The world

Reformationist · Nov 23, 2002

Okay.  Let me start by saying that I do not have a Greek lexicon so I'm asking for some assistance.  I have often said that in certain verses the word "world" is used differently.  Not many would oppose this view.  However, there seems to be some opposition to my view that in the following verse the phrase "the world" does not mean everyone:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Then, in the following verse we are told that we are to separate ourselves from the world:

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Obviously the Romans passage isn't referring to the planet earth.  And as Christians we know that we are to not be conformed to the world of the ungodly, right?  So that's what it must be talking about.  Now, if the phrase "the world" is used to signify the world of fallen man, could it be used to specify the world of believers?  And, if that is a possibility, is there a different Greek word to differentiate between these two uses of the word "world?"  And, if you have not based your understanding of the use of the word "world" on the Greek word usage, how do you come to differentiate on your own?  Is there some contextual insight you have gleaned?

And, one last thing, how do your reconcile the belief that God loves all mankind (if you believe that) with the following:

Romans 9:13
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Thanks for your help.

God bless

Gabriel · Nov 24, 2002

I am having trouble sleeping so here I am.  A bit of greek just may put me to sleep

   I'll get back to you on this.

Shimon · Nov 24, 2002

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The Greek word for "world" in this verse is "kosmos." Here is Strong's definition:

2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}

probably from the base of 2865; TDNT - 3:868,459; n m

AV - world 186, adorning 1; 187

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,

'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,
and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,
pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause
of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47
1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

God loves us all, and desires for all of us to be saved and to follow Him. But, he leaves the choice up to us. When we think of John 3:16, we also need to keep in mind the verse at the end of the chapter:

John 3:36: Whoever trusts in the Son has eternal life. But whoever disobeys the Son will not see that life but remains subject to God's wrath.

The Greek word for "world" in Romans 12:2 is "aion" which really translates as "eon" or "age." This is Strong's definition:

165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

So, Romans 12:2 could just as accurately be translated as: do not be conformed to this age..."

Romans 9:13
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Paul is quoting from Malachi 1:2-3. What God is saying here is "Jacob I accepted, but Esau I rejected."

In order to understand what He's talking about, you have to understand the Melchizedekian line of descent. Adam was the first Priest in the line of Melchizedek. The birthright was to be passed on to Cain, but Cain did not remain faithful. He despised his birthright and killed Abel, so the birthright was passed on to Seth instead. It was passed on from generation to generation to Noah, who passed it on to his son. Shem. It continued to passed on from generaton to generation until it was passed on to Abraham. From Abraham it was passed on to Isaac. Ishmael was his first-born, but was born from a slave-woman outside the covenant of marriage. Isaac was the first-born from of the Promise, and was born of a free-woman, inside the covenant of marriage. From Isaac it was originally passed on to Esau, but Esau despised his birthright. He wanted to live the party life, and sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of stew.

God loves righteousness and hates unrighteousness. The verse from Malachi is no different than Yeshua's own words:

Luke 14:26: If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Obviously Yeshua isn't telling us to disobey the Torah commandment to "honor our mother and father" or the Torah commandment to "love our neighbor as ourselves." Rather, He is telling us that in order to follow Him, we had better to be ready to separate ourselves from the world, even from our own mother and father.

Shimon

Gabriel · Nov 24, 2002

2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}

8b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47
1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

I'll have to agree with this one Timone.  "For God so loved the believers only...."  That's what Don and I have been saying all along.   And we become believers because he loved us, thus He elected, adopted, predestined us.  Grace, not works..so forth and so on.

 

I think you're starting to get it.

 

Shimon · Nov 24, 2002

I'll have to agree with this one Timone. "For God so loved the believers only...." That's what Don and I have been saying all along. And we become believers because he loved us, thus He elected, adopted, predestined us. Grace, not works..so forth and so on.

I certainly don't believe in "predestination." That teaching contradicts Torah.

His method of salvation was pre-destined, but our acceptance of that salvation was not.

Shimon

Reformationist · Nov 24, 2002

Originally posted by Shimon
God loves us all, and desires for all of us to be saved and to follow Him. But, he leaves the choice up to us. When we think of John 3:16, we also need to keep in mind the verse at the end of the chapter:

Okay.  I'm still confused as to how you come to the conclusion that the "kosmos" here is referring to every single person.  John 3:36 certainly doesn't contextually clarify in what sense the word is used.  Definitions are always shown in the order of their commonality.  So, going by that the best conclusion we could come to that it is more probable that it's referring to one thing than another.  Is there some contextual insight that helps you here?

The Greek word for "world" in Romans 12:2 is "aion" which really translates as "eon" or "age." This is Strong's definition:

So, Romans 12:2 could just as accurately be translated as: do not be conformed to this age..."

Okay.  Thanks. 

I don't see what the rest of the post has to do with what I asked.  You seem to have come to the conclusion that John 3:16 is referring to the whole world but I do not see how.

Maybe it would help if I knew how you defined biblical love?

Thanks for your time,

God bless

Reformationist · Nov 24, 2002

Originally posted by Shimon
I certainly don't believe in "predestination." That teaching contradicts Torah.

Where? 

His method of salvation was pre-destined, but our acceptance of that salvation was not.

Shimon

When God created Shimon, did He know if he was going to be saved?  And if so, was there a possibility that what He knew could have been wrong.  In other words, if God created you knowing you would be saved, was it possible for you to not be saved?

Thanks,

God bless

brotherjim · Nov 24, 2002

Reformationist, and others,

There's a Greek - and Hebrew - lexicon avail. on-line at crosswalk.com

Reformationist · Nov 24, 2002

Originally posted by brotherjim
Reformationist, and others,

There's a Greek - and Hebrew - lexicon avail. on-line at crosswalk.com

Thanks bro!

Shimon · Nov 24, 2002

Reformationist:

Okay. I'm still confused as to how you come to the conclusion that the "kosmos" here is referring to every single person. John 3:36 certainly doesn't contextually clarify in what sense the word is used. Definitions are always shown in the order of their commonality. So, going by that the best conclusion we could come to that it is more probable that it's referring to one thing than another. Is there some contextual insight that helps you here?

When you take John 3:16 and 3:36 together, you can see that God granted a method of salvation for everybody, but that only those who choose to accept it will receive it. Those who do *not* accept His salvation, will not receive it.

I don't see what the rest of the post has to do with what I asked. You seem to have come to the conclusion that John 3:16 is referring to the whole world but I do not see how.

It *doesn't* have anything to with your original question. You asked a question about "Esau I hated" which had nothing to do with your original question, but is a separate subject altogether. I provided you with an explanation.

Where?

Right here:

Deuteronomy 30:15: See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Right there, our free-will decision is laid out for us: we can choose life and good, or death and evil. We can choose to accept His salvation and obey His commandments, or we can reject His salvation and disobey His commandments.

When God created Shimon, did He know if he was going to be saved? And if so, was there a possibility that what He knew could have been wrong. In other words, if God created you knowing you would be saved, was it possible for you to not be saved?

I believe He knows the future as well as He knows the past, so I believe He knew what my decision would be. But he left that decision up to me.

Shimon

Reformationist · Nov 24, 2002

Originally posted by Shimon
When you take John 3:16 and 3:36 together, you can see that God granted a method of salvation for everybody, but that only those who choose to accept it will receive it. Those who do *not* accept His salvation, will not receive it.

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying.  We are saved or not saved based on our accepting or rejecting of Christ's works as a propitiation for our sins.  Is that what you're saying? 

It *doesn't* have anything to with your original question. You asked a question about "Esau I hated" which had nothing to do with your original question, but is a separate subject altogether. I provided you with an explanation.

Uh.  No.  It was directly related to my original question.  John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world..." and I was asking if the word "world" meant everyone on planet earth then why does Scripture turn around and say "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."  Unless of course Esau was not part of "everyone" there seems to be a contradiction if "world" refers to "everyone." 

Right there, our free-will decision is laid out for us: we can choose life and good, or death and evil. We can choose to accept His salvation and obey His commandments, or we can reject His salvation and disobey His commandments.

Come on Shimon.  You should know better than any of us who that statement was made to.  Moses was admonishing the Israelites to remain true to their calling.  It was not an issue that was going to save, or not save them.  It was about obedience to what they knew to be the truth.  They weren't saved by their works, so "choosing life" isn't going to be what saved them.  Do you honestly believe that their actions are the basis of God saving them?  All men were the enemies of God, including the Jews.  Not a one of them was saved by "choosing life."  They chose life because they were saved.  What is it that you think separates man from his Creator?  Do you believe it's man's stubborness?  His refusal to "accept Christ?"  IT'S THE WRATH OF GOD.

I believe He knows the future as well as He knows the past, so I believe He knew what my decision would be. But he left that decision up to me.

That only aswers part of my question.  I asked if it was possible, even though God knew what you would choose, for you to decide not to accept Him apart from what He already knew?  Was your choosing of Him set in stone, or was the outcome not truly known until you chose to accept Him? 

Thanks,

God bless

Shimon · Nov 24, 2002

Reformationist:

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. We are saved or not saved based on our accepting or rejecting of Christ's works as a propitiation for our sins. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, we are saved by placing our faith in Him. His shed blood is the propitiation for our sins. He took the penalty for our transgressions upon Himself. We accept His gift of salvation by keeping His commandments. If we do not keep His commandments, then we do not have in Him and have not accepted His salvation. By disobeying His commandments, we continue to live on own way, on our own terms, and remain unwilling to submit to Him as Lord. Mankind wants to be his own god, and do things his own way. Thats what disobedience is. It is a refusal to accept His authority.

Thats not to say we wont mess up now and then. Its a heart issue. We maintain a willing and obedient heart and continue to strive toward His perfection.

Uh. No. It was directly related to my original question. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world..." and I was asking if the word "world" meant everyone on planet earth then why does Scripture turn around and say "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." Unless of course Esau was not part of "everyone" there seems to be a contradiction if "world" refers to "everyone."

But Esau rejected Him and His salvation. Esau wanted to live his life his own way, and refused to submit to Gods authority. God loves us all, even Esau, but He hates wickedness, and Esau refused to live a righteous life.

Come on Shimon. You should know better than any of us who that statement was made to.

That statement was made to *all* of us. The commandments of the Torah were not just given to the children of Israel, they were given to *everyone* who chooses to follow Him.

Malachi 3:6: For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Take it to the bank: God doesnt change. The commandments He gave then are still in effect now. Once He gives a command, it remains. Not one single commandment of the Torah has been repealed, we are still expected to obey them.

Hebrews 13:8: Yeshua HaMashiach, the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Yeshua is the same in the Old Testament as He is today, and into the future. Nothings changed.

Moses was admonishing the Israelites to remain true to their calling. It was not an issue that was going to save, or not save them.

There is no salvation without obedience. The commandments of the Torah were never for the sake of working ones way into Heaven. Get that idea out of your mind. The church teaches it, but it has no basis in truth. The people of the Old Testament were saved in the very same way that we are saved today: through faith in the Messiah, and that faith *must* be evidenced by obedience to His commandments, a willingness to submit to His authority.

Look at what John teaches us:

John 14:15: If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. Those commandments are the commandments of the Torah.

1 John 2:3: We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Just as John says, we know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments of the Torah. If we do not keep His commandments, we have not come to know Him.

1 John 2:4: The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If we say we love Him, and do not keep His commandments of the Torah, we are a liar.

1 John 3:24: Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

This is how we know that He lives in us: He gives us the Holy Spirit who gives us the willingness (the *heart*) and empowerment to obey His Torah.

1 John 5:3: This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Obeying Gods Torah is the method by which we show that we love Him. Notice that he says His commandments are not burdensome. This is exactly the same thing that Moses said himself:

Deuteronomy 30:11: Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

The commandments of the Torah are not too difficult for us and are not beyond our reach.

2 John 1:6: And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Love is walking in obedience to his commandments. Notice what John says: you have heard from the beginning. It is the same commandments which He gave us from the very beginning.

They weren't saved by their works, so "choosing life" isn't going to be what saved them.

Yes, it *is* what saved them, but it wasnt a matter of working their way into Heaven. It wasnt a matter of trying to obey the Torah perfectly, it was a *heart* issue.

Their obedience of the Torah was how they placed their faith in Him, submitting to His authority and rulership. They placed their faith in the Messiah to come, we place our faith in the Messiah that came. It is the very same method of salvation.

All men were the enemies of God, including the Jews. Not a one of them was saved by "choosing life."

Very, very untrue. Abraham, Isaaic, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, . All were saved by faith as evidenced by their obedience. They chose life and good.

That only aswers part of my question. I asked if it was possible, even though God knew what you would choose, for you to decide not to accept Him apart from what He already knew? Was your choosing of Him set in stone, or was the outcome not truly known until you chose to accept Him?

Im saying that He knew in advance what my decision would be, but did nothing to force my decision.

Shimon

Shimon · Nov 24, 2002

Reformationist:

I just thought of something that might help to clarify:

You seem to having difficulty with the concept that the Torah was never for the purpose of "working one's way into Heaven." If it was, then what was the purpose for the Temple sacrifices? If anyone, at any time, believed that they could "work" their way into Heaven through Torah-obedience, then the Temple sacrifices would be completely unnecessary.

The Temple sacrifices were for the purpose of illustrating the atoning work that the Messiah would perform. Animal sacrifices never atoned for sin, they only forward in time to illustrate Yeshua's own sacrifice through His own blood. The Torah was simply to teach us what righteous living *IS.* It is what tells us what is pleasing to God, and what isn't.

Shimon

Reformationist · Nov 25, 2002

Shimon,

Hey man.  This is a bit cyclical for me.  All you and I are doing is pushing our own side.  I'll just trust in God that whatever He Wills will happen.  I hope that God blesses you and I appreciate your contribution.

God bless

l33tace · Nov 26, 2002

If it helps Esau I have loved less "miseo"

Peace

Reformationist · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by l33tace
If it helps Esau I have loved less "miseo"

Peace

I think one of the most important things to understand when reading a passage like "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" is what "love" means in the Bible.

Biblical love is an active word.  Biblical love means to give the recipient what they most need with no regard for yourself.  For instance, it is a biblically loving action to spank your child if they are being willfully rebellious.

In the instance above, what Scripture is saying is that God gave Jacob what he most needed with no regard for Himself.  He gave to Jacob salvation and reconciliation, even though Jacob was His enemy.

Biblical hate, however, is not active.  It is passive.  In our thinking, when we think of someone hating someone else we understand that to be active.  For instance, if you hated your neighbor you key his car, or dump trash on his property, or even just think bad thoughts about them.

So, in reference to Rom 9:13, God did not consider His wrath against Jacob and gave Jacob what he most needed, i.e., salvation and reconciliation.  On the other hand, He did not give Esau what he most needed, i.e., salvation and reconciliation, and therefore He hated Esau.

The important thing to remember in the context of biblical love vs. biblical hate is that if you are not giving someone what they most need with no regard for yourself (loving them) then you are hating them.

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares his rod hates his son,
        But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

In this verse, not promptly disciplining your child is hating him because promptly disciplining him is what he most needs to learn to submit to the authority placed over him.  Biblical hate is just withholding biblical love.

God bless

Reformationist · Nov 26, 2002

Originally posted by l33tace
If it helps Esau I have loved less "miseo"

Peace

In case I was too long winded there, I'm basically saying that it doesn't mean "loved less."  It means He did not make Esau the recipient of His godly, saving grace.

God bless

The world

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