Eucharist required for salvation?

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Originally posted by pax
I think the part you don't understand is the fact that Christ isn't "resacrificed" at every Mass.  During the Mass the sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross is made present upon that altar.  It's the SAME EVENT that trancends all time.  He told his Apostles to "DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME." 

Where in the Bible does it say that CHrists sacrifice would be perpetuated on an altar?

How can you make a past historical event present?

Does CHrist come down from heaven upon Roman Catholic altars around the world everyday?

THe Bible says that Christ is seated upon the right hand of the Father waitin till His enemies be made His footstool.

The Bible tells us that all believers are temples for the habitation of the Spirit of CHrist. But vessels made with hands (wafers) he  dwells not in.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things" Acts 17:24-25
 
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dignitized

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its not your questions so much as your attitude, your arrogance, and where you have chosen to post these questions. You have no interest it is apparent of any type of conversation you just wanna preach at us because you have been brainwashed into believing Catholics are not Christians. And here I am, non-catholic stuck defending them because you refuse to educate yourself. I suggest you either start talking WITH people instead of AT them, or at the very least change your local or you will find yourself banned.

This is a FELLOWSHIP forum here at Christian forums, there are OTHER places to post these questions.

http://www.christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=80 THIS is the proper place for the discussions of the type you want.

BTW< I'm not hurt. I'm appalled.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by cleon
Where in the Bible does it say that CHrists sacrifice would be perpetuated on an altar?



Heb 8:1-3:

The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

Naturally Jesus is offering something.&nbsp; What is that something?&nbsp; Jesus said he would be a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek (ps 110:4, Heb 5:6, Heb 5:10, Heb 6:20,&nbsp;Heb 7:17), NOT the order of Aaron, the levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11), which constantly slaughtered lambs. Big difference =)

Melchizedek's ministry was bread and wine (Gen 14:18).&nbsp; And since Jesus is in the order of Melchizedek, Jesus is&nbsp;thus forever offering bread and wine based on Heb 8:3 and Heb 5:6.

Furthermore, Rev 5:6 reveals:&nbsp; "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain".&nbsp; Catholics teach that the Lamb is not being slain over again, but rather this indicates that Jesus is offering himself&nbsp;forever based on Heb 8:3 and Heb 5:6.&nbsp;


How can you make a past historical event present?


Perhaps the same way revelation depicts Jesus being born in Rev 12:5, and how the Lamb was supposedly slain since the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).&nbsp; Which to me means, "I have no idea' LOL! :)

Does CHrist come down from heaven upon Roman Catholic altars around the world everyday?


I shared earlier that Christ continually offers himself.&nbsp; So there's one answer.&nbsp; Plus, Paul teaches that people died when taking the Eucharist in an unworthy manner (1 Cor 11:27), since they did not discern the lord's body (1 Cor 11:29).&nbsp; So I'd say yes.&nbsp; God of course is also&nbsp;everywhere.


It's also significant to see that the presence of God came down in 2 Chr 5:14 and Ezekiel 10:4

THe Bible says that Christ is seated upon the right hand of the Father waitin till His enemies be made His footstool.


Christ has all authority (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:21), so he is ruler of both heaven and earth (Matt 28:18).&nbsp; The body of Christ is not ONLY on earth but in heaven (Eph 3:15).&nbsp; Plus, in some mysterious way, we are in the heavenly Jerusalem among our heavenly brethren (Heb 12:22-28)

The Bible tells us that all believers are temples for the habitation of the Spirit of CHrist. But vessels made with hands (wafers) he&nbsp; dwells not in. "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;&nbsp;Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things" Acts 17:24-25

Jesus said very clearly, "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink" (John 6:55).&nbsp; I take Jesus at his word. :) And wafers are not temples.&nbsp;:) I don't know any Catholic who claims that a wafer is a temple.

Just because Catholics teach that the presence of God is in the Eucharist, doesn't mean&nbsp;a wafer is&nbsp;a temple.&nbsp; The presence of God is also among brethren when they gather together (Matt 18:20).

Regardless, Jesus commands us to partake in Communion (Luke 22:19, cf. 1 Cor 11:24-25)

And ideally, all Christians should devote themselves to&nbsp;the Eucharist, just like the early church&nbsp;(Acts 2:42, 1 Cor 10:16), which was assumed to be weekly (Acts 20:7). :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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kern

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Originally posted by cleon
Kern, not quite so. The Bible says His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to pay for all my sins. Catholicism rejects this notion saying that on the RC altar Christ is&nbsp; immolated.

immolated?? I've never heard that before. Are you sure you know what that word means?


Where in the Bible does it say that CHrists sacrifice would be perpetuated on an altar?

Irrelevant. Catholicism does not practice nor claim to practice sola scriptura.


How can you make a past historical event present?

I can't, but God can. He's God.


Does CHrist come down from heaven upon Roman Catholic altars around the world everyday?

Apparently so. He doesn't have to "come down" (implying that he leaves heaven); he can be present in all the eucharist in the world and in heaven at the same time. He's Jesus.

-Chris
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by cleon
Hello Skip, What is a denomination? What is Non-Denomination? I do not find these terms in the Bible. All I know is that Christ said He would build His Church out of lively stones. It will be fitly framed together for the habitation of God by the Holy Spirit.

Well there was one baptist! (Matt 3:1) =)

LOL!

-Jason
 
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hoonbaba: Malchisedec never offered bread and wine as a sacrifice, neither did Christ. Christ offered his body and soul once, then by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. He offered one sacrifice for sins forever and sat down on the right hand of God. There is now no more offering for sin.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by cleon
"After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled ... he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost" (John 19:28-30).

I have a question...What was finished?

Definitely not the work of redemption that's for sure.&nbsp; Jesus wasn't raised yet!! (1 Cor 15:12-14)&nbsp;

Anyway, according to Catholics,&nbsp;it was the end of the&nbsp;passover - the fourth cup:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/4thCup.htm

In anycase, redemption would come at the time of the end (Heb 9:28, 1 Pet 1:5, 1 Tim 6:19, Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7, Luke 18:30, Jude 1:21, Rom 2:7, 1 John 2:25, Col 3:3-4, Luke 21:28,&nbsp;Eph 4:30, Titus 2:13-14, Rev 12:10)

God bless!

-Jason

&nbsp;
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by cleon
Kern, who is the anti-catholic? I am Pro-Catholic. I love them all.

Ahhh, "hate Catholicism, love the Catholic", eh? Well I've got news for you. The Catholic IS Catholicism; Catholicism IS the Catholic. I would be very careful with the way you criticize what you think is Catholicism. Furthermore, such posts as these are not allowed here on Christian Forums. I suggest you go visit "Rupture Ready" if you want to freely denigrate any part of Catholicism.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by cleon
hoonbaba: Malchisedec never offered bread and wine as a sacrifice, neither did Christ.
Mechizedek's ministry was bread and wine.&nbsp; Jesus's ministry therefore&nbsp;is bread and wine.&nbsp; Jesus's offering of bread and wine carries greater significance.&nbsp; Again, Revelation depicts Jesus as slain.&nbsp; But I'm not saying he's 're-sacrificed'.

&nbsp;

Christ offered his body and soul once, then by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

That's completely wrong.&nbsp; The work of Redemption wasn't complete until the second coming (Heb 9:27, 1 Pet 1:5, Rev 12:10), check out Heb 9:23-27 and compare that with Lev 16

&nbsp;

He offered one sacrifice for sins forever and sat down on the right hand of God. There is now no more offering for sin. [/B]

Agreed. Catholics aren't saying Jesus is continually resacrificed.&nbsp; That's different.

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Hoonba, we weren't redeemed with the ressurection we were redeemed with his shed blood. THe life of the flesh is in the Blood. and the payment for sin is death. Christ paid my debts if full on the cross. He redeemed me from the curse of the Law:

Galatians 3:13&nbsp; Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

1 Peter 1:18&nbsp; Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by cleon
It seems very strange to me that we do not find even one example of a Catholic Mass being conducted or even described! If CHrist established the mass and if it is central to the Christian faith as Rome claims, why is there not one example of it in the book of Acts and the NT epistles?

The book of Acts does depicts a weekly Eucharist (Acts 20:7)

I&nbsp;would recommend you read the entire book of Revelation, alongside with Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper".&nbsp; The entire book explains how Mass is depicted throughout Revelation.&nbsp;

Did you notice something about Rev 1:10?&nbsp; Lord's Day = Sunday??&nbsp; Possibly :) There's also trumpets, incense, prayers, 'new songs' sung onto God (Rev 14:3, Rev 5:9, sounds Charismatic doesn't it?).&nbsp; There's also elders (as in presbyters), people bowing, people falling prostrate (doesn't this also sound charismatic too?).&nbsp; There's also an altar (Rev 8:3-4), books opened, chalices, the gloria (Rev 15:3-4), the alleluia (Rev 19:1), holy holy holy (Rev 4:8).&nbsp; And of course the Eucharist (Rev 19:9, 17)

The list goes on and on.

Or, for a more indepth study, read&nbsp;David chilton's commentary, "Days of Vengeance".&nbsp; He's an Anglican, but his commentary depicts how the entire book of Revelation is a depiction of worship/Mass.&nbsp; And it's a great commentary too =)

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by cleon
Hoonba, we weren't redeemed with the ressurection we were redeemed with his shed blood. THe life of the flesh is in the Blood. and the payment for sin is death. Christ paid my debts if full on the cross. He redeemed me from the curse of the Law:


But our faith is useless unless Jesus was raised to live (1 Cor 15:14), which means 'it is finished' wasn't referring to the work of redemption.

god bless!

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by cleon
Hoonba: True Believers are now redeemed.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

However, the redemption of the body will have to await ressurection day.

Believers are saved (Eph 2:8), being saved (1 Cor 1:18), and they will be saved (Mark 13:13).

Heb 9:23-28 in comparison to Lev 16 makes it very clear that redemption in the OT&nbsp;came, 'when the high priest' came out of the holy place.&nbsp; The high priest could slaughter the lamb, go into the holy of holies and if the sacrifice was accepted, then the high priest would live and would 'return'.&nbsp;&nbsp;This was when the people knew that&nbsp;their&nbsp;sins were dealt with, when the sacrifice was accepted.&nbsp; If it wasn't accepted, then the people would likely pull the high priest out with a rope.

So redemption was a reality, yet not a full reality, this is 'already/not yet'.&nbsp; That explains salvation at the time of the end (1 Pet 1:5, Rev 12:10)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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