Can a person love without the Ten Commandments

k4c · May 21, 2008

moicherie said:
Sermon on the Mount

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The ability to love is God given one does not need to know the 10 commandments to do this. For example the cohabiting couple probably have a better and more loving relationship than the Adventist couple that are together for appearances sake. The fact that many Adventist marriages are breaking up we should be the last to talk about godless love when we cannot even keep our marriages loving.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

k4c · May 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Interesting.

Did Godly love exist during the days of Abraham? According to Deuteronomy 5 and Galatians 3:16-19, the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham. If your hypothesis is true, there must have been no Godly love prior to the life of Moses. Is that your claim?

BFA

This is why the law as given to show us that we did not have a godly love.

We can love each other but there is a standard of godly love and worship that God desires in His people that is revealed in the Ten Commandments.

k4c · May 21, 2008

JonMiller said:
If you love someone do you steal from them, lie about them, murder them?

Most people agree that the 9 of the 10 commandments are still the law. It is only those who have some issue with the law because of bad expereinces within the adventist church who seem to have an issue with this. They are set in some literal definition of law where the 10 commandments are only valid when they were given and that before it was OK to murder or something? (and after Christ)

JM

Keep in mind that the last six commandments deal with love between mankind but the first four deal with love between mankind and God.

We have no problem keeping the last six because in keeping them we can receive glory but when we keep the first four God alone receives the glory.

This is very true that if I love someone I won't steal from them, lie about them or murder them. But what if I love God? Will I have other Gods, will I use stautes in worship, will I use His name in vain, will forget the seventh day to keep it holy? I don't think so...

We must never forget the love towards God part. This is something that Satan has blinded God's people to.

k4c · May 21, 2008

VictorC said:
Adding some context:

2 John 1:4-11
4: I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5: And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6: And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

There isn't a faint hint that John is drawing attention to the ten commandments, the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses.
Instead, John tells us that His commandment is to love one another.
He recorded the initiation of this as a new commandment in John 13:34.

John also gave us bad news (above) concerning those who abide in the doctrine according to Moses, instead of Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:13-17
13: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15: But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16: Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Liberty is the antithesis of bondage, and this subject is the topic of Galatians 4. Peruse it at your leisure and see the disposition of Hagar.

Victor

The Bible gives us a prophecy that tells us how Jesus would come to magnify the law and bring honor to it.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law and make it honorable.

To magnify means to help us see it better. He brings honor to it because of religious man making it a burden and ritualistic rather than an expression of love towards God and man.

Jesus did not come to do away with the law, but rather, to show us how to keep it through love.

The commandment from the Father is to love one another but not in a hap hazard way based on my interpretation of what love is, but rather, God's interpretation of what love is.

1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

How can we love one another with a godly love without God's standard of what love is.

Love has been perverted in the world today. What man calls love, God calls an abomination.

We show true godly love towards our fellow man by keeping the last six comamdments but we show love and worship towards God by keeping the first four commandments.

The words and life of Jesus is a perfect example of this balance for He did come to magnify the law and bring honor to it.

VictorC · May 21, 2008

k4c said:
We can stop right here because Jesus was subject to law of God.

This is tantamount to admission that Jesus isn't God.
That was the intent of the expression that appeared in Galatians 4:1 when it mentioned "Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all".

Jesus also spoke on the subject of sovereignty, how the Sovereign as well as His adopted children would not be subject to a law applied to the servants in Matthew 17:24-26:

24: And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25: He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26: Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

God is the Creator of the law (Isaiah 33:22) and naturally superior to it.

k4c said:
You have to understand what it means to be not under the law. Does this mean we can now sin because we are not under the but under grace?

Let me move aside and let Paul address this attitude.

Romans 3:5-11
5: But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6: God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7: For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8: And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God...

You see, Paul encoutered this very argument before, the accusation from those who viewed his liberty apart from the law as a license to go engage in evil. Paul wasted no words to conclude that your condemnation is justified.

He also wasted no words to clarify that we're no better than those who deserve damnation. You're trying to make yourself righteous, and righteousness is 100% of God, and we are dependent on Him, having nothing fit to offer for ourselves.

k4c said:
There is a big difference between keeping the law to be made rightous before God vs keeping the law because you love God. Jesus is the end of the law for the purpose of righteousness but not for the expression of godly love.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Context repairs a multitude of errors, such as the nowhere-supported idea that you're even keeping the law of Moses or that there was another legal mandate of impressing God by your noncompliance.

Romans 10:1-13
1: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead)
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Somehow you have escaped so much of what this epistle was written to address, and missed God's propitiation made to fulfill the law -as He promised- and the conclusion: we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

As for your idea regarding the law to be a mere guidance rather than the binding requirement for justification a legal package actually is, how do you reconcile your assertion with that of Ellen White, who wrote bad theology in Desire of Ages:
The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

Ellen places this nonsense in the future from her time, making Moses the test of obedience for a people already delivered from the law (Romans 7:6-7) that God already concluded the recipients disobedient to (Roman 11:32).

k4c said:
The knife for the New Covenant is the Spirit and circumcision is of the heart.

Circumcision of the heart was an allegory for His guidance, that existed prior to the new covenant's inception, and as Deuteronomy 30:6 indicates, it wasn't done by man's obedience, but rather by God:
the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This allegorical circumcision isn't depenent on any covenant.
The only action of circumcision that one could actually perform was the physical, and it was mutilation of the flesh. It has no relation to the new covenant.

k4c said:
In the New Covenant the Ten Commandments are not done away with, but rather, God forgives us from breaking them the He write them on our heart.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Again, you haven't read the context that changes your entire conclusion, for Hebrews 8:9 specifies that what is given entrance into our hearts and minds wasn't from Sinai:
Hebrews 8:7-11
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

That law in our hearts and minds isn't the faulty covenant from Sinai - it is not the ten commandments, which was that covenant made when Israel left Egypt (Deuteronomy 4:13).
And, you can search the Scriptures from cover to cover, and never know the Author without need for instruction. This isn't a description of a written code, but of the Spirit of adoption, indwelling us.

k4c said:
We are the house if Israel through faith in Christ. We become the Israel of God, spiritual Israel.

That's Ellen speaking. Even one of the texts you cite says we are joint-heirs, which makes the root necessary for the grafted on Gentile.

Romans 11:24-25
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Don't boast about the root.
Don't forget that this root that Ellen White considered gone when she wrote that "old Jerusalem shall never be rebuilt" in 1851 is indeed back, and Bible prophecy revolves around it, waiting to be fulfilled. Then, and only then, can we look up for our redemption draws near (Luke 21:28).

Victor

k4c · May 21, 2008

VictorC said:
This is tantamount to admission that Jesus isn't God.
That was the intent of the expression that appeared in Galatians 4:1 when it mentioned "Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all".

Jesus also spoke on the subject of sovereignty, how the Sovereign as well as His adopted children would not be subject to a law applied to the servants in Matthew 17:24-26:

24: And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25: He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26: Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

God is the Creator of the law (Isaiah 33:22) and naturally superior to it.

Let me move aside and let Paul address this attitude.

Romans 3:5-11
5: But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6: God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7: For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8: And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God...

You see, Paul encoutered this very argument before, the accusation from those who viewed his liberty apart from the law as a license to go engage in evil. Paul wasted no words to conclude that your condemnation is justified.

He also wasted no words to clarify that we're no better than those who deserve damnation. You're trying to make yourself righteous, and righteousness is 100% of God, and we are dependent on Him, having nothing fit to offer for ourselves.

Context repairs a multitude of errors, such as the nowhere-supported idea that you're even keeping the law of Moses or that there was another legal mandate of impressing God by your noncompliance.

Romans 10:1-13
1: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead)
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Somehow you have escaped so much of what this epistle was written to address, and missed God's propitiation made to fulfill the law -as He promised- and the conclusion: we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

As for your idea regarding the law to be a mere guidance rather than the binding requirement for justification a legal package actually is, how do you reconcile your assertion with that of Ellen White, who wrote bad theology in Desire of Ages:
The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

Ellen places this nonsense in the future from her time, making Moses the test of obedience for a people already delivered from the law (Romans 7:6-7) that God already concluded the recipients disobedient to (Roman 11:32).

Circumcision of the heart was an allegory for His guidance, that existed prior to the new covenant's inception, and as Deuteronomy 30:6 indicates, it wasn't done by man's obedience, but rather by God:
the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This allegorical circumcision isn't depenent on any covenant.
The only action of circumcision that one could actually perform was the physical, and it was mutilation of the flesh. It has no relation to the new covenant.

Again, you haven't read the context that changes your entire conclusion, for Hebrews 8:9 specifies that what is given entrance into our hearts and minds wasn't from Sinai:
Hebrews 8:7-11
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

That law in our hearts and minds isn't the faulty covenant from Sinai - it is not the ten commandments, which was that covenant made when Israel left Egypt (Deuteronomy 4:13).
And, you can search the Scriptures from cover to cover, and never know the Author without need for instruction. This isn't a description of a written code, but of the Spirit of adoption, indwelling us.

That's Ellen speaking. Even one of the texts you cite says we are joint-heirs, which makes the root necessary for the grafted on Gentile.

Romans 11:24-25
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Don't boast about the root.
Don't forget that this root that Ellen White considered gone when she wrote that "old Jerusalem shall never be rebuilt" in 1851 is indeed back, and Bible prophecy revolves around it, waiting to be fulfilled. Then, and only then, can we look up for our redemption draws near (Luke 21:28).

Victor

The Ten Commamments is the foundation of what God wants to see in true worship and godly love.

We don't come to law to be made right under the New Covenant, but rather, we come to the law as an expression of goldy love and true worship.

Now as far as Ellen White goes, I don't read her writings and neither do I receive her as a prophet. She may have said some good things just like anyone who has taken the time to read the Bible but I don't view her as holding the office of prophet and I reject everything she has said that I can't find in the Bible.

VictorC · May 21, 2008

k4c said:
My righeousness comes from Christ and because of this He has taken the curse of the law away because of my sin. Now I am greatfull and in this greatful heart of mine I keep the law because I love God and I'm greatfull for His gift of salvation. Anything less than this is legalisim...

You are legalistic. You do not keep the law, and keeping the sabbath isn't even possible for you since no one sacrifices two lambs every sabbath on your behalf in accordance to the law's requirement in Numbers 28:9-10, a requrement of keeping the sabbath holy as specified in Exodus 20:8.
What you're doing is taking a Burger King approach to the covenants, keeping one foot in Moses and claiming to keep your other foot in Jesus.

Romans 10:3-5
3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Mixing the two doesn't work, and it isn't submission to the righeousness of God, who redeemed us from the law (Galatians 4:5).

k4c said:
We were redeemed from the curse of the law because of sin not for the law itself.

Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree''),

Context that's missing: Galatians 3:10-12

10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12: And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

k4c said:
What brought the curse of law? Sin...
The law itself is not sin.

1 Corinthians 15:56 says otherwise:
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

k4c said:
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.''

Now, why didn't you quote the previous verse?
Hmmm.

Romans 7:6-7
6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

We're delivered from the law that called us dead meat.
The same law, BTW, that contains the words "thou shalt not covet".
The ten commandments are what we have been delivered from!

k4c said:
Our relationship to the law changes because of Christ. The law becomes a joy and a delight becasue God writes them on our heart.

See part one's answer; the indwelling Spirit written into us is certainly not the law, and the passages you get this from are specific in denying the covenant of the ten commandments from Sinai entrance into us.

k4c said:
The big problem with the church today is that they misunderstand how we no longer view the law as a means to rightousness and acceptance by God, but rather, as an expression of love from a greatfull heart.

The big problem with Adventism is that it considers redemption from Moses unimportant.

Hebrews 10:28-31
28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Mixing Moses and Jesus doesn't portend a good prognosis for you.

k4c said:
The rich man asked Jesus what he must do to receive eternal life. Jesus points him to the Ten Commamdents. The made said he kept them from his youth. Jesus says okay now go and sell all that you have and help the needy. The made failed the love side of the law. How can he keep the law and not love his poor neighbor enough to help him.

Adventists have cited this passage from Matthew 22:35-40 so many times without reading it, I become weary of addressing it.

35: Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38: This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Now, why Is Jesus quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18? Neither of these are from the ten commandments!
Also, on these two are hung the dependence of the entire law.
What happens to them when they're retired in the new covenant?

No where did Jesus carry these into the new covenant. That's why He issued a new commandment to love one another in John 13:34, and loving God isn't a necessary commandment to issue once we have Him in us.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

k4c said:
I don't have much time to cover the rest but I'm going to refer you to a study I just did called, "Why is the law on stone a ministry of death?"

I can answer that right here.
Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Hence propitiation to fulfill the law, and redemption to purchase us out of it's jurisdiction.

Victor

VictorC · May 21, 2008

k4c said:
The Ten Commamments is the foundation of what God wants to see in true worship and godly love.

We don't come to law to be made right under the New Covenant, but rather, we come to the law as an expression of goldy love and true worship.

Now as far as Ellen White goes, I don't read her writings and neither do I receive her as a prophet. She may have said some good things just like anyone who has taken the time to read the Bible but I don't view her as holding the office of prophet and I reject everything she has said that I can't find in the Bible.

If you attend in a SDA church, most of what you hear has been filtered by Ellen White's theology.
That's where you got the erroneous notion that "The Ten Commamments is the foundation of what God wants to see in true worship and godly love", for this isn't to be found in the Scriptures anywhere.

I actually encourage you to read Ellen's "testimonies", as they're the biggest embaressment to Adventism published. I came from a background ignorant of Adventism, and I can't get through many pages of Desire of Ages without the need for a vomit bag.

Victor

VictorC · May 21, 2008

k4c said:
The Bible gives us a prophecy that tells us how Jesus would come to magnify the law and bring honor to it.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law and make it honorable.

To magnify means to help us see it better. He brings honor to it because of religious man making it a burden and ritualistic rather than an expression of love towards God and man.

Jesus did not come to do away with the law, but rather, to show us how to keep it through love.

The commandment from the Father is to love one another but not in a hap hazard way based on my interpretation of what love is, but rather, God's interpretation of what love is.

1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

How can we love one another with a godly love without God's standard of what love is.

Love has been perverted in the world today. What man calls love, God calls an abomination.

We show true godly love towards our fellow man by keeping the last six comamdments but we show love and worship towards God by keeping the first four commandments.

The words and life of Jesus is a perfect example of this balance for He did come to magnify the law and bring honor to it.

You're using Jesus as solely your example, without regard for what He has accomplished. Well, Jesus made atonement for our sins - do you intend to atone for your own sins? After all, Jesus said that "I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" in Matthew 5:17, and that is what He did.
He then said "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Now that the law has been fulillled, what do you think hasn't passed away?

You do not understand the love of God.
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

It sickens me when I read about "cheap grace" alluded by those not perceiving the love that God has poured out on our behalf, along with His shed blood.

The rest of your post is an admission that you haven't actually read my previous posts, since you still seem to assert that His commandments that we keep because of our love for Him is from the abolished covenant from Sinai. Hence, I have nothing further to add at this time.

Victor

Byfaithalone1 · May 21, 2008

k4c said:
This is why the law as given to show us that we did not have a godly love.

We can love each other but there is a standard of godly love and worship that God desires in His people that is revealed in the Ten Commandments.

You seem to be arguing against yourself. Do you believe that the law existed prior to Moses or not?

BFA

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 21, 2008

djconklin said:
>Married couples do not have a monopoly on love and cohabiting couples do not have a monopolu on lust......

I didn't claim either. So what is the relevance?

>There are Adventist marriages where both are Adventists yet the marriage is still messed up even our Pastors are not immune from this.

Both true, and not relevant to what I said.

Might be relevant to the overall topic of this thread though.
After all, if you bes IN LOVE, you do not NEED a RULE to tell you to abstain from adultery and fornication. You have no interest in it, not because a "rule" exists to say it bes wrong, but because you bes IN LOVE and want to be intimate only with the one you bes IN LOVE with.

Kinda goes right to the heart of the matter, don't it.

Likewise you don't need RULES telling you not to lie to them, not to steal from them, not to hate or kill them, because being IN LOVE automatically makes you have no desire to do any of those things but rather, to protect them from anyone ELSE trying to pull that crap on them.

Yep, goes right to the heart of the topic here. RULES cannot substitute for Love ... and yet Love can function just fine without rules.

k4c · May 22, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
You seem to be arguing against yourself. Do you believe that the law existed prior to Moses or not?

BFA

Were people judged with sin prior to the law being written on stone?

k4c · May 22, 2008

VictorC said:
If you attend in a SDA church, most of what you hear has been filtered by Ellen White's theology.
That's where you got the erroneous notion that "The Ten Commamments is the foundation of what God wants to see in true worship and godly love", for this isn't to be found in the Scriptures anywhere.

I actually encourage you to read Ellen's "testimonies", as they're the biggest embaressment to Adventism published. I came from a background ignorant of Adventism, and I can't get through many pages of Desire of Ages without the need for a vomit bag.

Victor

You are missing everything...

There were no burnt sacrifices done on the seventh day Sabbath. The verse you qouted in Numbers 28 is not the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, one of the many sabbaths and drink offerings that had to do with sin, which were a shadow of the life and work of Christ.

The seventh day is different from all the other sabbaths mentioned in the Old Testament. As a matter of fact, you weren't allowed to light a fire on the seventh day Sabbath, which would eliminate any burnt offerings being done.

Exodus 35:1-3 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, "These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. "You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.''

Rememeber, God calls us to love Him and love our neighbor. The Ten Commandments teach us how to do what pleases God and neighbor. The first four teach us how to love, please and worship God and the last six teach us how to love our neighbor.

I think you're missing the truth in fear that you might be accepting what Ellen White may have said. In other words, you've missed the forest in fear of the trees.

Now as far as the vomit bag, don't fill it up because if I ever read Desire of Ages, which I don't see that happening, I may need it too.

I am in the same boat with you when I comes to EGW. I think the exaltation of EGW by the SDA has caused a bitterness in the mouths of people. We should just look at her as just another person trying to understand God and if she ever comes up with something of her own :idea:

that can be found in the Bible let us receive it in the same way we would if anyone else spoke it.

Byfaithalone1 · May 22, 2008

k4c said:
Were people judged with sin prior to the law being written on stone?

Yes, sin exists outside of the context of a codified system of law. The law was not established until 430 years after Abraham, and yet Adam was aware that it was not OK to eat the fruit; Cain was aware that it was not OK to kill Abel; Abraham was aware that it wasn't OK to lie to Pharoah and Joseph was aware that it wasn't OK to sleep with Potipher's wife. Sin existed in the absence of law because the Spirit convicts men with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment.

Interestingly, we find no mention of Abraham celebrating any of the sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23. And yet the claim has been repeatedly made that at least one of these sabbaths represents a "moral law." Curious, indeed!

BFA

VictorC · May 22, 2008

k4c said:
You are missing everything...

There were no burnt sacrifices done on the seventh day Sabbath. The verse you qouted in Numbers 28 is not the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, one of the many sabbaths and drink offerings that had to do with sin, which were a shadow of the life and work of Christ.

I miss many details contained in the law, just because there is so much detail there. The more I become familiar with it, the more I find the need to flee from its clutches and trust in my Redeemer. Apparently you have not reached that same point, as you believe that you're going to comply with Israel's covenant that none of Israel ever did.

I find that when you reply, you do so without reading the passages that are involved, and you miss context often in the assertions you postulate. Many times that missing context negates the point you're trying to convey, and this is the case once again with this citation.

Numbers 28:1-10
1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2: Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savour unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season.
3: And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.
4: The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even;
5: And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.
6: It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.
7: And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
8: And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
9: And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
10: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

The burnt offerings that are made every sabbath day are contained in the passage governing the twice-daily oblations. These offerings are made every single day of the year. Not only are these offerings inclusive of the seventh-day sabbath, but any and all other sabbaths as well.

k4c said:
The seventh day is different from all the other sabbaths mentioned in the Old Testament. As a matter of fact, you weren't allowed to light a fire on the seventh day Sabbath, which would eliminate any burnt offerings being done.

Exodus 35:1-3 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, "These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. "You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.''

If I miss details, I find you missing words staring at you in the face.
The oblations don't contradict the prohibition against lighting a fire in your house. However, you have profaned the sabbath if you were to light a fire in your furnace or on your stove. You had better push your car out of the garage before you dare light a fire in any of the engine's cylinders, as well.

k4c said:
Rememeber, God calls us to love Him and love our neighbor. The Ten Commandments teach us how to do what pleases God and neighbor. The first four teach us how to love, please and worship God and the last six teach us how to love our neighbor.

As the Pharisees once noted, "this people who knoweth not the law are cursed" (John 7:49). God didn't call "us" as Gentiles to observe Israel's covenant, that Moses testified was unique to them (Deuteronomy 4:7-8) and wasn't even possessed by the generation previous to him (Deuteronomy 5:2-3). What you're saying here is that the Gentiles don't know how to love God.
Suffice to say, I frankly don't believe you. The law isn't a mere guide for good living, and God knew this as He gave Ezekiel another source of instruction prophesied in Ezekiel 36:27.

The council at Jerusalem considered the very position you posit, that the Gentiles should become observant of the law of Moses, which is reference to Israel's covenant made at Sinai (Deuteronomy 5). Peter stood up and proclaimed these words in Acts 15:7-11:

7: And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9: And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10: Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11: But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter already knew that Israel didn't comply with the law, and I have already quoted passages from Paul that assert the same thing. Peter saw that God didn't use a litmus test of the law on the Gentiles, who had never had the law. Ergo, God has accepted them, and why should we now crush them with a legal package we couldn't comply with? God doesn't care about the law, having taken it away (Hebrews 10:9), so why should we?

You are following those zealous of the law against Peter's conclusion, and the conclusion of the council.

k4c said:
I think you're missing the truth in fear that you might be accepting what Ellen White may have said. In other words, you've missed the forest in fear of the trees.

That particular forest has 613 trees in it, any of which can crush you and condemn you, and you ignore them at your own peril (which you do):
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Galatians 5:3-5
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5: For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Let me give you the bottom line: Keeping a part of the law is meaningless unless you comply with all things contained in the book of the law.
Many generations have tried before, and have failed.
You don't stand a chance, and frankly, the conclusion of being under the law is that it still leaves you guilty before God.

This is why the Gospel seems so foreign to you who hope you can keep the law.
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

k4c said:
Now as far as the vomit bag, don't fill it up because if I ever read Desire of Ages, which I don't see that happening, I may need it too.

I am in the same boat with you when I comes to EGW. I think the exaltation of EGW by the SDA has caused a bitterness in the mouths of people. We should just look at her as just another person trying to understand God and if she ever comes up with something of her own that can be found in the Bible let us receive it in the same way we would if anyone else spoke it.

Apparently you aren't familiar with the authority Adventism ascribes to Ellen White.
Ellen muttered error after error while affixing the endorsement of "I saw" and/or "my accompanying angel told/showed me" or "Jesus showed me" verbiage, a claim to divine inspiration.
Error isn't from God, and when Ellen's "I saw" statements are found to be in error, then we have this rule given in Deuteronomy 18:22:
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
You shall not believe or follow a false prophet.

Victor

Byfaithalone1 · May 22, 2008

k4c said:
There were no burnt sacrifices done on the seventh day Sabbath.

This claim is not consistent with Scripture:

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

BFA

k4c · May 22, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
This claim is not consistent with Scripture:

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

BFA

If you do your research you will find that there are many sabbaths mentioned in the Old Testament non of which is the seventh day Sabbath. These other sabbaths, which entail burnt offering for sin, drink and food offerings and so on are the shadows that pointed to the life and work of Christ. In yur research you will soon learn that these sabbaths, in which these things were done, is not the seventh day Sabbath.

k4c · May 22, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Yes, sin exists outside of the context of a codified system of law. The law was not established until 430 years after Abraham, and yet Adam was aware that it was not OK to eat the fruit; Cain was aware that it was not OK to kill Abel; Abraham was aware that it wasn't OK to lie to Pharoah and Joseph was aware that it wasn't OK to sleep with Potipher's wife. Sin existed in the absence of law because the Spirit convicts men with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment.

Interestingly, we find no mention of Abraham celebrating any of the sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23. And yet the claim has been repeatedly made that at least one of these sabbaths represents a "moral law." Curious, indeed!

BFA

When God institutes a law, it's law. Sexual relationships with family members was not sinful in the beginning but now God has established a law against it.

God wrote the Ten Commandments on stone with His own finger. They were given because people were transgressing, which tells me that people were sinning so God established His law.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus die for us and satisfied the law but He did not do away with the law.

Its like if you were speeding in a posted 25mph zone. You get stopped by the poilce and receive a $500.00 ticket. You can't pay it so you are about to go to jail when someone who loves you pays it for you. Does that do away with the speed limit sign? No way. But I can tell you that you will drive slower because of resect for the law and appreciation for what that person has done for you.

This is what we see in the cross of Christ.

In the Old Covenant, this law on stone controlled the outward man through fear but in the New Covenant it's going to control the inward man through love, which will affect the outward man's behavior.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Byfaithalone1 · May 22, 2008

When God institutes a law, it's law.

And when God fulfills a law, what then?

k4c said:
In the Old Covenant, this law on stone controlled the outward man through fear but in the New Covenant it's going to control the inward man through love, which will affect the outward man's behavior.

Notice how this statement runs contrary to 2 Corinthians 3, Romans 7:1-7 and Galatians 3-4.

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · May 22, 2008

k4c said:
If you do your research you will find that there are many sabbaths mentioned in the Old Testament non of which is the seventh day Sabbath.

I have done that research and found that SDAism picks and chooses between the sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23 without any Scriptural mandate to do so.

These other sabbaths, which entail burnt offering for sin, drink and food offerings and so on are the shadows that pointed to the life and work of Christ.

They were all shadows that pointed to the life and work of Jesus Christ. Nothing in Scripture separates the sabbaths into categories and indicates that some were shadows and some were not.

In yur research you will soon learn that these sabbaths, in which these things were done, is not the seventh day Sabbath.

I have found nothing in Scripture that would differentiate the seventh day sabbath from the other sabbaths. Further, I have provided evidence that specifically indicates that offerings were to be made on the sabbath day. I must wonder which of us is doing his homework.

BFA

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