If trying to convert a Hindu...

Yes, all cultures and religions can have miracles. When i was in Greece i experienced a phenomenon that has nothing to do with religion. Theres a mountain called 'Levithra' near the town of Platamona. A short section of the road leading up to the top of the mountain defys physics, if you place a bottle on the ground it will begin to roll up the hill! A tourist put his car in neutral and instead of it rolling down the hill it slowly began creeping uphill. One person even kicked his bottle of water down the road and sure enough, it stopped and reversed course!
When spreading the Gospel you must understand the culture and find the similarities. As Christ said, 'you search the scriptures for in it you think you have life, but it is that which speaks of me'. He meant all scripture not just the OT.

JustinHesychast said:

Christ is risen! Xristos Anesti!

If you were trying to convert a Hindu, how would you do it?

If you say "God is merciful" a Hindu might be confused. Their version of God has reincarnation. You have as long as needed to get it right and become one with God. Our "version" of God gives you one chance and that's that.

If you say "Your God is bloodthirsty and lustful" a Hindu might be confused again. In the Old Testament, God required animal sacrifice. Ancient Hindu practices did as well, but nowadays in Hindu worship it is mostly grain and fruits. Our God commanded Israel to slaughter entire nations, to show no mercy, killing all women and children. The Old Testament shows drastic differences compared to our modern Christian beliefs.

If you say "The caste system is evil and smothering!" they would also look at you perplexed. Our Western mind is so set on the individual. Orthodoxy itself teaches that the freedom and liberation we Westerners so love on is really or love of our bondage to sin and death. This is a hard concept to grasp, just as the caste system is hard to grasp to our American mindset... the caste system holds all together, keeps the common good of the culture, etc.

A Hindu might also be confused about our opposition to many current scientific beliefs. Hinduism means the eternal religion. According to Hindus, it always has and always will exist. Hindus teach that there are many worlds, many universes before this, and many after this. Recently, science has discovered what Hindus have always known. This is just one universe. MANY billions or trillions of years from now, our own universe will be gone and a new one will eventually come. There have been universes before this. This is all in the ancient Hindu texts, which also describes civilizations already ancient by Ice Age times! Their Scriptures speak of times when the Earth was very frigid and icy... something again scientists have discovered.

Also, in the Hindu Scriptures, someone is given a vision of the future or some such and sees the sun expanding HUGE and the Earth becoming barren ash. This is what really happens after billions of years of a star's existence! Science just discovered this! But Hindus have always known it!

I could go on and on on that particular subject.

A Hindu might also be confused in regards to the many miracles found in all religions across the world. In Hinduism it is easy to explain... God works in all ways... all paths lead to Him/Her.

Admittedly, I have been reading up on Hinduism, and these are sort of my own questions and whatnot.

Love,
Justin

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Voistinu Voskrese!


First I'd like to comment on the "numerous universes" and that it's just a hypothesis, there is no firm proof of that. I'd rather say it's a speculation, unless I'm missing an important discovery. Everything started with a Big Bang, and the Universe is expanding. It will forever expand and will not be destroyed but will just cool off eventually when all stars will lose their light. Actually, multiple universe hypothesis does not go well with Creation, since God created the world at some set point. Multiple universes does not necessarily give you a set starting point, but you can speculate that the process is eternal.


And to comment on your question, in my view is you have to stress on the moral aspects of Orthodox beliefs. As someone wise said: "the soul in its nature is Christian". Tell them that the center of our beliefs is love, charity, kindness, self-sacrifice, humility, generocity, forgiveness, joy and peace, and they should feel the truth in their souls. Orthodoxy is spiritual, and so the only way to persuade someone is by spiritual means. Take them to the church, and they should feel the grace that fills the soul during the service, esp the Saturday Vespers service.
After extensive debate, I came to the conclusion that the only way for people to convert is through the grace of the Lord that works on us when we attend services, read the Saints' lives and counsels, and pray.

If you say "Your God is bloodthirsty and lustful" a Hindu might be confused again. In the Old Testament, God required animal sacrifice. Ancient Hindu practices did as well, but nowadays in Hindu worship it is mostly grain and fruits. Our God commanded Israel to slaughter entire nations, to show no mercy, killing all women and children. The Old Testament shows drastic differences compared to our modern Christian beliefs.

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God created everything. If he wants something destroyed, it's his to destroy. Trying to attach immorality to God is like trying to attach the guilt of murder to my pest control man who sprays the ants on our sidewalk.

How is it that the caste system works for the good of the culture? And how does the caste system explain a world outside of India. If we are all born into a caste based on our past life, what caste am I? What caste are you? The system of course was created before there was contact with the outside world, so they only had to explain their own group, not the rest of the world, but how does it make sense in light of today? Are only Indians reincarnated?

first to Justin: are you trying to convert a Hindu? or are you just curious?

Are only Indians reincarnated?

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i think there are other religions that believe in reincarnation. in the case of Hinduism, the cycle of reincarnations does end eventually, so they do beleive in some sort of heaven i guess.
i used to believe that whatever you believe would happen to you after you die, for example, Christians would go to Heaven, and Hindus would be reincarnated. then i found out that Mormons believe that they become gods after they die.

A pretty typical response by a Hindu when you get done is that they will tell you they accept Jesus. The major problem is they will accept every other religion too.

The idea that it is impossible to worship God and other gods is a most difficult thing for a Hindu to comprehend. They tend to see all religions as various revelations of the same truth.

No other name than Jesus is a huge leap for them.

And if I may comment, I haven't a clue how you can convince them of that truth and then expose them to icons.

Marv

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The caste system is one of the main things that Hindu-bashers like to bring up when attacking the Hindu way of life (it's much more than just a religion).

There are two types of “caste systems.” The one that the Vedas (the Hindu scriptures) speak of is called the varna system. Varna means “color” and it is the temperament that colors one’s mind. One chooses to follow one’s path in life based one’s own temperaments and natural propensities – this is the basis of the four-fold system and its original intention. It is based on what you do, not how you are born. The four varnas ("castes") are: Brahmanas (priests), kshatriyas (warriors and kings), vaishyas (merchants and farmers) and shudras (manual laborers). In the Hindu epic Mahabharata, King Yudhishtira was asked "What makes a brahmana: birth, learning, or conduct?" Yudhishtira correctly answered that it was good conduct that made a brahmana: neither birth nor knowledge would make someone a brahmana if they had bad conduct.

Then there is the social system followed by people of the Indian subcontinent called caste (from Portuguese casta, meaning breed), known in Indian languages as jati (birth). All people in the Indian subcontinent have a jati, regardless of religion. Even Indian Christians have a jati. This is similar to how we have in the US terms like Italian-American, Mexican-American, Indian-American, etc. The jati system is birth-based, and generally people within a given jati have been largely endogamous. Historically what has happened is that entire jatis have claimed to be part of a varna, and so the varna system also came to be regarded as birth-based in medieval Hinduism. This has also created a social hierarchy in the Indian subcontinent and had led to many problems that continue even today.

The Hindu view of heaven depends on which sect of Hinduism you follow. All Hindus believe in reincarnation, but you might not always be born on this planet. Once you have accounted for all your karma, you have achieved moksha (liberation from rebirth). Lord Krishna states in the Bhagavad-Gita (song of God) that whatever one thinks about at the hour of death, that is what birth he will take in the next life, and he encourages us to think of Him so we can attain His realm and be freed from rebirth)

Above this world is the Devalokam where the devas (see below) live. Shaivites (followers of Lord Shiva) believe that after thousands of years in the Devalokam, they will ascend to the Shivalokam (world of Shiva) where they will live with Shiva and eventually merge into Shiva, like a drop of water merging into the ocean. This seems to be similar to the Orthodox view of theosis. Vaishnavas (followers of Lord Vishnu) believe in the world of Vaikunta, the celestial abode of Lord Vishnu, and that the soul will eventually reach Vaikunta.

A pretty typical response by a Hindu when you get done is that they will tell you they accept Jesus. The major problem is they will accept every other religion too.

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Many Hindus do believe in Jesus. The Bhaivisya Purana mentions a holy man with a golden complexion and who was dressed in white. The King Himatunga approached him and asked him who he was, and the man replied "You should know that I am Isha Putra, the Son of God." And he added 'am born of a virgin.' "(Bhavishya Purana 19:23.) The Arabic name for Jesus as used in the Qur'an is Isa.

The idea that it is impossible to worship God and other gods is a most difficult thing for a Hindu to comprehend. They tend to see all religions as various revelations of the same truth.

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Hindus worship the One Supreme Lord, who manifests Himself in different forms, like the facets of a diamond or the different colours of one ray of light seen through a prism. All the Hindu deities are forms of the One Supreme Lord.

And the main problem that Hindus have with Christianity (and similarly with Islam) is that Christianity believes that Jesus Christ is the only way to God (John 14:6) and that everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to go to hell.

I would ask that the Mods take a look at this thread and do a little bit of cleanup. Marv, anyone with a proper understanding of the Scriptures, and of the Incarnation ought to have absolutely no problem with icons. God never prohibited images, He only prohibited false images. God Himself commanded the Israelites to make images to decorate the Tabernacle in order to represent Heaven. We do nothing more than this with icons. Likewise, God Himself tells Moses that the Israelites can't make an image of God because God has not been seen. Jesus Christ, being fully God and fully Man, is depictable. He ascended into Heaven taking His humanity with Him. Our Churches are decorated with the images of Heaven. We still do not depict God the Father as God the Father is not depictable, and we only depict the Holy Spirit in the forms that He took at particular points in time. And we depict the Saints because they are alive in Heaven with Christ, and because they have become partakers of the Divine Nature as we hear in St. Peter's epistle. Iconoclasm is NOT Biblical. I see no reason why this would be difficult to teach to anyone who does not have 500 years of Protestant traditions of men to sway their understanding of Scripture.

nutroll said:

I would ask that the Mods take a look at this thread and do a little bit of cleanup. Marv, anyone with a proper understanding of the Scriptures, and of the Incarnation ought to have absolutely no problem with icons. God never prohibited images, He only prohibited false images. God Himself commanded the Israelites to make images to decorate the Tabernacle in order to represent Heaven. We do nothing more than this with icons. Likewise, God Himself tells Moses that the Israelites can't make an image of God because God has not been seen. Jesus Christ, being fully God and fully Man, is depictable. He ascended into Heaven taking His humanity with Him. Our Churches are decorated with the images of Heaven. We still do not depict God the Father as God the Father is not depictable, and we only depict the Holy Spirit in the forms that He took at particular points in time. And we depict the Saints because they are alive in Heaven with Christ, and because they have become partakers of the Divine Nature as we hear in St. Peter's epistle. Iconoclasm is NOT Biblical. I see no reason why this would be difficult to teach to anyone who does not have 500 years of Protestant traditions of men to sway their understanding of Scripture.

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I was not approaching the subject from the Protestant perspective, try to put yourself in the shoes of the Hindu.

The Hindu doesn't have your understanding, so it's quite a course you would have to take them from basically accepting all sorts of false Gods to the one true God and then when they get to the icons, the automatic response of a Hindu is to look at them and say that you have said I must worship only the one God and here you are with a whole wall of Gods.

Maybe one of the Orthodox brothers who deals with Hindus on a regular basis will speak to this. I did not post to debate icons or anything other than to point out that any Orthodox doing outreach to Hindus had better think about it and have a very good solid explanation, because of what they will automatically appear to be to any Hindu a person whom I believe by definition does not have what you would call a correct understanding.

My apologies for any disruption I may have created, I did not intend it.

Marv

Responding to the OP question: My advice is, don't.

And while I agree that you should ask Hindus what they believe, you should not go to them for the Truth. Surely, they have bits and pieces, no doubt. Above all, stay away from apostates!

I would ask that Hindus respect that this is an Orthodox sub-forum, not a Hindu one. We have a debate section if you wish to challenge Orthodox teaching, but in this main sub-forum, Hindu teaching is not allowed.

BigNorsk said:

The Hindu doesn't have your understanding, so it's quite a course you would have to take them from basically accepting all sorts of false Gods to the one true God and then when they get to the icons, the automatic response of a Hindu is to look at them and say that you have said I must worship only the one God and here you are with a whole wall of Gods.

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Hindus are no strangers to icons - Hindu icons are regularly used in Hindu worship. Most Hindu homes have a home shrine with icons of the various deities that they pray to (although all the gods [Sanskrit deva, a different word than is used to refer to the One Supreme Lord] are all forms of the One Supreme Lord), much like an Orthodox Icon corner. Some Hindus will keep an oil lamp burning before their shrine the whole day, like some Orthodox Christians will. If you go to a Hindu-run Indian restaurant (at least here in Malaysia) you may well find a small shrine in the restaurant with various pictures and a lamp lit before them. In places with a large Indian population (such as Brickfields in Kuala Lumpur), you will see shops selling Hindu icons, with displays of them outside the shop.

I seriously don't think that a Hindu who walked into an Orthodox church would think that all the pictures were different gods, especially not with the knowledge that Christians are strictly monotheistic. However, some illiterate villagers from remote parts of India who have never heard of Christianity might make that mistake.

Tell them that the center of our beliefs is love, charity, kindness, self-sacrifice, humility, generocity, forgiveness, joy and peace, and they should feel the truth in their souls.

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Ditto to Hinduism. The Hindu saint Mata Amritanandamayi (Amma) said: "If it is someone's karma to suffer, then it is my dharma (duty) to help him.

aren't there some oriental orthodox churches in india?

Julina said:

aren't there some oriental orthodox churches in india?

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"The Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church (also known as the Malankara Orthodox Church, Orthodox Church of the East, Orthodox Syrian Church of the East,The Indian Orthodox Church) is an autocephalous church and a prominent member of the Oriental Orthodox Church family in Christianity, founded by St. Thomas, the Disciple of Christ in A.D. 52..."

ok

How come this thread qualifies for being in TAW and not in St. Justin's forum?