishing themselves.
 
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chaz345

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In any case, am I now to assume that you agree that the reason for the phrase ""A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," was to indicate who fell under the protection of the amendment: only those who are members of such a militia?

If the right to bear arms was to be limited to milita members, then why not use the phrase "the right of militia members" instead of "the right of the people"?
 
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MachZer0

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If the right to bear arms was to be limited to milita members, then why not use the phrase "the right of militia members" instead of "the right of the people"?
Exactly. It's quite clear who has the right to bear arms. Here's a tip for those opposed to the right to bear arms: Don't bear them
 
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