What is the Church's relationship to Israel?

This is an interesting poll for sure.

Romans 11 discusses the issue thoroughly. The issue is not one of a particular people but of the promises and covenants which bind us to the family of God. Israel is still the heir of many promises and many Jews will be saved in the end. The Jewish nation will survive the tribulation and a remnant will dwell in the land. the idea that all that was once spoken concerning Israel now applies to the church is simplistic. We serve and know God under a New Covenant the details of which are dscribed in the New Testament. The Old Testament (Covenant) does not apply to believers in Jesus even though it led to this New Convenant. If you are in Christ you are free from all but the righteous requirement of the law, which in fact leaves us exactly where Abraham and Melchiziedeck were 500 years before the Law was given. The law was a school master that should have led the Jews to know Christ when he came, but they did not know Him. By faith all of the saints of old and all true Christians are grafted into the tree of God's promises, and though Israel has been groomed and cultivated in a special way among the nations, we like wild olive branches can also partake of that rich heritage when we understand it in the context of our New Covenant relationship with the Father through Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. And they are all one and equally separate indivisible three.

Hagnismos said:

Romans 11 discusses the issue thoroughly. The issue is not one of a particular people but of the promises and covenants which bind us to the family of God. Israel is still the heir of many promises and many Jews will be saved in the end. The Jewish nation will survive the tribulation and a remnant will dwell in the land. the idea that all that was once spoken concerning Israel now applies to the church is simplistic. We serve and know God under a New Covenant the details of which are dscribed in the New Testament. The Old Testament (Covenant) does not apply to believers in Jesus even though it led to this New Convenant. If you are in Christ you are free from all but the righteous requirement of the law, which in fact leaves us exactly where Abraham and Melchiziedeck were 500 years before the Law was given. The law was a school master that should have led the Jews to know Christ when he came, but they did not know Him. By faith all of the saints of old and all true Christians are grafted into the tree of God's promises, and though Israel has been groomed and cultivated in a special way among the nations, we like wild olive branches can also partake of that rich heritage when we understand it in the context of our New Covenant relationship with the Father through Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. And they are all one and equally separate indivisible three.

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I agree with a ton of what you said there. but remember that yes we were grafted into the olive tree.the olive tree is singular and the passage says that perhaps jews will be "grafted back in"no person I dont care what their ethnicity if they reject Christ gets a free pass.israel is the Church of christ

PattyOfurniture said:

I agree with a ton of what you said there. but remember that yes we were grafted into the olive tree.the olive tree is singular and the passage says that perhaps jews will be "grafted back in"no person I dont care what their ethnicity if they reject Christ gets a free pass.israel is the Church of christ

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Yeah, agreement. No free passes. Rejecting the offer in Christ is an eternal mistake.

do you believe in millenial reign? Most I know believe that a remnant of genetic Israel will survive the tribulation and inherit the lands promised them in the OT. As for eternity, Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no man comes ot the Father but by Him.

God's bless

Hagnismos said:

Yeah, agreement. No free passes. Rejecting the offer in Christ is an eternal mistake.

do you believe in millenial reign? Most I know believe that a remnant of genetic Israel will survive the tribulation and inherit the lands promised them in the OT. As for eternity, Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no man comes ot the Father but by Him.

God's bless

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as far as that, I myself do not.any promises to anyone are contingent of Faith and acceptance in/of Christ.the Church in my opinion is the Israel of Prophecy.i guess i agree most with the partial preterists.
i myself do not believe in Dispensationalism.theres only 1 olive tree,hopefully individual Jews will be grafted back in.theres no Jew nor Greek,but all are the same in Christ Jesus.
if you read the territorial promises to Israel,they can all fit into a metaphorical/spiritual actuality in the Church.
just my take

I never heard of that. Wrong spelling - Ekklesia?

I agree GerTzedek 100%. Replacement theology is shocking and is an abomination indeed!

salida said:

I agree GerTzedek 100%. Replacement theology is shocking and is an abomination indeed!

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maybe because one has to actually read a Bible to see it as opposed to using it to prop up a worn leg on a wicker coffee table(thats survived since the 80's somehow)

salida said:

I agree GerTzedek 100%. Replacement theology is shocking and is an abomination indeed!

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actually i'm very interested in a biblical reasoning as to why you yourself find it shocking.verses please
ps. what I myself find "shocking and abominable" is that you take anything a person that rejects Jesus says about the church as remotely credible

Replacement Theology? I googled that and I guess I knew it had been around a while but did not realized the roots. I just believe in the millenium because of this verse

'Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.' Revelation 20:6

I can't find any way within the context to think of that as anything other than a literal 1000 year reign of Christ with the Church as his priests. I'm really looking forward to it actually. I am sad for what lies between here and there but I can't say that I will miss the times of the Gentiles that much.

Hagnismos said:

Replacement Theology? I googled that and I guess I knew it had been around a while but did not realized the roots. I just believe in the millenium because of this verse

'Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.' Revelation 20:6

I can't find any way within the context to think of that as anything other than a literal 1000 year reign of Christ with the Church as his priests. I'm really looking forward to it actually. I am sad for what lies between here and there but I can't say that I will miss the times of the Gentiles that much.

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I hear ya.its kinda cool to read all that in 1 verse...lol.next step is to write a fictional series based on 2 verses and make millions of Dollars(as well as suing your christian brother and co-author).

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7244250

(message #2)

The religion of anyone who is "shocked" by God's New Covenant with the house of Israel is not Christianity (Christ) but Judaism (the Jews).

This is from my mentor and friend. It totally blows my mind how small people make God to be. For God so loved THE WORLD.......
I highly recommend this book and the pre-cursor to it.


Pattyofurniture, I see you are from FL (me Too) Stephen will be speaking in Fl (and on radio) in the fall if you are interested.

Israel and the Church: Who are God’s Chosen People?, by Dr. Rev. Stephen Sizer

How often have you heard the Jewish people described as God’s ‘chosen people’? Probably so often that you have never even questioned it. It is so ingrained that to deny it is often seen as evidence of anti-Semitism. As is the assumption that God blesses and curses nations on the basis of how they treat Israel – which is sometimes used as a threat. This view goes back to Genesis 12:3. Jerry Falwell, for example, says God is blessing America because ‘America has been kind to the Jew.’1 He claims that God ‘will bless those who bless the Jews and curse whoever curses the Jews.’2 That is why Christians United or Israel conducts ‘a Night to Honor Israel’3 in as many cities as possible so that God will continue to bless America and Canada.

It may surprise you to discover that the New Testament never uses the term ‘chosen’ to describe the Jewish people. It is only used of those who follow Jesus. Does that mean God has two separate ‘chosen people’? Some like to think so. They are usually called ‘dispensationalists’ and this is a popular viewpoint among evangelicals in the United States.
In this chapter we will begin by looking at the evidence for two ‘chosen people’ and then tackle the ‘blessing and cursing’ issue. Then we will examine the term ‘Israel’ in the Old and New Testament. We shall then consider some of the biblical imagery God uses to describe his relationship to his people such as the analogy of the vine and the vineyard. We also need to define what we mean by words like ‘Jew’, ‘chosen’ and ‘children of God’.
Full Article Here

GerTzedek said:

It amazes me the responses I see here that act as if the Hebrew scriptures are not part of the Christian Bible.

I note that I originally put up this poll last August, almost a year ago. At that time I was still a believer in JC. I have to tell you folks, it was this issue, this unrelenting disrepect of Israel, G-d's covenant people, by the Church, that eroded what had been a faith of 47 years. I read these responses and just shake my head.

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My take on the issue is under review. I used to think that Israel was simply a done deal. At least as far as any relationship with God. I now am rethinking the issue. I am leaning toward believing the God will keep His promises to the remnant of Israel. I think He will give them Jerusalem, and rule the earth from there. Actually, from New Jerusalem, but also from Jerusalem. Far as I am concerned, you are quite welcome to it. I am leaning toward God using Jews (that believe in Jesus, or the remnant) to be high priests to this world. I think where I used to get real upity, was when some insinuated that Israel today was God's land, or that it was His idea they displace the arabs, etc. I can see that is not a possibility.

I chose other. The answer is both/and not either/or to a very great extent. The poll choices were …

1. G-d divorced Israel. Ekklesia is now Israel.
2. Israel is ever G-d's Covenant People, but Ekklesia is the New Israel.
3. Ekklesia is grafted onto Israel, becoming Israel as well.
4. Israel is ever Israel. Ekklesia is the People of God, not Israel.
5. Same as above, but Jews within Ekklesia are also still Israel
6. Other (please explain)


1. To say that God divorced Israel has some partial truth. The prophecies of God in Hosea alternate between "lo ami" and "ami" indicating a dual status of Israel both for the present and the future. Now, if your wife is a Gomer, you can certainly divorce her. Yet this same prophet proclaims the everlasting love and mercy towards his people. When Israel rejected the bridegroom, Jesus, she rejected status as his people because Jesus is God, and to reject him is to reject God. However, when Elijah comes, he will turn the hearts of Israel back to Jesus. And there are already many Messianic Jews already doing the same. During this waiting phase, Paul says they were removed from the vine. And the general basis for replacement is spelled out verse by verse through Justin the Martyr around 150 A.D. in his Dialog with Trypho, a Jew. But Justin looked only to the events of his own day and not ahead to the second advent of the Lord, wherein many passages of Scripture that he didn't mention would be fulfilled. Lo ami status is temporary. It is more like a separation than a divorce. And prophecy points to a reconciliation when they look on the one they pierced, as Paul states after the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

2. The idea that Israel is ever God's Covenant People, but Ekklesia is the New Israel has some truth but is not fully accurate. It makes out that there are two Israels, which in a sense there are. After all, one can distinguish between blood-line Israel, the borders of Israel and New Israel as Church, so the statement is partially true. But my reason for rejecting this is due to prophecy and the fulfillment of all things, wherein Israel as a nation with a specific set of borders is united in his blood, so that it is not just their blood pointing forward to him, but his blood being their lifesource. That is to say that he becomes their life. Or to allow the words of the choice given, Old Israel becomes New Israel because in the eyes of God there is only one Israel. But that Israel is not currently the Israel defined by blood-lines or borders, and certainly not by a teaching framework of an unfulfilled Law of Moses or the additional traditions of men added through Talmudic midrash. Christ fulfilled and will fulfill the whole law, but only the TNKH. The rest is man-made, as inspired as much of it may seem, and as dear to many as it has become. It is not the word of God. It is the word of men. Anyway, Ekklesia does not replace Israel. It becomes Israel and old Israel rejects the new covenant but not the old. They are what they are. But God also has an unconditional covenant that he has made to them. So even if they have rejected the new covenant they are still connected by covenant - not just the old covenant, but by an unconditional covenant. So yes they are his covenant people, but the church is more his covenant people by the new covenant, as this is a better covenant, except that for both the promise is the same, the new covenant remaining available and being eventually accepted by blood-line, land owning Israel in the end.

3. You might think I would have gone along with 3 above, where church is grafted onto Israel becoming Israel as well. But I had to reject this not because the gentiles are not grafted in, but because Israel is indeed replaced, if not permanently, at least temporarily. They aren't grafted into the Old Covenant, everyone is invited to the vine of life. Whoever accepts the vine in faith becomes Israel. The one Israel is new. And the new wine will burst the old wine skins. That is what happened. They rejected the new wine, which flowed out to the gentiles. Some of them believed. The church was founded on their belief. All of the first apostles were Messianic Jews. Then when some of these, of the party of James, attempted to impose the Law on the gentiles, an end was put to the dispute by council. Actually there were only three legal requirements given to the gentiles - that they abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, and from fornication.

It’s a little bit like hitching a ride on a train. Some get off. Others get on. Its the same train. There isn't more than one train. But the train moves along the track and comes full circle allowing the first passengers who got off to get back on again before reaching its final destination.

Please do not misconstrue this as anti-Semitism. I love you. I love you. I love you. Jesus dies for all, both Jew and gentile. A handful of Jews, not the whole nation, roused up a crowd to have their own Messioch crucified by Romans. It was an ironic tragedy with the happy result that God is still in full control and used human folly to achieve his own ends, not for his own benefit, but for ours.

4. "Israel is ever Israel. Ekklesia is the People of God, not Israel." This I rejected again, not because it didn't contain some truth, but because it doesn't give the whole picture. Israel is ever Israel as Israel a nation and a people born by blood. Non-Messianic and Messianic Jews throughout the world can identify themselves with this Israel, whether or not they are even legal citizens of it, or even if they have lost track of their genealogy. No big deal. I respect that. And nobody can take it away from them as a heritage. We love you. We love you. We love you. And we are really happy you got your land back!!! Where we differ is with depriving the gentiles of this same title, Israel, when we are grafted into the one vine, as the people of God through the Messiah who prophesied concerning being the light for the gentiles so that he could rule the whole world from Jerusalem. But not just Jerusalem on earth, the kingdom of God prior to the restoration of all things, as well - which we call the church.

Israel now has her land back, but is still rejecting her Messiah. This brings the church back into the same position it was in prior to 70A.D., except there is no temple built yet. I await the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-40+. But lo, the Temple Mount is too small to build Ezekiel's temple, even if politically you could knock down the Dome of the Rock without causing World War III.

In any event, to be grafted in means to be Israel. To be the people of God means to be Israel. I am a gentile, yet I am a true Jew. I am Israel. I am Jerusalem. When I pray for the church I pray for Jerusalem. When I pray for Jerusalem I pray for the church. I pray for Zion. But the two are one. So my answer is both/and rather than either/or. Yes, the land and the blood and the boundaries and the citizenship and the coming king who will rule the world from Zion, Messiah when he returns. We are one in him.

At that time he will break the city in two by an earthquake, which will stretch out the property line to rebuild the temple according to the plan given to Ezekiel. And when it is completed we can celebrate Chanukah together! To attempt to build the temple before Messiah returns will result in futility and bloodshed. I warn against contributing to any such project. I love you. I love you. I love you. Just follow prophecy. It's not about what I think. It's about what he said.

5. Same as above, but Jews within Ekklesia are also still Israel? OK. As with the others, on this one I also have partial agreement too but reject it. I reject it because I will not deprive the church of the title Israel, Zion, Jerusalem, Sharon, Ephraim, Judah, Ariel or any of the other dear titles given in God's word. Neither do I deny these titles to Messianic Jews, who are now no longer lo ami, but ami by virtue of being restored to their God.

Moreover, I do not deny these titles to either old covenant Israel living today or to people who are complete disbelievers, who happen to be Jewish, whether they are living in Israel or not. They are still a people. And what people are they? Jews. Israel. Even if I myself am more a Jew by being grafted into Christ, while they are not. The answer is both/and. Not either/or.

I will take a step farther than this, lest I be misunderstood. I thank the Lord that in his great mercy that even those who reject him to this day are not without a God, even the one God of the universe, to serve in their hearts. The Lord judges the heart. He knows whatever reasons there may be for rejecting his Son. When you are told from your youth that Christians are murderers and that Jesus is a misunderstood prophet or a blasphemer who got what he deserved, whatever the story is, how culpable are you for rejecting him? Compound this by the association many have between Hitler and Christians? Then look at the Spanish Inquisition. Are Jews to be condemned to hell for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah when these great stumbling blocks are in front of them blocking the way to knowledge of the truth concerning Jesus? In my personal sense of mercy and justice I say no. And I believe God's sense of mercy and justice is infinitely greater than my own.

Therefore, I am not a judge. And in fact, I believe that God preaches to the dead. Which is why we saw some of the Jewish saints, who never saw their Messiah, still rise from the dead, coming out of the graves after the resurrection of Jesus and preaching to many in the city. These were Jews who heard the Gospel in the grave. The Lord judges the heart. His mercy is everlasting. I pray for you.

6. Other. Things get confusing when you look at the middle of a story rather than the end of a story. One day there will be a new heavens and a new earth. The light of the one city will be God himself, so there is no need for a sun. Prior to this we will enjoy a millennium of peace on the earth where Jesus rules the nations from Jerusalem. All the world will be required at that time to celebrate the feast of booths.

This time will be a post-resurrection time. So on the earth there will be many witnesses to the resurrection. The lion will lay with the lamb, not just as a figure of speech because we have a great ruler, but because when sin is removed from the world, satan being bound up, people live longer, there is peace everywhere even supernaturally as the curse of death is removed and that is just what the promised land is really like. If any lives for a shorter period than a thousand years at that time it will be for his own sin. Those already raised will be invulnerable to the corruption of sin because their life is in Christ.

Israel may fight for her borders, but it is not paradise over there. But when Jesus returns it will be paradise, as in the garden of Eden. I really look forward to that time. I will probably be in my new glorified raised body to share this wonder with you in the kingdom and to witness to all those who were unbelievers but who survived the great tribulation period, over whom Jesus will require this feast of booths.

The requirement will make great sense, because those who are born during the millennium really need to see and know and celebrate the truth. This is a protection because to other nations, Gog and Magog will rise up at the end of this millennium because of the deceit of satan after he is released. And he will even try to deceive the elect. No surprise. Didn't he already take down 1/3 of the holy angels with him to the dark side?

But you see that on the one hand there is a resurrection to everlasting life, and on the other statements such as "if anyone does not live to the age of 100 they will be thought accursed." The natural lifespan will be as in the days prior to Noah, like trees.

When we think of Israel, we should look forward to this kind of a wonderful world, rather than to the current time of struggle. And that is why I chose "other." In this world there are 24 elders, representing both church and Israel together. In this world there are 144,000 who were virgins beheaded. For they were made pure by his mercy. And they had been without their head (Christ) for a time. But in this latter time they are fully restored to their head. And they no longer have to suffer persecution. 144 is 12x12, which expresses the combination of church and Israel, not an either/or but a both/and. It expresses both multiplication, as in fruitfulness, and abundance, as in myriads. 12x12x1000.

12+12=24
12x12x100=144,000

This is Israel. Take us. Add us together. Multiply us in him like the loaves and fishes. Like the grain of wheat on the ground which dies and bears much fruit. We are one. We have one Savior. We have one life.

For blood-line Israel and the people of God there are two times when the land is a factor. But there is one Kingdom of God where Christ is head. Therefore, there is a time (one kingdom), times (two times when the land of Israel is a part of this kingdom), and half a time, which is now on its way, in which the second part of these two times is now coming.

-a time, times, and half a time.
1260 days. Entering into the Seventh and Sabbath Millennium of rest, just as Christ rested in the tomb on the seventh day when his work was finished.

This is Israel. This is the paschal feast. One people of God. One land. Looking forward to the fulfillment of all things - as the angel of death passes over all of us by the blood of the lamb.

God is hideing his face from Israel. He made a new covenant with the world. Even Paul hoped that some of his own people would be saved and turn to Christ.

Israel was cut off, like a green branch removed from it's trunk, it began to dry and wither away. This is clearly seen in the study of world history. The temple was destroyed, the people isreal were destroyed and the land Israel became no more. The prophets that the children of Israel murdered said to them that these things would happen and they didn't believe them.

There has always been a remnant that remain.

stone said:

God is hideing his face from Israel. He made a new covenant with the world. Even Paul hoped that some of his own people would be saved and turn to Christ.

Israel was cut off, like a green branch removed from it's trunk, it began to dry and wither away. This is clearly seen in the study of world history. The temple was destroyed, the people isreal were destroyed and the land Israel became no more. The prophets that the children of Israel murdered said to them that these things would happen and they didn't believe them.

There has always been a remnant that remain.

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He did make a new covenant, yes, but I hope you don't think that means He will break any old one? They will get that land one day, the remnant, that is clear. It will be the capitol of earth. Just as sure as John 3:16 is to be fulfilled for us. God is true. He cannot lie.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled in Christ our New Covenant. It was never, ever about land but rather 'faith'. Abraham knew this.

jamescarvin said:

So even if they have rejected the new covenant they are still connected by covenant - not just the old covenant, but by an unconditional covenant. So yes they are his covenant people, but the church is more his covenant people by the new covenant, as this is a better covenant, except that for both the promise is the same, the new covenant remaining available and being eventually accepted by blood-line, land owning Israel in the end.

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So God will honor His word to them, and us.

We love you. And we are really happy you got your land back!!!

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False! We love God, and His remnant of the Jews. They have NOT got their land back. Period.

but is still rejecting her Messiah. This brings the church back into the same position it was in prior to 70A.D., except there is no temple built yet. I await the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-40+. But lo, the Temple Mount is too small to build Ezekiel's temple, even if politically you could knock down the Dome of the Rock without causing World War III.

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That is an interesting point. Care to flesh it out, with specs?

In any event, to be grafted in means to be Israel. To be the people of God means to be Israel. I am a gentile, yet I am a true Jew. I am Israel. I am Jerusalem. When I pray for the church I pray for Jerusalem. When I pray for Jerusalem I pray for the church. I pray for Zion. But the two are one. So my answer is both/and rather than either/or. Yes, the land and the blood and the boundaries and the citizenship and the coming king who will rule the world from Zion, Messiah when he returns. We are one in him.

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We are one in Him, but I am not a Jew. The Jews will have physical Israel.

When we think of Israel, we should look forward to this kind of a wonderful world, rather than to the current time of struggle. And that is why I chose "other." In this world there are 24 elders, representing both church and Israel together.

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Can you support that claim? I suapect you are guessing.

In this world there are 144,000 who were virgins beheaded. For they were made pure by his mercy. And they had been without their head (Christ) for a time. But in this latter time they are fully restored to their head. And they no longer have to suffer persecution. 144 is 12x12, which expresses the combination of church and Israel, not an either/or but a both/and. It expresses both multiplication, as in fruitfulness, and abundance, as in myriads. 12x12x1000.

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Combination??? So what tribe are you from??!

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