Questions for Messianic Jews

Andrew

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The Messianic Jews my church knows and supports in Israel does not follow the laws anymore or worship on Sat etc. I'm also saying this cos they are also receiving and teaching the pure grace message of the gospel that my church is teaching -- ie all grace -- no mixtures.

Cast out the bondwoman.
 
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Michie

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What are the Messianic Jewish Believers take on the rapture?

This seems to be a pretty hot issue.

We got pre-post-pan- trib people.

Some people say Jesus will return twice, some say just once to gather His people.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Thank's! :)
Michie
 
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Michie:

What are the Messianic Jewish Believers take on the rapture?

This seems to be a pretty hot issue.

We got pre-post-pan- trib people.

Some people say Jesus will return twice, some say just once to gather His people.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this

Ooooooh! Now you've touched on a very intriguing subject! In fact, it was my interest in bible prophecy that led to my discovery of Messianic Judaism. With all of the world events that have happened in the last few years, I could see that God was at work, and I began to search the internet for prophecy material, and kept finding Messianic sites. Their interpretations fascinated me, and I could see that their knowledge of the Torah gave them an understanding that we lack. For instance, so much of the imagery described in the Book of Revelation requires an understanding of Torah so that one can see the correlations.

There are some slight variations in interpretations between various Messianic teacjers, but they all seem to agree on a Post-Trib or Pre-Wrath interpretation. I'm not aware of any Messianic teachers who accept the Pre-Trib viewpoint.

Give me some time collect my thoughts, and I'll start a new thread on the subject.


Shimon
 
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WildHeart75

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I have been studying Messianic Judaism. The jewish goes back to the original Hewbrew and therefor is the most accurate teachings. I think what alot of Christians fail to remember is that our Savior Yahshua was Jewish and He upheld the Feasts and the Laws of the Torah. One thing I would like to point out to Christians is that Yahshua did not say to do away with the feasts and the Torah, The only thing He changed by coming here and dying on a cross is the sacrificing animals. He was the sacrificial lamb. I would also like to point out that catholics are the main (or the only christian based religion that I know of) that is against the death penalty. Yahshua taught us to uphold the Torah and the Ten Commandments is part of the Torah. I know alot of Christians who teach the ten commandments and in the same breath will support the death penalty, that is not only a hypocrite, but mocking Yahshua, who was given the death penalty and died on a cross for our salvation. I do not think He would appreciate the support for such a hideous act, especially after Him putting Himself through it because of His love for us. We are suppose to love each other as we love ourselves. I would also like to point out that Christians today are celebrating perversed verisons of the Holy Days, like Halloween, Easter and Christmas. Pagans sacrificed babies and dipped eggs in the babies blood and that was suppose to make them fertile the next year, henceforth the coloring and hunting of easter eggs, the christmas tree is a representation of Ba'als *****. On the statue his scrotum was gold and silver, sorry for the lewdness here but henceofrth the gold and silver balls on the christmas tree. I do not think if most christians really realized this that they would be celebrating those things. I apologize if I have offended anyone by the lewdness of the above statements, but that is exactly what they are, and what christians are celebrating. I am not judging, I was born and raised in a household that celebrated those things, it wasn't until I got older and started researching that I found out all those years what exactly we were doing. Anyway, that is just my 2 cents worth.

- Rachael
 
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I just picked up this thread and noticed back on page one that one of the differences between Miessianic Jews and Christianity was the observance of Christmas and Easter.

I would like to state that not all "Christians" observe these two religious festivals. If we are to be Christ's disciples and follow His word, it would appear that many are doing what is right in their own eyes, for nowhere do I find such command that we are to observe any Christianized pagan festivals such as these.

Can anyone point out a scripture where we are to observe the Messiah's birthday? Can you show me the scripture that points out the day when He was born?

And as for easter, where in the scriptures do we find such a feast that we are to observe?

 

Noel
 
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Higher Truth

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TRUE Messianic Judaism is a beautiful faith. The problem that I see now occuring is that the non-Jewish believers who have found Messianic Judaism have brought their 'baggage' of teaching that is not part of the doctrine with them. Things like denying the tri-une nature of God. Messianic Jews call the Messiah Yeshua, because that is the correct translation of His name from Hebrew to English.Due to this 'false' teaching by others, there are now many variations of His name. There are many out there claming to be Messianic Jews, but are not. They are perverting the doctrine, and leading new believers astray.Once again, read the fine print.

Rev 2:9 I know your works, and the affliction, and the poverty; but you are rich. And I know the evil speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you.
 
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Higher Truth

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Masquerading in many cases as Messianic Jews, the Sacred Name [only] groups are growing in numbers. They seem to be gaining momentum and are appearing in many areas these days.

These groups vary when it comes to their beliefs and doctrines but many do have a similiar theme that they for the most part adhere to. They try to pass themselves off as Messianic Jews but you can see through them quite easily if you know what to look for.

Here are some of their basic points:

* Yeshua/Jesus was the Messiah but he wasn't God, just a man, or an "Agent" of God, but now his work is finished.Some also totally deny the tri-une nature of God.

* Intellectually accepting Yeshua/Jesus is enough. You are saved by the keeping of the laws, grace has nothing to do with it.

* Many adhere to a sacred name philosophy. Anytime you see someone claim a "This is the only name you are to call Yeshua/Jesus or God" philosophy, you can pretty much consider them as SNO right there.[they all have the one 'correct' name that they use]

* Many have done their own translation of the bible as no one has EVER in the history of mankind done it correctly before. Some believe that the Greek New Testamant has been corrupted, and should not be trusted.

* Some believe that their leader or leaders represent one or both of the two witnesses of revelation.
 
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Higher Truth, I have met a man in our community who appears to subscibe to such as these "holy name" groups. I have recognized in him the same characteristics that you have mentioned. He appears quite radical for after talking with him for awile, he got extremely upset for me using the name Jesus (too often I guess) and started shouting, its "Yeshua, Yeshua", while thrusting his fists up in the air. I thought he was going to hit me. He did calm down although and I though it best to exit from his presence.

I have recognized as with all organized religion, they are either a form of the religion of Cain or that of Abel. There are really only two religions in the world.
 
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Charles YTK

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To MSMORALITY,

Rom 6:[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Please read the entire passage to place it in context. Paul is making the point that we do not serve the law in a practice of legalistic observance in order to earn our own salvation. We are deliver from the power of sin in our lives so that the just requirements of the law are manifest in the lives of the believers, so that we do what the law requires not outwardly, but naturally, because Messiah lives in us.

Look back to other passages to understand what is being said.

Romans 2: [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness. . .

Charles YTK
 
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MsMorality:

" We are no longer under the law but under Grace". Romans 6:14

It was not the Torah which was "nailed to the execution stake," but the *penalty* for our transgression of the Torah. Yeshua died for the forgiveness of our sins, He did not die so that we could turn around and transgress His Torah all over again.

"So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new- moon ceremonies or Sabbaths." Col 2:16

Paul was saying that some people believed that one biblical holy day was "holier" than another. For instance, some believed that Yom Kippur was a "holier" day than Passover, while others believed that Passover was 'holier" than Yom Kippur. Even today, there are some who believe that Christmas is "holier" than Easter, and others who believe that Easter is "holier" than Christmas.

He was certainly not telling us that it was okay to stop observing the holy days that God had commanded us to observe. On the contrary, he even told us to continue to observe Passover:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

And in Acts Chapter 20, we find Paul hurrying to Jerusalem, in order to be there in time to celebrate the Feast of Shavuot:

Acts 20:16: For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Lastly, at Paul's trial before Felix, he stated emphatically:

Acts 24:14: Acts 24:14: But this I do admit to you: I worship the God of our fathers in accordance with the Way (which they call a sect). I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.

If Paul was teaching that it is okay to disregard the Torah, then how is it that he could have made the quote above?

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth

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David Stern is the translator of the Comple Jewish Bible. He is a Mesianic Jew, and his Bible is very popular among Messianic Jewish believers, because it restores a Jewish entity to the Gospels. He also wrote a book called "The Jewish New Testament Commentary" In this book he attempts to explain the Hebrew Idioms behind the Greek writings, from a Jewish perspective. Here are some 'excerpts' from this book:

Rev 2:9 I know your works, and the affliction, and the poverty; but you are rich. And I know the evil speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you.

" Yochanan (John) writes about Gentiles who call themselves Jews but aren't - on the contrary, they are a synagogue of satan, the adversary, Perhaps they, like the gentile Judaizers of the book of Galatians, adopted a smattering of Jewish practices and tried to force them on Gentile believers. They may have subjected themselves to a legalistic perversion of the Torah. They apparently organized a pseudo Messianic synagogue. Their false doctrine probably led them to wrong and immoral behavior, since false doctrine usually does. They probably drew Gentile Christians away from the truth, and thereby threatened the Messianic community. Virtually all commentators ignore the obvious and straightforward interpretation that Yochanan (John) is talking here about Gentiles who pretend to be Jews."

"Should it nevertheless be thought improbable that Gentiles would call themselves Jews, Hebrews or Israelites, consider the following modern examples. The 'British Israelites' regard the British as the Ten Lost Tribes. The Mormons not only consider themselves to be the Ten Lost Tribes but regard themselves as Jews and everyone else (real Jews included) as Gentiles. A sect of mostly American-born blacks consider themselves the true Hebrews; several thousand of them are living in Israel. All of these are outside the pale of Christianity. In addition, scattered about are well-meaning Gentile Christians whose strong identification with and love for the Jewish people has made them believe,without a shred of evidence,that they are actually Jewish themselves.In fact, some years ago a congregation was expelled from the American Lutheran Church because, along with a general drift into weirdness, its pastor and dozens of its members claimed to have heard from God that they were really Jews; many even said they knew which tribe they belonged to."

"Without exception this phenomenon of Gentiles imagining and asserting they are Jewish when they are not leads to strange patterns of doctrine and practice. Such people are not accepted by Jews as Jewish; nor, as this verse shows, are they to be accepted by Christians as Christian. Isolated and self-defensive, they can easily become prideful, neither obeying the Torah nor showing brotherly love to Yeshua's (Jesus) real followers. It is easy to see why Yeshua (Jesus) does not regard them as harmlessly neutral but pegs them as the synagogue of the adversary."

(All above writings in "quotes" from the Jewish New Testament Commentary, by David Stern)
 
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Higher Truth:

Was it really necessary to post the same message in four separate threads?

I've made it clear that I was born and raised as a Gentile, and that I haven't "converted" to Judaism. In fact, here is the exact quote:

I was born a Gentile, was raised as a Gentile, and am still a Gentile.

I really don't like to refer to myself as a "Jew." I'm not a Jew, and have no wish to be misleading, or to offend real Jews. But when someone asks me what denomination I'm in, I don't know what else to say -- "Messianic Judaism" is the name that it goes by. I really don't consider it a "denomination" but a movement that attempts to rediscover the Hebrew roots of our faith. The scriptures were written by Jews, and therefore I believe it is imperative that we attempt to understand them from a Hebraic point of view.

Secondly, I believe you are misunderstanding what Yeshua is saying in that verse. Here are the words of Paul:

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

If Paul is truly an emissary of Yeshua, and if his epistles were truly Inspired, then Paul cannot be contradicting Yeshua. Paul is clearly telling us that ethnic status has absolutely no bearing on one's right-standing before HaShem. What Paul is saying is that within the Covenant Family, there is no such thing as "Jew" or "Greek."

What Yeshua is saying in the verse you quoted, is that there are some who claim to be members of the Covenant Family who aren't members at all.

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth

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Shimon,

I am not accusing you of claiming to be Jewish, as I have read you statement before. I posted on four threads, because some people do not read all of the threads. What I have seen lately, is people mixing Messianic Judiasm with other doctrines that are not approved by Messianic Rabbis.ot the governing bodies. There are many 'false' teachers out there on the internet that are trying to steer Messianic Judaism in a direction to meet their own personal needs, and the majority of them are not even Jewish. Just like in Christianity, people are gathering together teachers who 'tickle' their ears, but are not promoting the truth according to scripture. There is so much 'extra biblical' teaching out there these days, that is posing as 'Messianic ', that people need to be aware of this. People that have not been exposed to Judaism, especially Christians who are curious, do not need to be 'Judaized', which will make them resentful towards people of Jewish birth. The writing that I posted was by David Stern, a Jewish scholar, who has interpreted the NT scriptures from a Hebrew perspective.
 
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Higher Truth:

Okay, fair enough.

My congregation is led by an ordained Jewish rabbi, and is a member of the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues.

International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues:

http://iamcs.mjaa.org/

Messianic Jewish Alliance of America:

http://www.mjaa.org/

Below is a link to our website, which was rated in the Messianic Jewish Top 100 by the Messianic Bureau International.

Zion Messianic Congregation:

http://tzion.org/

Messianic Bureau International:

http://www.messianic.com/

Shimon
 
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Charles YTK

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Higher truth,

I do not understand why you are bringing a personal attack against Shimon. I do not believe he is the spokes person for his particular synagogue nor for the rabbi or the Messianic Jewish believers in general.

Now it may be that you do not agree with the doctrines that Messianics believe in. It can be said without contest that Christianity has its own doctrines which are not as closely connected to the biblical doctrine followed by Jews and Messianics. So there is not point in arguing these difference. I believe this area was set up as a place for people with an interest in the Messianic faith or those already practicing this form of faith to have meaningful exchanges. You you are opposed to our doctrine, or have no interst, then I see there are an overwhelming number of more forum area here that you can take part in. Your interjections here are quickly bringing this area into the realm of an alley fight.

Charles YTK
 
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Higher Truth:

Does you Rabbi approve of the teachings of Monte Judah and Michael Rood?

This are some points on which he agrees with them, and some points on which he disagrees. He neither encourages nor discourages anyone from listening to them. There are differences of opinion in *any* denomination or movement. For instance, not all Southern Baptists are in agreement with Jerry Falwell.

I know he disagrees with Michael Rood's calendar, and Michael Rood also acknowledges that it is a valid argument:

Still, there is a valid
argument that it was the purpose of a national representative of Israel (i.e. the Sanhedrin) to interview witnesses and declare the Rosh Chodesh for the Nation, so that we would all keep the Feasts on the same day -- and that since the last standing Sanhedrin established this calendar, and we have no such official body today, that the current Jewish calendar should be kept for the unity of the Nation. If you are of this persuasion, then you can stop reading -- for you know when your Holy Days will be from now until the year 7000. You have determined that, until a new Sanhedrin is convened, there is no need to look for Aviv barley in the spring or the New Moon each month.

I haven't really spoken to him at length over his views of Michael Rood's or Monte Judah's teachings, but I know that there are several in my congregation who have used them.

Personally, I find the materials from First Fruits of Zion to be among the best, and they have given seminars in our congregation in the past.

Shimon
 
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