Is Hell eternal ?

justsurfing · Jun 4, 2008

Hi PeachPuppy,

Your id info says you are 12 years old. Well, bless your heart! I don't think there were things like forums on the internet available when I was 12 years old.

Who knows what wonderful things may result because at 12 years old you can join Bible studies and share your pov.

Thanks for sharing your pov. It's wonderful to hear you testify of the Love of God and His desire that all people repent and go to Heaven.

Grace and peace.

PeachPuppy24 said:
Ok I hope this will help I didn't read what the other posts said.

Hades and Paradise are a foretaste and they are for people who died before the second coming, until the second coming when they are judged.
Heaven is for people who have been in Paradise and who are well pleasing to God.

Its not to late to repent, God loves you so much he would be happy to have you live with him for eternity.

Mathetes the kerux · Jun 4, 2008

justsurfing said:
Hi PeachPuppy,

Your id info says you are 12 years old. Well, bless your heart! I don't think there were things like forums on the internet available when I was 12 years old. Who knows what wonderful things may result because at 12 years old you can join Bible studies and share your pov.

Thanks for sharing your pov. It's wonderful to hear you testify of the Love of God and His desire that all people repent and go to Heaven.

Grace and peace.

Bless you for your grace JS . . .

(let us see how others bode . . .)

garry2 · Jun 4, 2008

justsurfing said:
Hi garry2,

Sometimes the Lord speaks to us. Maybe the Lord spoke to zeke and showed zeke that Satan was Cain's spiritual father. See John 8.

Adam fathered Cain physically. Adam was a son of God. God fathered Adam spiritually for God is Spirit and Adam was God's son.

Cain was a murderer and we all know that we cannot be born of God and hate our brother. Cain is someone who the scriptures, rightfully imo, would describe as Jesus spoke in John 8 as a "child of the devil".

Even if zeke isn't quoting in a manner that is scholarly... from my pov, he made a solid point in that Cain was a child of the devil spiritually. Did he say that Satan pysically fathered Cain? I wouldn't agree with that - but it sounds to me like if he's thinking spiritually -- that he would have gotten that by revelation of the Holy Spirit who speaks to our hearts.

Grace and peace.

No zeke37 is not just saying that satan is cains spiritual father which is correct, he says that satan is cains physical father and he rejects Genesis 4:1 which says Adam fathered cain.

justsurfing · Jun 4, 2008

Hi Briguy,

I've studied the atonement and what Jesus has done on the cross. It's a "mental block" to not see, imo, that Jesus completely eliminated the first covenant and nailed the law to the cross taking it away. Jesus instituted the 2nd covenant. The Bible states that the first covenant (which mandates death for sin) is obsolete, aging and will soon disappear.

The only way God could hold people in hell for eternity is if the law of sin and death was still in place... I'm thinking. If the second covenant completely replaces the first covenant... then the law has been taken away universally for all mankind in the universal atonement. Therefore, for it to disappear... means God will not be holding anyone under the curse of sin and death according to the first covenant. Everyone will be saved because even as all men were under the law of sin and death according to the first covenant... when that disappears... it disappears because all men are brought into the new covenant.

There can be no eternal punishment... because eternal punishment could only exist if the first covenant of sin and death existed eternally.

Tetelestai. The first covenant is obsolete, aging and will soon disappear. God wills for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ... and all shall.

This outcome is the only means by which the first covenant can completely disappear -- as all men enter into the second covenant through salvation in Jesus Christ according to God's mercy. You're erring, briguy... and not on the side of caution. It's erring on the side of unbelief, imo.

Where is the eternal first covenant and law of sin and death... if people are going to be punished eternally under it??

It doesn't exist eternally. It has been universally replaced by the second covenant in Jesus' Christ's effectual 100% universal atonement... it will not exist eternally... and there is, therefore, no such thing as eternal punishment.

It's just a translation error because it didn't enter into the hearts of men the things God has prepared. But that has entered into my heart and allandnull's heart, imo, by the Holy Spirit clearly revealing it to us.

I pray God will reveal it to you also.

Can you see the logical fallacy in believing there will be eternal punishment when the first covenant disappears and no longer exists therefore no one can be punished under it?? Tetelestai!! Paid in full!!

The second covenant of the Blood of Jesus Christ as Atoning sacrifice for all the sins of all people and all the world has been instituted... and is progressively replacing the reality of the 1st covenant in people's lives as persons are converted to living faith in Jesus. The day will come when the progression of salvation to all is complete... and the 1st covenant thus eternally... disappears.... and with it all punishment. Can't have both, bri. Can't have eternal punishment without an eternal first covenant. You err, my friend... and err greatly... as does McArthur and anyone else preaching the error of eternal punishment when the whole counsel of God and the Universal Atonement of Jesus Christ effectually denies it throughout the whole of scripture.

I pray God will open your eyes. Where's the first covenant in eternity? No where. That's where eternal punishment exists: no where (only in some people's imagination with no practical reality in God's Heart or His eternal decree or plan and purpose in Christ. All shall be saved.)

Thank you for the post.

Grace and peace.

Briguy47 said:
This posting is for 'allandnull' esp. (and 'justsurfing') plus all others who believe in soul annihilation or universal salvation :

I hope that you have the chance to listen to John MacArthurs' radio messages from June 2 and 3. They both fit in nicely with this thread that I created a few weeks back. He talks about eternity and the destiny of Christians and non-Christians. He says that the doctrine of soul annihilation is not scriptural and is very deceptive.

'Allandnull', you said that John MacArthur does not agree with the gifts of the Spirit and that he quenches the moving of the Spirit. This is totally untrue. He is a man of God whom I, and other believers, greatly respect and agree with. He has had much more theological education and teaching than you and I do, so why don't we both respect him in his God-ordained pastoral leadership, esp. in a day when there are so many phony, heretical televangelists out there.

Also, Jesus did refer to hell more often than Heaven. He may not have said the word 'hell' exactly but referred to it as a place of 'outer darkness', and 'a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth', etc.

The bottom-line here is that we are talking about a place of torment not torture. I don't believe that there is actual, literal 'fire' in the lake of fire (except for possibly Satan and his demons and the most wicked people who lived on this earth).
But rather, it will be emotional, psychological and spiritual torment of being separated from God forever.

I prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with this subject and approach it with the likeliness that all souls will live on forever in one place or the other.

justsurfing · Jun 4, 2008

Hi Mat,

Not as well... I turn to refute them in the name of the Savior of all men, the Savior of all the world: Jesus Christ!!

But a sweet 12 year old... I choose to see only things with which I agree.

If we're going to engage, Mat... we must discuss these things! lol

Grace and peace.

Mathetes the kerux said:
Bless you for your grace JS . . . (let us see how others bode . . .)

justsurfing · Jun 4, 2008

Hi Garry,

Ummm... yeah... bless zeke's heart... that's a problem. Eve is the mother of all living. Adam is the father of all mankind. Either Cain wasn't human, or Adam was his physically daddy.

Grace and peace.

garry2 said:
No zeke37 is not just saying that satan is cains spiritual father which is correct, he says that satan is cains physical father and he rejects Genesis 4:1 which says Adam fathered cain.

Jesus loves the cat · Jun 4, 2008

hell is eternal at least i think it is

Jesus loves the cat · Jun 4, 2008

try looking in the bible for anwers

Jesus loves the cat · Jun 4, 2008

or you can ask your pastor or a trusted adult that knows more about this topic.

Jesus loves the cat · Jun 4, 2008

anyway this is a good qustion to ask

Mathetes the kerux · Jun 4, 2008

justsurfing said:
Hi Briguy,

I've studied the atonement and what Jesus has done on the cross. It's a "mental block" to not see, imo, that Jesus completely eliminated the first covenant and nailed the law to the cross taking it away. Jesus instituted the 2nd covenant. The Bible states that the first covenant (which mandates death for sin) is obsolete, aging and will soon disappear.

The only way God could hold people in hell for eternity is if the law of sin and death was still in place... I'm thinking. If the second covenant completely replaces the first covenant... then the law has been taken away universally for all mankind in the universal atonement. Therefore, for it to disappear... means God will not be holding anyone under the curse of sin and death according to the first covenant. Everyone will be saved because even as all men were under the law of sin and death according to the first covenant... when that disappears... it disappears because all men are brought into the new covenant.

There can be no eternal punishment... because eternal punishment could only exist if the first covenant of sin and death existed eternally.

Tetelestai. The first covenant is obsolete, aging and will soon disappear. God wills for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ... and all shall.

This outcome is the only means by which the first covenant can completely disappear -- as all men enter into the second covenant through salvation in Jesus Christ according to God's mercy. You're erring, briguy... and not on the side of caution. It's erring on the side of unbelief, imo.

Where is the eternal first covenant and law of sin and death... if people are going to be punished eternally under it??

It doesn't exist eternally. It has been universally replaced by the second covenant in Jesus' Christ's effectual 100% universal atonement... it will not exist eternally... and there is, therefore, no such thing as eternal punishment.

It's just a translation error because it didn't enter into the hearts of men the things God has prepared. But that has entered into my heart and allandnull's heart, imo, by the Holy Spirit clearly revealing it to us.

I pray God will reveal it to you also. Can you see the logical fallacy in believing there will be eternal punishment when the first covenant disappears and no longer exists therefore no one can be punished under it?? Tetelestai!! Paid in full!! The second covenant of the Blood of Jesus Christ as Atoning sacrifice for all the sins of all people and all the world has been instituted... and is progressively replacing the reality of the 1st covenant in people's lives as persons are converted to living faith in Jesus. The day will come when the progression of salvation to all is complete... and the 1st covenant thus eternally... disappears.... and with it all punishment. Can't have both, bri. Can't have eternal punishment without an eternal first covenant. You err, my friend... and err greatly... as does McArthur and anyone else preaching the error of eternal punishment when the whole counsel of God and the Universal Atonement of Jesus Christ effectually denies it throughout the whole of scripture. I pray God will open your eyes. Where's the first covenant in eternity? No where. That's where eternal punishment exists: no where (only in some people's imagination with no practical reality in God's Heart or His eternal decree or plan and purpose in Christ. All shall be saved.) Thank you for the post.

Grace and peace.

The Old Covenant is ONLY taken away when faith is appropriated . . . if the OC was definitively taken away then Paul would not speak about it still being in place outside of Christ . . . and Hebrews would not speak about the condemnation still occuring if it was already dealt with.

garry2 · Jun 5, 2008

zeke37 said:
the very name antiChrist means instead of Christ....come on garry2. You did not quote the rest of my post, which further explained why...a little dishonest of you Christian...your M.O. so far

in His service
c

I didn't quote all you said because I wasn't challinging all you said, I quoted and highlighted your quotes that I responded to, and the scriptures you gave in support of those quotes, and I showed that those scriptures did not support what you said.

Are you going to be taken over again and start calling me a liar, what was it? 13 times in just one post.

Show us where dishonesty has been my M.O. so far.

Carey · Jun 5, 2008

Briguy47 said:
Hi, this is my first post here, as I have just registered with Christian Forums.

I have been doing a little research on the above topic on the internet. Does the original Greek and Hebrew versions support the doctrine of 'eternal' hell, esp. with the words of our Lord Jesus ? I am not enquiring here about the 'fire' in hell, as this could be an anology of God's wrath of fire ("spiritual" fire).

The reason I ask is that some preachers, theologians, etc., including C.S. Lewis (as far as I know), do not believe in the everlasting duration of hell's punishment. Are they correct ? Is the eternal part of hell something that has been translated into modern versions that do not line up with the original versions ?

Thanks to all respondents on this question.

For some it is but oyu have to understand which word of 3 words and laguages having different meanings is actually the meaning referred to in the 1 word Hell all 3 were translated to in English.

allandnull · Jun 5, 2008

I tried to cancel a repeated post but can't seem to find out how

allandnull · Jun 5, 2008

Briguy47 said:
This posting is for 'allandnull' esp. (and 'justsurfing') plus all others who believe in soul annihilation or universal salvation :

I hope that you have the chance to listen to John MacArthurs' radio messages from June 2 and 3. They both fit in nicely with this thread that I created a few weeks back. He talks about eternity and the destiny of Christians and non-Christians. He says that the doctrine of soul annihilation is not scriptural and is very deceptive.

He says what he believes. For approaching 30 years I have read many books on this subject and searched out the original languge word for word from many sources about it. I have read and re-read hundreds and hundreds of pages about the one Greek word "eon" alone. I have cross referenced multitudes of words and phrases to see what the Bible itself says about this. While I don't accept their dispensationalism, if you go to the site for the publishers of the translation by which you can access the original Greek better than any other, there is a detailed answer to an article by Arthur W. Pink called "Universalism Refuted." Now I have rather liked Pink, specially in how he explains he was brought out of racial dispensationalism into greater light. But here is a very able presenter of the opposing view being well answered. You'll have to enter the www dot first before the following address concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted1 followed by dot htm

Briguy47 said:
'Allandnull', you said that John MacArthur does not agree with the gifts of the Spirit and that he quenches the moving of the Spirit. This is totally untrue. He is a man of God whom I, and other believers, greatly respect and agree with. He has had much more theological education and teaching than you and I do, so why don't we both respect him in his God-ordained pastoral leadership, esp. in a day when there are so many phony, heretical televangelists out there.

I did not use the word quench; but He has a book against speaking in tongues. He does not believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today. That is a fact.

While not an absolute requirement, I do have great respect for men who have God manifesting with their ministry, though with the ususal reservations. This is not the case with MacArthur. There are many seminary professionals who even write Bible commentaries that don't believe in the Bible as we normally understand it nor any of the basic distinctively Christian doctrines. Religious education and Bible knowledge are not the same thing. Though MacArthur teaches some of the Biblical Christian message, he not only does not represent a majority of Christians, nor does he teach in accordance with what Scripture reveals concerning several of what in Hebrews 6 are called beginning or foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ. Personal integrity has value; but consider, many people are honestly wrong. However sincere, if they knew they were deceived they wouldn't be. MacArthur teaches racial dispensationalism which I particularly dislike. The top 5 English language Encyclopedia's in addition to The Encydlopedia Judeaica explicitly say, "There is no such thing as a Jewish race." That doesn't stop a lot of false teachers like Hal Lindsey, Van Impe or Macarthur. Racial Dispensationalism is usually very antinomian, escapist, inconsistent, carnally minded, extremely divisive and narrow minded, unable to accept Christians of another view, besides being just plain wrong. Not to go into it more here, but if you could buy or inter-library loan Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth A Critique of Dispensationalism by John H Gerstner, Ph.D. (foreword by R. C. Sproul) Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publ., Inc. it would repay you many times over in liberating your mind to see more accurately what the Bible is saying.

I also reccomend Pagan Christianity by Viola and Barna to help understand how far from being The Church in how we meet in the practise of MacArthur et al When God tells the story of the Church (mostly the book of Acts), there is no "Pastor" in it. The Lutheran pietists began to call their Priests Pastors and now nobody else can get a crumb! I went to church but the Church wasn't on the program! I don't care how knowledgable or gifted the man on stage is, he's not the body of Christ, and JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

Briguy47 said:
Also, Jesus did refer to hell more often than Heaven. He may not have said the word 'hell' exactly but referred to it as a place of 'outer darkness', and 'a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth', etc.

His statement is one commonly repeated among eternal torturers who do not study the doctrine for themselves. So I looked it up, counted the references in the Bible, but you still want to believe against all evidence. Not everybody has a taste for study and you probably don't see the value of looking it up yourself, doubly so when such evidence is irrelevant to you. This is one thing I try so hard to get people to do. Confine your expression of faith to the actual words the Holy Spirit chose to make His revelation known. Use concordances to prove if something is written or not. Verify important things from the original languges, but not just by usage. Paid translators have an agenda. This is how the authority of the Bible may be implemented. Without it you're going by hearsay. Many people who claim they believe the Bible are actullly going on what someone else said.

From birth or from re-birth you probably grew up among people that basically all think alike about these things. You're probably not someone from a nominal Roman Catholic background who came into the type of fellowship where you are because of a conversion experience because you'd be more open to the possibility those around you could be wrong about some things, having already gone through it. You probably have never fellowshipped with believers outside your denominational ghetto: no one from classic Reformed or Presbyterion background, no Roman Catholics or Orthodox, no Charismatics. Please!

Briguy47 said:
The bottom-line here is that we are talking about a place of torment not torture. I don't believe that there is actual, literal 'fire' in the lake of fire (except for possibly Satan and his demons and the most wicked people who lived on this earth).
But rather, it will be emotional, psychological and spiritual torment of being separated from God forever.

The torments are tortures if you use a dictionary. God is supposed to be doing this ultimate neverending evil. God is the creator of both the lake of fire and the beings who go into it. He sustains their existence or they would cease to be. This means He is the Supreme Torturer. You are also to be an imitator of God. If that bothers your conscience I suggest you listen to the witness to Himself God made it to be. Who made up this adjusted for sensitive seekers non-Biblical scenario? Hell lite! It matters little. Infinite torture is Supreme INJUSTICE. No reaping what you sow and only what you sow as the Bible says. It is a false idea about God. His word says, "No more pain!"

Where God is not there is only nothing for, "By Him all things consist!" To depart from God only puts you far from Him. "He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him." Psalm 126:6

Briguy47 said:
I prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with this subject and approach it with the likeliness that all souls will live on forever in one place or the other.

It is spirit, soul and body people after being resurrected who are referred to in the ordinary unceasing torture doctrine. "The soul that sins, it shall die" is what Scripture teaches. The lake of fire is called the second death. God says he will abolish death. How could the first death be the last enemy? How could someone live in death? Tradition makes people speak self contadictory nonsense instead of God's word!

Hell is one English language word pasted over several very different places not made interchangable by anything written in Scripture. He never says gehenna is hades, or tartarus is gehenna. God intended something by saying "hades" and in other places he meant something else by saying "geehena" or He wouldn't have spelled them differently. The Bible never calls the lake of fire "hell." God has spoken. What we endure entirely too much of is men's interpretations of what God meant to say rather the actual words chosen by the Holy Spirit to convey God's revelation. If we would bow our hard heart and turn our stiff necks to what God says or does not say, limiting our expression of faith to the actual words of the Bible, verified by the original Scripture, we would make more rapid progress entering into the Divine nature. It is by the use of concordances we can implement the authority of Scripture to which there is at least widespread lipservice.

People often speak of "heaven" being the other place. Jesus says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." (Mk 13:31, Lk 21:33) What will you do if you die and heaven is not there? How Scripture uses the word ought to be looked at more closely. The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture. The commentaries like to explain it with a Latin term to sound like they know what they're talking about. They say the plural "heavens" is majestis pluralis, meaning plural only to communicate the exceeding glory of heaven. In reality there are three (3) heavens, (2 Co 12:2) corresponding to the dimensions of spirit (where peculiarly God's presence is), soul (psychic realm,) and body (the heaven of earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.) Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.) While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.

And you say something I'm sure you haven't thought about, at least from the perspective of the countless millions of sentient beings you consign to ceasless torture forever: 'I prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with this subject..." Your caution has nothing to do with their condition. Love, rather than religious indoctrination, would err on their side, assuming the unending triumph of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World! Go and tell the world about it!

---James M. Rohde

justsurfing · Jun 5, 2008

Hi Mat,

Exactly. The fact that it is taken away in the Atonement... and the Book of Hebrews says it is obselete, aging and soon to disappear... means all will have faith appropriated to them. Until everyone comes to Christ.. it is aging... but not yet disappeared. After everyone comes to Christ it will disappear. Right now, it is rendered obsolete because Jesus Christ replaced it in the Spirit in His Atonement... and finished a complete work of replacement. That replacement is being actualized in the lives of men. The Bible says it's going to completely disappear. As you say, the truth is... it could ONLY be taken away completely... if faith is universally appropriated by all mankind.

It doesn't fit in an eternal punishment position... because, Mat, sincerely... the position is inaccurate. The Word disproves it... the paradigm, therefore imo, must shift. There is no OC in eternity. It completely vanishes.

There is no such thing, as the result,... as eternal punishment. All come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and are included in the NC... in due testimony of time.

Jesus universally nailed the entire law to the cross and took it away for all mankind:

Colossians 2:13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Jesus universally instituted the new covenant, and universally made the first covenant obsolete (replacing it). The first covenant is aging and is soon to vanish away (no longer existing).

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 8:7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus Christ, in a universal atonement, universally abolished death (by universally nailing the law to the cross and universally ending the Old Covenant) and universally instituted life and immortality (by universally instituted the New Covenant) ~~ which shall come into full fruition when all come to saving faith and the Old Covenant (which is obsolete and aging) completely disappears and vanishes away as all come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 1:9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

God wills for all men to be saved and has made Jesus Christ ~~ who has already completed, Tetelestai!, a complete Universal Atonement in paying the ransom for all men ~~ the Universal Mediator between all mankind and God. (Meaning all men will be reconciled back into relationship with God through Jesus Christ because it was a functional and in totality Atonement, paid Ransom, and Mediatorship... which will be fully instituted.....) All men will come to a saving knowledge of the truth in Christ... in due testimony of time.

1 Timothy 2:1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all menthe testimony given in its proper time

God is the Party who instituted the Old Covenant. God is the Party who, by the Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the death of the Testator, canceled the Old Covenant and replaced it with the New Covenant. Just as all mankind was under the Old Covenant (irrespective of human will ~~ it is God who is in Authority and is the Party who instituted the Old Covenant)... God has simply cancelled the Old Covenant and replaced it with the New Covenant... universally. That's God's prerogative... because He is God and institutes and cancels and replaces Covenants by His own Sovereign good pleasure.

Mat, it sincerely is natural reasoning which states that man's response and will determines "outcome". No, that's not how the Covenants work biblically. Biblically, God institutes and cancels and revokes and replaces HIS Covenant He institutes with all mankind as one group and unit. ALL were under the Old Covenant. ALL have been effected by the fact that God has canceled the Old Covenant through Jesus nailing the law to the cross and canceling the Old Covenant taking it away. ALL are now "under" the power of the New Covenant and thus will be brought to saving faith when God so determines... HOWEVER there is not ONE MAN who will "escape" the NEW COVENANT being instituted into his life so that the Old Covenant completely disappears.

All men, therefore, shall be saved as per God's effectual will as completed in the Atonement ~~ which anyone who studies the Atonement and sees the Old Covenant disappearing and vanishing away... God cancelling it and replacing it with the NEW Covenant... knows with certainty by seeing and believing that truth... that all mankind was saved on the cross in the Atonement postionally/covenantally in Christ... and shall be included in Christ in the New Covenant in due testimony in time when God shall grant saving faith to include them in Christ in the New Covenant. Everyone is coming to a saving knowledge of the truth. God in His Sovereignty has so decreed... as the scripture plainly reveals in what Jesus did... covenantally.

Tetelestai! It is finished! "Paid in full"" on the cross. This is what it actually means to say "Jesus is waiting until His enemies be made His footstool." Jesus is waiting for everything to be reconciled to God and the functional manifestation of the Atonement for all sins to be made practical reality as all mankind is born anew in Christ as the New Covenant is appropriated to them (and they are removed out from under the law and placed in Christ in the New Covenant).

No man can change what Jesus did covenantally on the cross by "his will". God is not taking "no"... for an answer.

Galatians 3:15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Well, it's very clear. The OC is completely replaced and will completely disappear. There can be no "eternal punishment". Systematic theology relative to the Atonement, the taking away of the law, the replacing of the Old Covenant with the New Covenant with the Old Covenant obsolute, aging, and soon to disappear and vanish... rules out any possibility for eternal ongoing punishment.

Eternal punishment... is one of the greatest... lies... ever told. Scripture proves it to be the invention of Bible translators and contrary to the truth of Jesus' Atonement and canceling the Old Covenant to fully, completely, and universally (in due testimony of time) institute and manifest the New Covenant. It's airtight... an airtight case... as we look to the Atonement and God's Rule Over Covenants in His relationship with mankind

Checkmate!

Grace and peace.

Mathetes the kerux said:
The Old Covenant is ONLY taken away when faith is appropriated . . . if the OC was definitively taken away then Paul would not speak about it still being in place outside of Christ . . . and Hebrews would not speak about the condemnation still occuring if it was already dealt with.

allandnull · Jun 5, 2008

This tetelestai that Jesus cried out on the cross, meaning "it is finished" was in those ancient times written on a bill of goods when it was completely paid; hence, "Paid in full!"

If the payment for death is endless torture (instead of death as the Scripture says), then Jesus, to completely pay what is owed would have to continue to be tortured even now and forever or "it is NOT finished!" and "it is Not paid in full!"

To say it is never ending would mean God could never be satisfied, meaning the death of Christ does not satisfy Him.

Why would Christ the substitute in paying for sin die and be dead only 3 days but man without the substitute be tortured ceaslessly forever?

Don't give me religious double-talk that ignores the nature of Jesus the Christ! Many dismiss the above by claiming Jesus, being God, paid an infinite price in dying so it doesn't have to be for ever. Wrong! This disallows equivalency between His sacrifice and the payment due. Furthermore, He laid aside His God nature according to Scripture, "...who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty himself..." (Phillipians 2:6-7) This self-emptying or kenosis is well recognized, it was a temporary divestment of the fulness of Deity, an important answer to why Jesus could say, "the Father, who is greater than I" and, being of the mind we are also to have, for our contemplation very edifying. God cannot die. Jesus died as a human being. Because of Who He was that means everything of Adam and His world, everything God blessed therein was permenently finished. He raised a new creation that death has no dominion over and ascended into God in such a way as to send Himself into us as Spirit. The next order of business is for this hidden in us to be revealed and become the determining factor in the affairs of all mankind.

PeachPuppy24 · Jun 6, 2008

Jesus loves the cat said:
hell is eternal at least i think it is

It is...

allandnull · Jun 6, 2008

Jesus loves the cat said:
hell is eternal at least i think it is

PeachPuppy24 said:
It is...

ANSWERS:

There will be no more death (1st or 2nd) and no more pain! God says "...and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. " (Revelation 21:4-5)

The word "hell" in English is pasted over several different words in the original language. These words are not related to each other either like the one word "hell" would make you think.

"Eternal" in the Bible refers to things that are not forever. Here's only a few examples:

Jonah was not in "hell" "...forever" (Jonah 2:2 and 6)

A bondslave could not possibly serve his master "forever." (Exodus 21:6)

God did not dwell in Soloman's temple "forever." (1 Kg. 8:13)

You shouldn't trust what everybody else says about God when you can go to Him yourself. You can look up things in the original languages of the Bible too. There's free software to help do it.

If it is not mistakes in translations that say hell is forever, then these are just some of the parts of the Bible that don't make sense:

Jer 18:2-6........God mars vessels & then remakes them
Lam 3:31-32...God will not cast off forever
Is 2:2..............ALL nations will flow to the Lord's house
Joel 3:21.........God will cleanse blood not cleansed
Gen 18:18.......ALL families of the earth will be blessed
Is 45:22..........ALL the earth commanded to look and be saved
Is 45:23..........Unto God ALL will bow & every tongue swear
Is 52:10..........ALL earth will see the salvation of God
Ps 65:2-4........ALL flesh will come to God
Is 11:9.............The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
Ps 22:25-29......ALL will remember & turn unto the Lord
Is 25:7..............He will destroy the veil that's cast over ALL
Is 25:8..............He will swallow up death (ALL death) in victory
Is 25:8..............He will wipe away tears from ALL faces
Gen 12:3..........All families of the earth shall be blessed.

Eph 1:11..........God works ALL things after counsel of His will
Jn 8:29.............Jesus ALWAYS does which pleases His Father
I Tim 2:4.........God will have ALL to be saved
I Jn 4:14..........Jesus sent to be the Savior of the world
Jn 4:34............Jesus to do the will of God who sent Him
Jn 12:47..........Jesus came to save ALL
I Tim 2:6.........Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL
Jn 5:36 ...........He will finish the works He was sent to do
Jn 4:42............Jesus is the Savior of the world
Jn 12:32.........Jesus will draw (literally, drag) ALL to Himself
Rm 5:15-21....In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live
I Cor 15:22....In Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL live
Eph 1:10........ALL come into Him at the fulness of times
Phl 2:9-11.....EVERY TONGUE shall confess Jesus is Lord
I Cor 12:3......Cannot confess except IN (not 'by' as in KVJ) THE HOLY SPIRIT
Rm 11:26.......ALL Israel will be saved
Act 3:20-21....Restitution (Reconstitution) of ALL
Lk 2:10...........Jesus will be the joy to ALL people
Eph 2:7...........His grace to be shown in the ages to come
Heb 8:11-12...ALL will know God
Lk 3:6.............ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God
Jms 5:11..........End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rev 15:4..........ALL Nations worship when judgments seen
II Cor 5:17.......ALL becomes a new creation in Christ
Rm 11:32.........ALL subjected to unbelief, mercy on ALL
Rm 11:36.........ALL out of God, thru Him, and into Him
Eph 4:10...........Jesus will fill ALL things
Rev 5:13...........ALL creation seen praising God
I Cor 15:28.......God will be ALL in ALL
Rev 21:4-5........No more tears, ALL things made new
I Cor 3:15.........ALL saved, yet so as by fire
I Jn 2:2..............Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world
Rm 11:15..........Reconciliation of the world
I Tim 4:9-11......Jesus is the Savior of ALL, especially those that believe

GOD IS LOVE!!!

justsurfing · Jun 7, 2008

Mat, (and others),

It is not about "us" and our "will". That is not how true spiritual reality works... it's only a very small piece of the larger view. The truly "big picture" is God making, cancelling, and replacing ALL covenant with ALL mankind through Jesus Christ our Lord. Look please, see please, that the Old Covenant has been completely replaced by the Second Covenant... and this by God. None of us "chose" to be under the Old Covenant. God instituted it, and man came under it. None of us, really, "chose" to have God institute the New Covenant to replace the Old Covenant. Yet, God has done it universally through Jesus Christ. All men must, and shall, come under it. God has so mandated through Jesus Christ. God has power to transfer us from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant according to His Will and Plan.

Hebrews 10:1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are comingnot the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I amit is written about me in the scroll
I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

To know what will happen, we must see from a Covenant Position as God sees covenant... not from a man-centered view of how we personally experience covenant.

To see and know the larger truth... we must see from the "God MACRO Covenant Big Picture"... and not the "man micro personal experience sliver of the larger puzzle pieces".

God the Father, through the Lord Jesus Christ, completely replaced the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. (Replaced, made obsolete the OC). Jesus with one sacrifice once for all time made the sacrifice for all sins... and "Tetelestai!"... all the payment to move all mankind from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant was fully made. It is God's right, and clearly set forth will and the revealed end result, that all men will be saved... the OC having been replaced and made obsolete... fully replaced by the NC via the Atonement. When you begin viewing scripture from the GOD MACRO VIEW COVENANTALLY... it's like the scales come off one's eyes. Yes, God can do it:

Isaiah 28:9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
23Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
24Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
25When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
26For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
27For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
28Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
29This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

God is not taking "no" for an answer. God has already replaced and made obsolete the Old Covenant. God is actively disannuling man's covenant with death (the law of sin and death under the schoolmaster of the law by the OC). He has already REPLACED and DISANNULLED man's covenant with death universally by what Jesus did on the cross. When we see the MACRO VIEW of GOD moving by COVENANT and SEE THE COVENANT has already been replaced, man's relationship to the OC has already been disannulled by God... and Jesus is waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. Jesus is waiting for the mercy of God to move in fullness so that all mankind are "brought over" from the OC into the NC in personal experience of saving faith in Him that causes people to be born anew in Him. The sacrifice setting in motion the "final recovery 'reconciliation' process."

I believe "let's go onto perfection" in the book of Hebrews is to become mature in seeing the macro view of Universal Covenant Institution, Replacement, and Conversion on the universal level. That's how covenants truly work... they are instituted towards all mankind by God and God does all the work of carrying them forward and completing them... just as Jesus did all the work and completed the Atonement. I believe "let's go onto perfection" means stepping back out of ourselves "far enough" to see the "big picture" and understand what Jesus has covenantally accomplished in the ATONEMENT from God's macro covenant view. Then, we see what only the mature can see (imo)... the mystery revealed of the "big picture". We cannot see that so long as we look to the micro view of man's experience in individually moving over the process of time into the NC. We can only see the Macro Covenantal View when we understand Covenant Implementation, Cancellation, Replacement from the Macro Universal View of God...and see God in full control... moving now by His Spirit to institute the Universal Reign and Rule of Jesus Christ through Full Universal Implementation of the New Covenant... which causes the OC to fully disappear.

The Mystery Revealed of the Will of God:

Ephesians 1:8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

(Did your eyes pop open??

) When the Covenant is Revealed... in the Macro View ... the mystery is revealed.

Can't see it as long as we look at anything but the Covenant Level as "one fell swoop" to all mankind... progressively being absorbed into the NC through conversion in salvation.

Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.

I believe I just "set before you" the view of perfection. Because God is making all things perfect through Christ... and this can be seen when we sit with God in Heavenly places viewing His reign and rule through Universal Covenant Institution, Cancellation, and Replacement with all mankind... and His Spirit moving to fully progressively Implement the Final Recovery... and Restitution, thus Reconciliation, of all things: through Jesus Christ our Lord... and a PERFECT SACRIFICE AS OUR PERFECT HIGH PRIEST.

It's the "big picture" of the book of Hebrews into which God was speaking when He speaks in Hebrews 6:1-3 of going on to the view of perfection.

It's a great opportunity, Mat, to see life... from God's Throne's View.

So, well, I'll have to tell my boyfriend that I was forced to turn down a very attractive,

, engagement offer. I pray you step back, see the MACRO COVENANT VIEW, and so join God looking down on all creation... seated with Christ in Heavenly places... knowing God is moving even know in implementation... and all things are coming under the footstool of Jesus Christ and He will rule over all things as the One Head in PERFECTION... out of hte PERFECT ATONEMENT... and the final restoration of all things guaranteed, purchased, taken care of it, and in process of full manifestation.

It's like Coke: the real thing.

Any thing less... is just plain... imitation. Flattery... in believing how powerful man could be to disannul what God has covenanted as God and is instituting with or without mans agreement on earth... merely the worst form of imitation... but imitation nonetheless of the real thing: the truth of Ultimate Reconciliation of ALL THINGS. (That's how MACRO COVENANTS instituted by GOD... work... in due testimony of time.)

Blessings to you... it's agreat blessing to be have the opportunity to see this, Mat, seated with Christ in Heavenly places from the "big picture" MACRO COVENANTAL... view. It's much better than the view from man's place in time experiential musings that are just too "micro" to tell the whole macro story and view... as the book of Hebrews,, when more fully seen in context, tells the story and gives the view, imo.

Grace and peace.

Is Hell eternal ?

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