State of the Dead Thread

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 29, 2008

How many among the Progressive SDAs, Moderate SDAs, and Former SDAs here still hold to the SDA teaching on the "state of the dead"? Has your view on this changed any? If not, why not? If so, why and how? What scriptures caused you to change your view if you changed it?

Moriah stumbled across this little tidbit and learned that Martin Zender holds the same view, or at least one very similar. Very interesting since he bes a pretty radical theologian by most folks' standards (radical GRACE, rather -- and right up Moriah's alley, as you might guess -- he also has received the Reconciliation Awareness!)

Do you believe in "a new heaven and a new earth" to come? Where did you get this information? Do you believe in a "purgatory place" for unbelievers? Where does the soul and spirit of an unbeliever go at the point of death (separation)?

Yes, I believe in a new heaven and a new earth to come. I got this information in Revelation, chapter 21. No, I do not believe in a "purgatory place" for unbelievers. Upon death (which I hope you believe to be the cessation of consciousness), the souls, bodies, and spirits of believers and unbelievers alike go to the same place: the soul returns to the unseen (Gr. "hades," Hb. "sheol," literally UN-PERCEIVED, Ps. 16:10), the body returns to the ground (Gen. 3:17-19), and the spirit returns to God (Eccl. 12:1-7). I hope you understand that there is no consciousness (that is, no soul), apart from the joining of the spirit with a body (See Gen. 2:7). If you do believe this, then you are rare, indeed. Hardly anyone believes that death is death these days, content rather to believe Satan’s first lie: "You shall not surely die."

-- from MARTIN ANSWERS THE BAPTIST MINISTER
at http://martinzender.com/Baptist_Minister_Q&A.htm

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 29, 2008

Ten views and nary a nibble? :scratch:

Even if you all don't care to enter a debate on the matter or post a long treatise, Moriah would at least be interested in knowing how many retain the SDA position on the subject and how many have taken a different view.

Pretty please?

Kolya · May 29, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Ten views and nary a nibble?

Even if you all don't care to enter a debate on the matter or post a long treatise, Moriah would at least be interested in knowing how many retain the SDA position on the subject and how many have taken a different view.

Pretty please?

OK Moriah, I'll nibble.

Yes, I have changed my views on the State of the Dead since I left the SDA's. Why? Well I don't want to go into a long debate. I have become an Eastern Orthodox Christian, which church was started by the Apostles of our Lord Jesus about 2000 years ago, and for the record, even predates the Roman Catholic Church because in 1054 A.D. the Pope had differences of opinion with the one and only true church up till that time, and decided to go his own way. So please take note that the Roman Catholic church is only just over 1000 years old. In a way, they were the first Protestants actually.

Back to the OP.

Firstly, we have to understand the two natures of Christ He was both God and man in one body. That I'm sure we can agree on. Now, when Jesus was crucified and died, his body was laid in the tomb and was quite rightly resting, as the Bible says. But what was God's Spirit, the other part of Christ's nature doing during this time? The answer is in 1 Peter 3:19,20. He was busy freeing the spirits/souls of those who had died previously and were trapped in Sheol/Gehenna. Some of those rose again at the time of Christ's Resurrection and have their glorified bodies already. That's just one part of it.

At present there is as yet no "Heaven" for the dead. When we die our souls all go into a place near the Presence of God which can be called either Paradise or Sheol, depending on your spiritual state at death. Those who love God experience God's Light as pleasant, those who chose to disobey God, experience the light as a "Torment". Jesus Himself alludes to this place in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31

Now we get to the Second Coming. There is an interesting verse in 1 Thess. 4:14 that states that at the Second Coming, "Jesus will bring with Him those who have died". Question - If the dead are in the ground, why is Jesus bringing them with Him, and where have they been? Answer - in the current Paradise, and He has to bring them back so that they can be reunited with their new glorified bodies!

That's it! You asked what I believed and I have replied with textual references. No debating please. I respect the beliefs of all who use CF to believe what they think is correct. I do not imply here that any other view on this topic is invalid. I have only stated my own belief on this matter.

StormyOne · May 29, 2008

I think that we don't have any idea of what happens when people leave this "dimension." Whatever is happening we know that no one has been able to experience it and then come back and tell us what happened.....

BibleProphecy · May 29, 2008

Eternal Life in Eternity -

In the height of heaven (Job 22:12), in the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2) God inhabits eternity (Isa.57:15) and dwells in Zion (Joel 3:21, Ps.23:6), the city of the living God (Heb.12:22).

Christ chose us before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph.1:4): and He gave those He chose eternal life (Jn.10:28-29, Jn.3:36, Jn.17:2).

Having been given eternal life, we in Christ Jesus are passed from death unto life (Jn.5:24), never to die, to live with God in Eternity (Isa.57:15), in His kingdom (Dan.7:18, Dan.7:22), an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled that does not fade away (1 Pe.1:3-4).

We are of the household of God (Eph.2:19).

Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 29, 2008

Kolya said:
At present there is as yet no "Heaven" for the dead. When we die our souls all go into a place near the Presence of God which can be called either Paradise or Sheol, depending on your spiritual state at death. Those who love God experience God's Light as pleasant, those who chose to disobey God, experience the light as a "Torment". Jesus Himself alludes to this place in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31

Now we get to the Second Coming. There is an interesting verse in 1 Thess. 4:14 that states that at the Second Coming, "Jesus will bring with Him those who have died". Question - If the dead are in the ground, why is Jesus bringing them with Him, and where have they been? Answer - in the current Paradise, and He has to bring them back so that they can be reunited with their new glorified bodies!

That's it! You asked what I believed and I have replied with textual references. No debating please. I respect the beliefs of all who use CF to believe what they think is correct. I do not imply here that any other view on this topic is invalid. I have only stated my own belief on this matter.

That bes a very interesting view of things Kolya. Thanks for sharing it.

By the way it likes your attitude at the end. Yes. As scripture states (albeit concerning an unrelated matter), "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." It thinks we do much better loving one another and getting along when we don't feel we have to be responsible for persuading each other to view everything alike unto ourselves.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 29, 2008

StormyOne said:
I think that we don't have any idea of what happens when people leave this "dimension." Whatever is happening we know that no one has been able to experience it and then come back and tell us what happened.....

Unless the NDE crowd really have been having bona fides and we just bes not listening. (Moriah does not think so, however.)

SoldierOfTheKing · May 29, 2008

I am still in agreement with the SDAs on this point. My beliefs about the state of the dead are derived from the Bible, not EGW, so I see no reason to change my position after leaving. The doctrine isn't unique to SDA anyway.

Kolya · May 30, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
That bes a very interesting view of things Kolya. Thanks for sharing it. By the way it likes your attitude at the end. Yes. As scripture states (albeit concerning an unrelated matter), "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." It thinks we do much better loving one another and getting along when we don't feel we have to be responsible for persuading each other to view everything alike unto ourselves.

Thank you Moriah! I love you as a fellow child of God. :hug:

BTW, my title says in Russian "Made in the image of God".

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 30, 2008

Very nice Kolya! Its signature line in Greek (linking to its blog) says "I exhort you by God, do not torture me."

be blessed today.

StormyOne · May 30, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Unless the NDE crowd really have been having bona fides and we just bes not listening. (Moriah does not think so, however.)

you think we aren't listening, or that they are not talking loud enough? Perhaps it is a situation like the setting in "Neverwhere" in which one's eyes must be "opened" to see that dimension?

Kolya · May 30, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Unless the NDE crowd really have been having bona fides and we just bes not listening. (Moriah does not think so, however.)

I like your thinking on this Moriah, but I do believe they have something to tell us!

.chrys. · May 30, 2008

StormyOne said:
I think that we don't have any idea of what happens when people leave this "dimension." Whatever is happening we know that no one has been able to experience it and then come back and tell us what happened.....

Another possibility is that they may be able, but choose not to.

StormyOne · May 30, 2008

ConstantWitness said:
Another possibility is that they may be able, but choose not to.

yep, that is also a possibility...

Kolya · May 31, 2008

ConstantWitness said:
Another possibility is that they may be able, but choose not to.

They have tried!

It is very interesting to read with an open mind
Ordered to Return: My Life After Dying by George G. Ritchie. Some very revealing things there that most of us can relate to.
Amazon link here

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Jun 1, 2008

StormyOne said:
you think we aren't listening, or that they are not talking loud enough? Perhaps it is a situation like the setting in "Neverwhere" in which one's eyes must be "opened" to see that dimension?

Stormy, it meant "what if" their experiences bes real and we just don't listen or take them seriously -- but then it indicated that bes not how it really sees the matter (i.e., just throwing out the "what if" for speculation's sake).

Clearer?

Mmmm Neverwhere! What a great story.

Been years, will have to read that one again.

StormyOne · Jun 1, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Stormy, it meant "what if" their experiences bes real and we just don't listen or take them seriously -- but then it indicated that bes not how it really sees the matter (i.e., just throwing out the "what if" for speculation's sake).

Clearer?

Mmmm Neverwhere! What a great story. Been years, will have to read that one again.

ahhhh ok.... well given that I believe that there are multiple dimensions and probably a great number of beings or entities inhibiting those dimensions, the only thing I will say about death is that we have not considered all the possibilities....usually...

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Jun 1, 2008

entities ... inhabiting dimensions ....

yes ....

Kolya · Jun 2, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
entities ... inhabiting dimensions ....

yes ....

Looks like we're on the same wavelength here.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Jun 2, 2008

Yeah but Moriah don't want them inhabiting Moriah any more!!
Of course, really it just does not want them controlling it or keeping it away from God. It doesn't care if they want to live inside it, it will just be their makhashanah (star-vessel of liberation) and carry them to the throne room of God with it for healing and restoration to Him.

It bes sure if they care not to go there, they will bail out on the way.

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