DanQ:
The round about tactics used while you try to figure out what you believe was getting old.
GW:
Due to the complex nature of theological discussion, I find it extraordinarily helpful to ask questions of others along the way to see how they see things, and to make sure our assumptions are lining up. For, in my experience, a lack of shared assumptions is the #1 roadblock to positive, useful dialogue. (And time is just too precious to waste, for all of us.)
DanQ:
1. I find it amazing that just a few posts back you said that it was hard to really know what Hymanaeus was proposing and then you here make statements of fact about what he was proposing.
GW:
No. What I was saying is that it's difficult to know *for certain* what Paul's beef is. Scripture says timing. But that info. doesn't immediately provide an answer, as you yourself showed by spending a post or two trying to figure out what exactly Paul's objection is. It takes a lot of extra reasoning to arrive at any conclusions about the Hymenaeus case.
DanQ:
Your explanation here is very detailed and specific and reaches beyond what the Scriptures actually say and you delve into specific doctrinal beliefs of these men with only reaching references to the difficulty of most early Christians to get beyond the law.
GW:
Scripture says timing is the issue, and so you had to go beyond scripture to conclude it was NOT TIMING but rather NATURE that was at question. But certainly if NATURE was in question, a simple visit to the graveyard would have sufficed to prove Hymenaeus wrong. So, it's clear to me the issue was NOT nature, but timing, as scripture explicitly states.
But then WHY timing? Based on Paul's consistent war against the Judaizers, and knowing of Paul's explicit teaching that the OT dead in Hades would not attain victory until the Temple's removal/the Parousia at AD 70, it is clear to me that Hymenaeus' claim that such occurred prior to the end of the Temple was damnable Judaizing.
DanQ:
On another note...you reference Paul's letter to the Galations. These people had their own problems and own false teachings
GW:
I can cross-reference the Judaizing heresy all over the NT letters and Acts as well. I just picked three clear statements to the Galatians that addressed the damnable aspect of Judaizing---and linked it to Hymenaeus claim that resurrection could have occurred PRIOR TO the destruction of the Temple/Parousia, a clear Judaizing move.
DanQ:
the only thing we know about Hymanaues is that he thought that the resurrection had already occured. And as I have shown, I am still, based on the evidence I see, under the opinion that the dispute was over the nature (physical versus spiritual) and not the timing and events surrounding the resurrection (~AD30 - AD70).
GW:
The problem with that is that Paul nowhere says that nature was in dispute. And in fact, read 1 Cor 15:44-49, which explicitly says "raised a spiritual body." So when you add that to 1 Cor 15:54-56, which says Paul is speaking about the dead in Hades getting victory over the Law Covenant era, and when you see that 1 Thess 4 is linked to the desecration of the Temple at 2 Thess 2, it all basically amounts to proof that Paul is speaking of the exit of the OT dead from Hades at the full end of the Old Testamental period.
Finally I state again that nearly ALL christian groups teach that the OT dead did exit that Hades some time in the first century. I'm only pinpointing WHEN that took place, precisely. And I think you need to recognize that your departure from orthodox Christianity is nothing to take lightly, especially given that it could very well be your false assumption of NATURE (something you cannot prove) or other false assumptions that leads you to a dangerous conclusion that Christ and the apostles were not divinely inspired.
.
The round about tactics used while you try to figure out what you believe was getting old.
GW:
Due to the complex nature of theological discussion, I find it extraordinarily helpful to ask questions of others along the way to see how they see things, and to make sure our assumptions are lining up. For, in my experience, a lack of shared assumptions is the #1 roadblock to positive, useful dialogue. (And time is just too precious to waste, for all of us.)
DanQ:
1. I find it amazing that just a few posts back you said that it was hard to really know what Hymanaeus was proposing and then you here make statements of fact about what he was proposing.
GW:
No. What I was saying is that it's difficult to know *for certain* what Paul's beef is. Scripture says timing. But that info. doesn't immediately provide an answer, as you yourself showed by spending a post or two trying to figure out what exactly Paul's objection is. It takes a lot of extra reasoning to arrive at any conclusions about the Hymenaeus case.
DanQ:
Your explanation here is very detailed and specific and reaches beyond what the Scriptures actually say and you delve into specific doctrinal beliefs of these men with only reaching references to the difficulty of most early Christians to get beyond the law.
GW:
Scripture says timing is the issue, and so you had to go beyond scripture to conclude it was NOT TIMING but rather NATURE that was at question. But certainly if NATURE was in question, a simple visit to the graveyard would have sufficed to prove Hymenaeus wrong. So, it's clear to me the issue was NOT nature, but timing, as scripture explicitly states.
But then WHY timing? Based on Paul's consistent war against the Judaizers, and knowing of Paul's explicit teaching that the OT dead in Hades would not attain victory until the Temple's removal/the Parousia at AD 70, it is clear to me that Hymenaeus' claim that such occurred prior to the end of the Temple was damnable Judaizing.
DanQ:
On another note...you reference Paul's letter to the Galations. These people had their own problems and own false teachings
GW:
I can cross-reference the Judaizing heresy all over the NT letters and Acts as well. I just picked three clear statements to the Galatians that addressed the damnable aspect of Judaizing---and linked it to Hymenaeus claim that resurrection could have occurred PRIOR TO the destruction of the Temple/Parousia, a clear Judaizing move.
DanQ:
the only thing we know about Hymanaues is that he thought that the resurrection had already occured. And as I have shown, I am still, based on the evidence I see, under the opinion that the dispute was over the nature (physical versus spiritual) and not the timing and events surrounding the resurrection (~AD30 - AD70).
GW:
The problem with that is that Paul nowhere says that nature was in dispute. And in fact, read 1 Cor 15:44-49, which explicitly says "raised a spiritual body." So when you add that to 1 Cor 15:54-56, which says Paul is speaking about the dead in Hades getting victory over the Law Covenant era, and when you see that 1 Thess 4 is linked to the desecration of the Temple at 2 Thess 2, it all basically amounts to proof that Paul is speaking of the exit of the OT dead from Hades at the full end of the Old Testamental period.
Finally I state again that nearly ALL christian groups teach that the OT dead did exit that Hades some time in the first century. I'm only pinpointing WHEN that took place, precisely. And I think you need to recognize that your departure from orthodox Christianity is nothing to take lightly, especially given that it could very well be your false assumption of NATURE (something you cannot prove) or other false assumptions that leads you to a dangerous conclusion that Christ and the apostles were not divinely inspired.
.
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