AD66-70: The Day the Son of Man was revealed

jenlu · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by Knight
Christ said "It is Finnished." This means that the debt for our sin had been pain in full. Why would one not believe this? How does accepting the 70AD second coming enhance this?

I don't believe the second coming has yet come to pass yet I firmly believe that our sin-debt is paid in full.

 

It's less to do with a 70AD coming and more to do with what exactly was accomplished through his prophecies(and fullfilment of them)...Besides, he said he would come within a generation...the apostle's knew exactly what he said and conveyed it plainly in their letters to one another...His word is true and a future tribulation(with all that entails...including a coming) is not what the word says for us...it was future to the people at the time...

Tallyn · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by Knight
Was the OT less credible (less true) before Christ was born? I don't think so.

If you encompassed God's plan within the Old Testament only, you'd find it to be incomplete, hence, less true. Where would we be today if we only had the Old Testament?

Originally posted by Knight
I thought about including the resurrection in that statement but reconsidered. It was His blood that saved us. He arose to prove He was who He said He was and to verify that the sacrifice was sufficient. Also, by His resurrection we have hope in that we are worshipping a living God.

Okay, he did indeed appear to many disciples, but not only to prove He was Christ, but also to reveal the mysteries of His kingdom to them. To promise them the Holy Spirit so they may further His ministry until the time of His return.

Originally posted by Knight
The term "generation" here could also mean race. I don't have a definative answer for this but I will research it.

Well, I've had this interpretation thrown at me numerous times so I am more than ready to discuss. Although I think we should do so either in a private message, or in another thread.

Originally posted by Knight
I agree that it would sidetrack the issue but I am still confused as to why you had trouble understanding those issues without this 70AD doctrine. 

One instance would be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was promised to the apostles to guide them into all truth by allowing them to perform miracles and to "bind" Satan (demons).
Because Christ came in 70AD, we no longer need the HS (we are in the presence of Christ).
So when I hear of people speaking in tongues, or a modern day prophet, or miraculous healings by man; I give them no credibility.

Originally posted by Knight
When did I say that we would be judged by works? You're making assumptions. I said that our sin-debt has been paid.  

It's not what you said...its what the Bible says. Read Revelation 20. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.
This event happens before the New Heavens & Earth are established. If you believe this has yet to occur, then you admit you go to Hades when you die.
I believe we are living in the new Heavens and the new Earth, we no longer go to Hades.
I'm not making this up - read Revelation 20 & 21

Originally posted by Knight
I am not as faithful in devotionals as I probably should be. Thi s is something I'm working on. My wife and I pray before dinner every night to thank God for what He has given us. And I do seek repentance when I make mistakes and sin. I do these things, not to 'earn' my way to salvation but out of gratitude to my Lord Jesus Christ for His grace and mercy He has lavished upon me though I did not deserve it. 

I agree with you on this comment. We should do these things out of having a sincere relationship with God. All I'm saying is that there are *some* people who believe they will be "punished" if they don't have their daily Bible reading. Or will be "rewarded" if they pray before every meal.

You seem to understand many truths, I challenge you to read the Bible with both "Futurist" glasses and "Preterist" glasses. That is, try to understand the meaning of verses from a preterist point of view as well.

-Tallyn

Knight · Nov 26, 2002

Look, I'm finished with this discussion.

We cannot come to an agreement because we apparently see different things in the same scriptures. You have not, nor will you, convinced me that you are correct in this doctrine. I admit that I am incapable of convincing you otherwise due, in part, to my own lack of knowledge in this particular area.

I leave you with this. The book of Revelation was written in th elate 80's or early 90's. If the second coming had occurred in 70AD there would have been no need for this book. This is simple logic.

God Bless,

jenlu · Nov 26, 2002

and I'll leave you with this...because of what it described...that is impossible...

Tallyn · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by Knight
Look, I'm finished with this discussion.
I leave you with this. The book of Revelation was written in the late 80's or early 90's. If the second coming had occurred in 70AD there would have been no need for this book. This is simple logic.
God Bless,

With this assertion being made I must ask for your side of the proof which leads you to believe Revelation was written in the late 80's or 90's.

With that said:

John, in Revelation is asked to measure the Temple.
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

The measuring takes place prior to the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple. - which happened in 70AD!

In addition, John writes the entire book in the future tense. Why, in 80-90AD would John write about a past event in the future tense? Why would he be asked to measure a temple which didn't exist, inside of a city which was currently desolate?

Let's quickly take a portion of the above passage: for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city

And compare this to Christ's words in Luke 21: and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles.
 
The above words by Christ were to happen in the disciples generation!

-Tallyn

parousia70 · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by OldShepherd
False! Post your evidence! Get used to it, don't make broad claims about what the scriptures allegedly say unless you post the scripture, each and every time.

I thought you'd never ask!

Psalms 104:3
He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind.

Isaiah 19:1
The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

OS, This passage was fulfilled when the Assyrians invaded Egypt, although it is prophetically described as "God riding a swift Cloud"

Are you arguing that God actually rode a literal cloud into Egypt with the Assyrians? Can you prove anyone saw Him riding that cloud?

Psalm 18:7-14 and Joel 2:1-2 also speak of cloud comings.

Or How about 2 samuel 22:1-51?
This is David's grand tribute of thanksgiving for deliverance from his numerous and powerful enemies, and establishing him in the power and glory of the kingdom.
Notice the language that is used:

7 In my distress I called upon the Lord, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears. 8 "Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry. 9 Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it. 10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down With darkness under His feet. 11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew; And HE WAS SEEN upon the wings of the wind. 12 He made darkness canopies around Him, Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. 13 From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled. 14 "The Lord thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. 15 He sent out arrows and scattered them; Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them. "

Are you arguing that God's actual nostrils were smoking?
Are you arguing that God was seen on the wings of the wind?
Are you arguing the wind has wings?
Are you arguing that God personally sent actual arrows and actual lightning bolts that vanquished Davids enemies?

Youy must be, for your stated hermeneutic demands it.

Lastly (for now) Isaiah 52:10a
"The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations"

Do you believe this actually happened? you must for the Bible says it did, but where is any Historical evidence of every nation on earth witnessing with their eyes Gods actual "arm"?
Surely such a monumental global event of Gods actual arm being seen by every eye of every nation would have been recorded in History somewhere yes?

Why don't you go ahead and explain to our readers where the Bible teaches you to interprate the event of God being seen by the "eyes of all nations" in polar opposite fashion to the event of Christ that "Every eye shall see"?

The "day of the Lord" in the NT can not be properly understood when one chooses to reject the precedent meaning of all past OT "day of the Lord" events, as you appear to be doing.

Let scripture determine your eschatology, don't make scripture conform to it.

parousia70 · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by Anthony
Jesus did teach, that he would return during the lifetime of his disciples. Jesus' prediction about the destruction of the Temple of Jersulem, is right on target. The "Age of the Jewish" ended and the "Age of the Gentiles" started.

This all happen in secret and was invisible? This verse which was left out of the discussion, highlights the fan fare of Christ's final return.

LK 21:25

"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

Anthony,
I'm unclear as to what you are saying. First you affirm that Jesus taught that He would return in the disciples lifetime, but it appears you believe He didn't.

Now, either you believe He was wrong, or He lied.

If there is a 3rd option, I'd like ot hear it.
As for Jesus being SEEN RIDING A CLOUD, see my previous post.

Peace,
P70

parousia70 · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by Knight

I leave you with this. The book of Revelation was written in the late 80's or early 90's.

Yeah, I'm with the rest who say "PROVE IT"!

Anthony · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
Anthony,
I'm unclear as to what you are saying. First you affirm that Jesus taught that He would return in the disciples lifetime, but it appears you believe He didn't.

Now, either you believe He was wrong, or He lied.

If there is a 3rd option, I'd like ot hear it.
As for Jesus being SEEN RIDING A CLOUD, see my previous post.

Peace,
P70

I agree that something "special" did happen in 70AD, Jesus predictions did come true, but I feel there is plenty of Bible prophecy still not answered.

But where was the grand re-entry? Is that it Jesus what came and went? Did he stay just a day and go back to heaven? Can't He come again?

What about Luke 21:25

"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

All very interesting stuff :holy:

parousia70 · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by Knight
You have not, nor will you, convinced me that you are correct in this doctrine. I admit that I am incapable of convincing you otherwise due, in part, to my own lack of knowledge in this particular area. 

Knight,

This puzzles me. :scratch:

You admit that you don't know enough to be able to actually "Support" your belief, but claim you are absolutely positive ours is wrong.

If you admittedly don't know enough about what you "believe" to be able to prove your claim, how is it you are so sure you are right?

parousia70 · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by Anthony
I agree that something "special" did happen in 70AD, Jesus predictions did come true, but I feel there is plenty of Bible prophecy still not answered.

Jesus predictions did come true? Even the prediction you cited that He would return within the lifetime of His disciples, or do you believe that one failed? 

But where was the grand re-entry? Is that it Jesus what came and went? Did he stay just a day and go back to heaven? Can't He come again?

What about Luke 21:25

"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.  
 

As I illustrated in an earlier post,  This language of God being "Seen riding a cloud" is used throughout the OT to describe Human armies invading a nation as God's instrument of Judgement against that nation.

AD70 fits that set precident like a glove.

Same goes for "Sun Darkening, earth splitting, Heavens dissolving" etc, etc..... all this language of "Universal Catyclism" is used over and over throughout th OT to describe the (now long since fulfilled) fall of individual nations.

 Why then, when we get to this same language in the NT, do we make it the destruction of the entire Universe, in the face of such unwaivering evidence to the contrary?

I think if you study the OT use of the language Jesus and the apostles employed to describe his coming, you will see clearly How "special" 70AD was, as "the day the son of man was revealed", and how, as evidenced from my original post to start the thread, His coming is scripturally afixed to that time and that time alone.

He didn't come and Go, He is here now and He isn't leaving, ever.

God bless your studies,

P70

Mother Vashti · Nov 26, 2002

This thread is hilarious. Keep it up, fellas!

Brain Damage · Nov 27, 2002

Originally posted by jenlu
and I'll leave you with this...because of what it described...that is impossible...

 

May I ask you *what* is impossible ?

Tallyn · Nov 27, 2002

Originally posted by Anthony
I agree that something "special" did happen in 70AD, Jesus predictions did come true, but I feel there is plenty of Bible prophecy still not answered.

But where was the grand re-entry? Is that it Jesus what came and went? Did he stay just a day and go back to heaven? Can't He come again? 

I feel that Christ came to earth in 70AD and He is still here! This is what is truly great. He didn't leave us. Even most Christians will agree that He abides with us, wiping tears from our eyes, comforting us in our times of need.
This is what is meant by living in HIS kingdom....and His kingdom is eternal!
I've found that many Christians adamantly believe Christianity won't be complete until they can physically see and speak with Jesus face to face. Unfortunately, this is opposite of what Jesus himself taught! My kingdom is not of this world

-Tallyn

Anthony · Nov 27, 2002

There is more to the story . .

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

The Son of Man --- on the clouds.  No, Human Armies here.

. . . It's not over until the fat angels sings.

GW · Nov 27, 2002

Originally posted by Anthony
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call...

Anthony, it seems to me that you are not understanding these phrases as they are biblically used.

First, you emphasize that he will be "seen coming with clouds" as stated in Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7. But didn't you notice that this very event is described in Revelation 14:14-20, which is clearly a heavenly event and no earthly one? Read that Revelation 14:14-20 passage to see that ST. john is not thinking of a physical event in the skies overhead.

Also, Jehovah's OT apocalypses are always described as Jehovah coming down and leading armies, and shooting arrows, and bowing the heavens and destroying the earth and such. Those OT events had corresponding judgments on earth, but the Jews knew Jehovah never literally and physically did those things. Yet the prophets spoke in very physical/literal terms about those judgments:

*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows at Saul and his armies, destroying the earth and the heavens at the time (2 Sam 22:8-16)

*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows over Greece and blew His trumpet (Zechariah 9:13-16);

*Yahweh came down riding a cloud to beat up on Egypt (Isa 19:1-2);

*Yahweh made bare his Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10);

*Yahweh came to the Israelites at Sinai and Seir with Ten Thousand of His Saints and led a march on the fields of Edom (Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5);

*Yahweh destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).

So also did Christ do these things when "the Lord of the Vineyard came" in AD 66-70 and was to them the Stone that crushed them to powder and removed the Kingdom of God from them (see Matthew 21:40-45).

Anthony · Nov 27, 2002

Originally posted by GW
Anthony, it seems to me that you are not understanding these phrases as they are biblically used. 

I guess I'm not into "Bible Verse Gymnastics"

I understand "elsewhere" in the Bible, it says what it says, but "projection" doesn't apply here. You can twist the Bible into lots of interesting "balloon animals".

jenlu · Nov 27, 2002

Originally posted by Brain Damage
 

May I ask you *what* is impossible ?

 

Knight's conclusion on when Revelations was written...the destruction of Jerusalem is a main subject of the book...

Ben johnson · Nov 27, 2002

. . . It's not over until the fat angel sings.

Knight's conclusion on when Revelations was written...

"Revelation", no "s"...

...and for Christmas I shall send everyone the ALPHABET, minus ONE LETTER---
NO "L"! ("Noel!")

GW · Nov 27, 2002

Originally posted by Anthony
I guess I'm not into "Bible Verse Gymnastics"

I understand "elsewhere" in the Bible, it says what it says, but "projection" doesn't apply here. You can twist the Bible into lots of interesting "balloon animals".

Actually, Anthony, it is you that has to do the "gymnastics." I am simply letting the scripture interpret the scripture to find out what those phrases mean. The bible interprets itself, and I stick to its interpretation. You, on the other hand, are using your imagination to interpret what those phrases mean, and totally ignoring what the prophets mean by such phrases.

Apocalyptic language is a standard form of "doom language" all throughout scripture, and you are simply not taking this into account. Therefore, you are creating non-biblical interpretations. Since the OT prophets spoke of the various OT historic judgments of their times using apocalyptic metaphors, then why should you interpret Christ's use of those same phrases in some different way?

The fact is, Christ plainly taught that those signs as well as his return were to be seen by the apostles to whom he was speaking:

Matthew 24:33-34
even so you too, when you see all these things, know ye that he is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

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