The "Rapture" and Salvation

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ImmersionX

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I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church. I do not see any evidence in the Bible that points to this viewpoint. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows me no definitive proof of the concept, and yet my pastor teaches this to our church. I just take it in stride....but my question is this, and I have yet to get the time to discuss this with our pastor:

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

God Bless.

PS: I guess my viewpoint is of a pre-millenial return of our Lord Jesus Christ to reign for 1000 yrs on earth, then judgement!?!?! I'm honestly not convinced of a "rapture" of the church at all I guess.(as of now...doing research, keeping an open mind.)
 
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DeaconDean

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I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church. I do not see any evidence in the Bible that points to this viewpoint. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows me no definitive proof of the concept, and yet my pastor teaches this to our church. I just take it in stride....but my question is this, and I have yet to get the time to discuss this with our pastor:

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

God Bless.

PS: I guess my viewpoint is of a pre-millenial return of our Lord Jesus Christ to reign for 1000 yrs on earth, then judgement!?!?! I'm honestly not convinced of a "rapture" of the church at all I guess.(as of now...doing research, keeping an open mind.)

Tell you what, let me ask you a few simple questions first.

What is an angel?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Heh. Nice reply and not to derail the thread at all, but I've been wondering about angels recently, too.

Its not a derail because angels has a direct bearing of what proceeds next.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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ImmersionX

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I agree Tim...but I'm a bit confused...when people talke of pre-trib/post-trib/mid-trib and pre-millenial/post, etc.....do each refer to the Rapture vs the actual Glorious Return/Second Coming of our Lord repsectively?

EDIT: I was raised Roman Catholic, have been a Baptist since 1994ish....but this is the first church that I've been a member of that has actually preached this type of thing from the pulpit. My pastor preaches in an expository manner, ie one BOOK at a time, all verses. We just started the Book of the Revelation.

God Bless.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

Your endtime view does not affect your salvation at all. I would say that even a full preterist who beleives He already returned is still saved if he beleives and follows Christ.

I do think it is important though to understand the the concept of a future judgment and beleive that Revelation can be very conforting to the beleiver.
 
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nzguy

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The book of Revelation is always a difficult one to pin down and tease out all the right truth from context. I remember a Pastor coming from overseas to show his bent on it.. and it seemed to fit well with scripture.. but even he said things along the lines of 'this is the way I see it'. But yeah.. from what my church believes... it is in the pre-millineal return of Christ, with the 1000 year reign afterwards. The rapture not being of 'the church' but of every believer in the Kingdom of God on earth at that time. Cos I see church as always local with no universal aspect. In Greek- 'ecclessia'.. for me every believer living and dead is part of the Family of God.. and the Body of Christ is local bodies of churches around teh world who are independent of eachother. Like- you would never say 'the universal dog'... yet we use this term for church... in teh Greek the word for church is 'ecclessia' which is always a congregation or assembly. The language of 'Body' is figurative.. not a literal body of Christ.. but like a body of water.. a body of students.. always local, always visible.

Anyway... what this means for the rapture is that it isn't about rapturing 'the church' but individual believers.
 
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TimRout

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I agree Tim...but I'm a bit confused...when people talke of pre-trib/post-trib/mid-trib and pre-millenial/post, etc.....do each refer to the Rapture vs the actual Glorious Return/Second Coming of our Lord repsectively?

EDIT: I was raised Roman Catholic, have been a Baptist since 1994ish....but this is the first church that I've been a member of that has actually preached this type of thing from the pulpit. My pastor preaches in an expository manner, ie one BOOK at a time, all verses. We just started the Book of the Revelation.

God Bless.
Opening Remarks
I can certainly understand your concern and confusion over the varioius eschatological (end times) positions. As a premillennial dispensationalist, I am going to do my level best to be as fair and broad as I possibly can be to those brethren who may differ with me.

How is it that conservative Bible believing Christians can have such divergent views on the end times? If the Scriptures are crystal clear on this issue, as they are on so many other doctrines, why the incongruities?

Ultimately, there are some undeniable, core, essential beliefs that all born again Christians must espouse. Namely, we believe in the real, personal, bodily, glorious, immanent return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and reign over His creation. Some evangelicals like to tag on the obvious, "...in victory over sin, death, hell and Satan", but you don't have to. It's assumed.

The Stuff You Need To Believe
Real return: Jesus spoke of His return as a literal event [Matthew 24:27]. Theologians like John Shelby Spong, who take Jesus’ words with great poetic license, are violating every principle of sound biblical hermeneutics. Jesus is really coming back. He wasn’t kidding. He wasn’t speaking metaphorically.

Personal return: Jesus Himself will come. He will not return through the agency of an angel or other representative [John 14:3].

Bodily return: Jesus departed this earth in His resurrection body, and He will return in that same body [Acts 1:11]. Those who claim Christ’s return will be merely spiritual are sadly mistaken.

Glorious return: While Jesus came to suffer and die in His first advent, He will come to reign supreme at His return [Revelation 19:11-18].

Immanent return: No man knows the day or the hour of the Lord’s return [Matthew 24:36]. Nevertheless, there remains no requisite prophesy yet unfulfilled that would hold back that day. Everything that needs to happen in history to make ready the day of Christ’s return has already taken place. Thus Jesus could return at any time. He may come in a thousand years, or He may come before you finish reading this line. His return is therefore said to be immanent [Matthew 24:44].

The Four Primary Schools Of End Times Thinking
The following positions are described succinctly and (to my discredit) deficiently. Nevertheless, I will attempt to sketch an overview of each viewpoint, beginning with the most literal hermeneutic approach, and ending with the most figurative. Please keep in mind that each of these eschatological positions falls within the sphere of biblical orthodoxy, and each espouses the above essentials. Thus the differences between these positions are not related to salvific doctrine, but secondary issues of less eternal significance. Christians must unite on the essentials, but are free to debate and disagree over the secondary stuff. Each of the following positions has its weaknesses.

Dispensational Premillennialism: This position generally holds that Christ will appear in the sky at the first resurrection/rapture and retrieve from the earth all who truly belong to Him, both living and dead. Following this event, the world will experience a period of severe judgment usually referred to as the Tribulation. This Tribulation period is typically believed to be seven years in duration, though some dispensationalists have proposed other possible spans. Christ returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation and defeats the forces of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, locking the devil into a prison pit and launching the Millennium – a one thousand year reign of Christ upon this earth. Following the Millennium, Satan is released for a brief time to engage in one final battle, usually called the Battle Of Gog And Magog. After his defeat, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, the second resurrection (of the wicked) takes place, and final judgment occurs. Thereafter, this earth is done away with and replaced by a new earth, along with a new heaven. And so begins eternity future.
Hermeneutic weakness: Dispensationalists have a very difficult time proving from Scripture that the rapture and return stand at opposite ends of the Tribulation.
NOTE: Some dispensationalists believe the rapture does not take place until the middle of the Tribulation, though this position is uncommon.

Historical Premillennialism: This position generally holds that Christ will return at the end of the Tribulation. Thus, the first resurrection/rapture, and the return of Christ at Armageddon, and final judgment, are believed to be immediately successive events. The Millennium, and much of the Book of Revelation, are seen as metaphorical reflections of church history. Hence the term “historical” premillennialism.
Hermeneutic weakness: The return of the Lord Jesus Christ is immanent and utterly unpredictable. According to this view, however, one need only observe the rise of the Antichrist at the outset of the Tribulation, begin a seven year countdown, and presto – there’s Jesus.

Amillennialism: This position is broad and complex with a vast variety of opinion evident among its proponents. While acknowledging the actuality of Christ’s return as stipulated in the previous section, amillennialists generally view all eschatologically oriented passages figuratively, seeing in them a reflection of various universal truths. These truths often center on the age old struggle between good and evil, and the various trials and tribulations faced by the church over the centuries. As a rule, amillennialists believe we are now living in the Millennium – a non-specific time period of grace leading up to the return of Christ. There is no literal Tribulation. There is no literal Antichrist. And in a manner similar to historical premillennialism, the resurrection of the dead is conjoined; no distinction is made between the first resurrection of the saved, and the second resurrection of the damned.
Hermeneutic weakness: If one abandons a literal reading of Scripture in these matters, one is left asking the question, “What, then, do these passages truly mean?” The extraordinary level of disagreement among amillennial thinkers is evidence that they have yet to settle that issue. Indeed, a less-than-literal reading of Scripture always makes it difficult to present an airtight case.

Postmillennialism: This positon generally holds that the world will continue to get better and better – continue to grow in righteousness and God consciousness – continue to come more and more under the influence of Christians – until at last Christ returns. Postmillennialism is, without a doubt, the most “positive” of the eschatological camps. Like amillennialism, this approach holds that we are now living in the Millennium and that Christ will return at the end of this age. Thus the prefix “post”. In most other respects, postmillennialism is nearly identical to amillennialism.
Hermeneutic weakness: Aside from the generic problems that always plague a figurative hermeneutic process, postmillennialism has difficulty explained why the Bible seems to predict a steady deterioration leading up to the end. Thus, postmillennialists often find it challenging to reconcile their theology with the realities of life on earth in the 21st century.

Closing Thoughts
As a conservative evangelical, I recognize the worth and thoughtfulness that has gone into each of the above eschatologies. As theologians, we are often called on to answer very specific questions that God has not chosen to reveal with total clarity in His Word. We do our best to prayerfully discern these truths from Scriptural clues, but we are keenly aware that our efforts are imperfect and always incomplete. I would encourage you to wholeheartedly adopt the essential doctrine of Christ’s return as spelled out at the top of our discussion. As to which eschatological school you should affiliate with, there’s no rush to make a decision. If your Pastor is premil/pretrib, then glean from him a deep and thorough understanding of that position. Don’t be afraid to seek the counsel of those who might hold a different eschatological view. And remember, if in the end you find yourself hopelessly frustrated and confused by the whole silly thing, there remains one final, legitimate eschatology for you to consider.

Panmillennialism: It’ll all pan out in the end.


EDIT: A Note On "Preterism"

Preterism: Recently, a friend asked me if I might amend this post with a note on "Preterism", a sub-doctrine of some eschatologies. Preterism, sometimes called "Partial Preterism", is often a component of Historical Premillennial, Amillennial and Postmillennial eschatologies. In a nut shell, Preterists believe that many of the events considered to be yet future by Dispensationalists, have in fact already taken place in history. Specifically, Preterists identify such things as the Tribulation, the Antichrist, and the Day of the Lord, as having been fullfilled when Roman General Titus conquered Jerusalem in 70AD. I did not specify Preterism in my above post, since it is not, in fact, a separate eschatology unto itself.

Heremeutic Weakness: Preterism assumes that most of the prophesies contained in the Book of Revelation were fulfilled -- literally or figuratively -- at the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. However, the vast weight of conservative historical scholarship suggests the Apostle John penned Revelation around 95AD. If the Preterist assumes 95AD as the date of authorship, then the verasity of Revelation is called into question since many of its presumably predictive elements would have already taken place. On the other hand, it is exceedingly difficult for the Preterist to make a case for Revalation having been written before 70AD.

Pantelism: This view, sadly called "Full Preterism" by some, considers all biblical prophesies to have been fulfilled by 70AD, including a non-literal, non-physical return of Christ. Pantelism is a sub-doctrine of Universalism and is purely heretical.

EDIT: A Note On "Israel"

The Significance Of Israel: Dispensationalists see a clear dichotomy between God's earthly people (Israel), and God's heavenly people (the church). Consequently, most dispensational thinkers believe the nation of Israel will play a significant and unique role in end times events, and the millennial kingdom. Historical Premillennialists, Amillennialists, and Postmillennialists view the church (all saved persons everywhere) as a covenantal continuation of Old Testament Israel, such that -- for all intents and purposes -- Israel is the church.
 
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nzguy

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the church- is always a local and visible congregation with no universal aspect to it.. the universal is the Kingdom of God and the Family of God.

Look at the Greek New Testament... every time the word church is there it is ecclessia- which is always an assembly or congregation. There were many English bibles before KJV that had congregation instead of church each time, but King James being from the church of England as a universal church.. ordered the old ecclessiastical words to be replaced with the word 'church'.

So body of Christ = a local assembly of baptised believers, an ecclessia.

a good book that shows the biblical attestation of this is Real Churches or a Fog, by S.E. Anderson.

so yeah.. when the rapture comes it won't be of 'the church' but individual believers
 
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ImmersionX

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Oh don't get me wrong....I've studied Revelation for a long while now, and well...without opening a can of worms....I don't believe in a pre-trib Rapture, and see no evidence to support that idea *whinces*. But my pastor is adamant about this subject, in favor of a pretrib rapture of the church. the concept is entirely new to me, my wife is like "...oh yeah, didn't you read Left Behind...?"
...

So without further derailing of my own thread...thanks for the responses regarding my intended question. I too don't believe that adherance to a certain "type" of end times rapture is vital to salvation, but surely it can enhance one's personal faith.
I've been doing a lot of research about this subject, and it seems that it's one of those things that gets people riled up big time when brought up as a topic of discussion(not just on forums).
 
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beloved57

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I believe in the Second Coming/Glorious Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe in a "second second coming"...I personally do not believe in the dispensational view of a "pre-tribulational" rapture of the true church.

Its not a true doctine, the 2nd coming and the rapture [being caught up] will occur together..

1 thess 4:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

this is the same event as matt 24:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Its at the very end of the great tribukation period in which we are presently in..

Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???

I believe first of all, that salvation itself rest soley on the blood of christ, if christ shed his blood for you, you are saved no matter what. Now, I do believe also that those saved will be eventually given the truth of eschatological events, simply because the spirit teaches them all things..

So if you are really an elect of God, he will clear up this issue for you. I do believe your pastor is teaching a false doctrine, so take that for whats it worth to you..
 
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DeaconDean

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An angel is a supernatural being created by God to serve as an agent of revelation.

To a certain degree, yes, you are correct, but more importantly, angels are messengers.

"Angel" in Biblical Hebrew is mal'ak . Its main meaning is "messenger". It's the same name given to the prophetic book of the last of the Prophets. That book's author has no name, just the title of Messenger. He could've been the editor who gathered the Prophetic books together so his people could remember and prepare for what was to come. Some angeliphiles think Malachi is an angel, but the book's content and its presence among the Prophets make it certain that Malachi is a human messenger, a prophet. In Islam, Mohammed is called "the prophet" and "messenger of God", but is clearly not in any way an angel.

http://www.spirithome.com/angels.html

Angels are messengers first and foremost. It was an angel who appeared to Mary and told her of the choice of her as the earthly mother of Christ. It was an angel who told Joseph not to fear taking Mary as his wife, etc.

Angels are primarily messengers.

Now for my second question: being as since angels are a "created being," can angels lie?

However, in light of what I told you would come as a result of this sort of discussion, if you wish, we can continue this in private. PM me and tell me when would a good time to be on-line and I'll try my best to be here. Also, I know of a chat box we can go to talk if your interested.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Does one's belief in how the end time's are going to "play out" affect Salvation of one's soul in any shape or form? Or is it one of those teachings that isn't necessary for one's salvation, but is an important thing to understand in general for one's overall faith???
Not part of salvation, and IMHO not terribly important otherwise. Just interesting, though hard to resolve.

Though I've studied it some, I still have no idea whose interpretations of the end-times prophecies are correct. I call myself a pan-millennialist -- that is, trust in the Lord, and it will all pan out!
 
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BetaMan

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I agree. I tend to be a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mill myself, but I don't believe it effects one's salvation which way one falls in this category.

It's like, some denominations sprinkle, some dunk.
Some believe in drinking, some don't.
Some have music in church, some don't.

What effects salvation is what you do with Christ while you are here on earth!
 
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ImmersionX

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Originally Posted by ImmersionX
An angel is a supernatural being created by God to serve as an agent of revelation.

To a certain degree, yes, you are correct, but more importantly, angels are messengers.



http://www.spirithome.com/angels.html

Angels are messengers first and foremost. It was an angel who appeared to Mary and told her of the choice of her as the earthly mother of Christ. It was an angel who told Joseph not to fear taking Mary as his wife, etc.

Angels are primarily messengers.

Now for my second question: being as since angels are a "created being," can angels lie?

However, in light of what I told you would come as a result of this sort of discussion, if you wish, we can continue this in private. PM me and tell me when would a good time to be on-line and I'll try my best to be here. Also, I know of a chat box we can go to talk if your interested.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I do not mind keeping this in public....perhaps since it's been a very civil thread thus far, and in keeping with that line...we all can use this as a tool for CIVIL fellowship here.

So to answer you 2nd question:

"Can an angel lie?"

Due to the fact that Satan is a fallen angel...I would have to say that Yes, angels can lie.


Peace and God Bless.
 
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nzguy

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yah.. but Satan has a different status as being fallen (along with the droves of angels that became demons with him).. so why hasn't this happened again with other angels?

Are we getting into the realm of God's plans? Cos now that is getting to places where our knowledge becomes less than a speck of dust.
 
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