I wasnt quoting you, I summarized that as your message, post # 13 I guess.
are you saying the 70 weeks is over or not?
are you saying the 70 weeks is over or not?
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Originally posted by Debbie
jbenjesus, I understand what you are saying, but you did not say where you got the idea of a 7 year trib.I thought before that you said you were not a preterist.
I explained extensively about the idea of the 7 year trib where that idea came from. It is not mine, and not an idea I hold to.
So if you don't believe revelation has been fulfilled, please explain what part of revelation you don't think has been fulfilled?
I cannot see how you can believe revelation has not yet been fullfilled, and still maintain daniel's 70th week was fullfilled.
please explain.
The problem is that you think that Daniel's 70th week is Revelation. That's why you don't understand. I don't believe Daniel's 70th week is revelation. Although it does talk about events of Daniel, but Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Ask yourself, why Revelation starts off with, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: " and why you still think it is Daniel's 70th week. It emphatically states that this letter is the revelation of Jesus Christ on things that will shortly come to pass.
Gabriel, the angel, told Daniel that the prophecy was sealed because it would not be in his lifetime, "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end... But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. " It took close to 400-500 years for that prophecy of Daniel to be fulfilled, yet in Revelation it was said that it will shortly come to pass. If anything, worse case scenario, what was spoken of in Revelation should have taken place within 500 years of it's scribing because it was not sealed and it was said that it will shortly come to pass.
Not only that, what would shortly come to pass was "signified" to John. Another word to use is "symbolized" or make known through signs or symbols.
Not everything in Revelation is to be taken literally. Many of the words are symbols using hebrew idioms and metaphors that were used in the Old Covenant. You need to study these words or phrases used in the Old Covenant to uncover it's meanings in Revelation. If everything is to be taken literally, then maybe you believe that there is a beast that is going to rise up out of the sea with 7 heads and 10 horns? Sounds like a fictional Godzilla movie to me.
To understand Revelation you must allow scripture to interpret itself. Many of the idioms and metaphors used in Revelation are used elsewhere in the Bible and we must uncover the meaning by studying where else these metaphors were used.
For instance, the phrase "and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;" in Revelation 6:12. Some are expecting the sun to become black, which would cause the world to freeze up, and the moon to turn to blood. That's taking it literally. But if you look in the bible where this phrase had been used before, you would realize that its not to be interpreted literally but figuratively - meaning a kingdom is falling or "going down".
See Isaiah 13:1,10,13 - Babylon's fall
Ezekiel 32:7,8 - Egypt's fall
Isaiah 34:4,5 - Edom's fall
None of these are interpreted literally. They are Hebrew metaphors representing kingdom's falling.
Daniel's last prophecy was written 536 years before Christ was born.
Dan. 9:24 says that 70 weeks(490 Jewish years) remain "to finish the transgression, bring in everlasting righteousness, and seal up prophecy".
So I already see a gap from 536 years before Christ was born, & only 490 years being left to anoint Christ.
There is no gap. You seem to not have read Daniel. The 70 weeks start at the decree of Cyrus to build the temple. Not when it was given to Daniel. Moreso, the historical dates you are using are inept and in error. We cannot fully trust and depend on historical dates, especially in the BC era. What we can do is rely completely on the scriptures which say that from the decree to build the temple to Messiah is 483 years (7 weeks + 62 weeks). Then in the midst (1/2) of the last week He is cut off (crucified) and the last 3 1/2 years just runs out, ending with the stoning of Stephen.
Do you think all prophecy has been sealed up? Including the other chptrs of Daniel?
I believe Daniel's prophecy in history has been completed. I'm not looking for anything in the future to come to pass from Daniel, other than spiritual principles which can be gleaned and learned from it.
"to finish the transgression" of Israel is referring to Israel's history. OBviously, Israel's history is still unfolding today. Are we living today in "everlasting righteousness"?
If you have obtained the everlasting righteousness of Jesus Christ, then yes.
The next verse,25, says that 69 weeks are used up "unto the Messiah".
Verse 26 refers to the sanctuary being destroyed. Are you sure the SANCTUARY was destroyed on 70 AD? WAs there a flood?
Why do you thing it's supposed to be destroyed with a flood of water???
Verse 27 says a 7year(1week) covenant was made with Israel, and broken 3.5 years into the contract. Did this happen in 70ad?
I already said this but for your sake I'll say it again. It says "he" will confirm a covenant with "many" for one week. This "he" is not antichrist. He's not talked about once in the whole chapter. Your cutting and pasting pieces of scripture together. You need to read it in its context, right where it's at. It also doesn't say Israel. "He" will confirm a covenant with "many" is what it says, paraphrased. The subject of the 4 verses is Messiah. So, Messiah will confirm a covenant (the New Covenant in His blood) with many (Jews and Gentiles). I already spoke of this before.
Verse 27 also says"even until the consummation". SO the weddiing feast of the Lamb(2nd coming) is not consummation?
How did you connect these two???
verse 25 states 69 weeks are used up. Verse 27 states one week remains in Israel's history & it begins with a 1 week(7 year) contract.(dan.8:13 & 11).
I have to say this again: Your cutting and pasting pieces of scripture together. You need to read it in its context, right where it's at.
WHat part of rev has not yet been fullfilled?
I will only say this. I don't believe "all" of revelation has been fulfilled. So far I still await and expect:
The coming (parousia) of Christ
The day of the Lord
The resurrection of the dead
The rapture of the living
The (final) judgment
The end of history
All six of Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled by the cross of Christ.
I hope this helps."How Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9:24
Let's look at Daniel 9:24 in greater detail.
Daniel 9:24
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Why are 70 weeks determined? To do these things:
1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy
1. Finish the Transgression.
Recall that to begin with, the Jews were in captivity for 490 years because of not honoring the Sabbath - they didn't give the land rest every seven years. The 70 years of capitivity in Babylon gave the land its rest. This is in 2 Chronicles 36- it's a whole lot of verses. Then God gives them another 490 years - maybe this time is their last chance.
2. Make an End of Sins.
Though we still sin, if we are saved, then there is no condemnation for those sins.
Romans 8:1
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
3. Make Reconciliation for Iniquity.
Only Jesus could do this. He came to make reconciliation for us.
Hebrews 2:17
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
4. Bring in Everlasting Righteousness
Jesus Himself said that He fulfilled all righteousness.
Matthew 3:13-15
Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
5. Seal up the Vision and Prophecy
Contrary to what most teach about this passage, "seal up" doesn't mean to hide it from men's understanding until the last days. From Strong's, seal is [2856] chatham: meaning to close up, make an end of, stop. So Jesus made the end of this vision and prophecy. It doesn't say "all visions and prophecies" for you naysayers. It says "the vision..."
6. Anoint the Most Holy
Again, Jesus was anointed at His baptism in Mark 1. He is the Most Holy.
Daniel 9:25
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
I've already showed in the first post, why I believe, and the math supports it, that Jesus is whom this is referring to. The big question comes from the next verse:
Daniel 9:26
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Who is The Prince?
A big argument is over who this prince is. In the 1769 KJV, the first prince is capitalized - Prince and the second is not. Unfortunately, not knowing the Hebrew, folks err and make a doctrine based on the translators' take. What they may not know is that the 1611 KJV had both of them as "Prince." It was changed later. The YLT (a really good word-for-word translation of the Textus Receptus/Masoretic) has this:
Daniel 9:25-26
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Daniel 9:25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
Clearly, in the word for word, he equates Messiah the Prince with the Prince that shall come.
In the KJV, we find that "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city." Does the prince destroy the city? No, the people of the prince. In 70 AD, the people of the prince rebelled and went against the Romans. What happened? The city was destroyed. Did they do it directly? Well, no one knows exactly who torched the temple. But, either way, the actions of the Jewish people in Jerusalem brought down the fury of the Roman armies. Whether the Jews burned it or the Romans did is rather a moot point.
Daniel 9:26 - Another Look
Look at this from Dan 9:26.
"...and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
Desolations are determined to the end of the war. At the end, when Jerusalem was destroyed is when the desolation ended.
From the YLT....
Daniel 9:27
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'
From the KJV...
Daniel 9:27
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.
From the first post, Jesus' ministry (most agree with this) was seven years...one week. "Confirm" as shown by the YLT, means "strengthen." This says "Covenant." Not treaty. Covenant. What covenant?
Look at Daniel 9 again...
Daniel 9:3-4
Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Note that Daniel does not say to all Israel. He says to them that love him and that keep his commandments. So again, what covenant? It's a covenant that Jesus merely strengthened. It is the covenant that He gave to Abraham.
Genesis 22:18
Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
How would all nations be blessed through Abraham's seed? Through Jesus the Christ. The father of John the Baptist, Zacharias, gave this prophecy:
Luke 1:72-75
Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luke 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luke 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luke 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Jesus Strengthened the Covenant
Jesus strengthened the covenant that God had already made. Those believers in the Old Testament believed that God would do as He promised and provide His salvation, though they knew not the name of Jesus. Those who have believed since Jesus cmbelieved that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection paid the price for their (our) sins. It has always been the same. God has not changed. His mercy and grace has been extended in the same way, most folks, however, saw the physical or fleshly side and not the spiritual side and I must admit that I find it difficult somedays to see the spiritual too. I know we all do. The flesh wars against the Spirit all the time. Jesus confirmed the covenant that God had made with Abraham. In thee shall all nations be blessed. See also Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, and Luke 22:20.
He shall cause the sacrifice to cease...
In Daniel 9, we find that "he shall cause the sacrifice to cease." If this were the antichrist, as is taught by dispensationalists, then he has already been here because there has been no sacrifice in the temple for a long time. Not since 70 AD. Instead look at what Jesus' death meant. It meant that the covering of sins that the sacrifices did was no longer needed. He took all our sins upon Himself and once we accept that free gift, then ours sins are removed as far as east is from west.
The sacrifice ceased literally in 70 AD, but the need ended at Calvary.
[A]nd for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Indeed, the city was made desolate. The Romans overran the city, destroying all that was in their wake. This has been done. History proves it.
The goat was figurative representation of the kingdom of Greece (the third kingdom). The great horn that was broken was representative of the king of Greece, more specifically, Alexander the Great.Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
This "little horn" in history is know as Antiochus Epiphanes IV. He caused the daily sacrifice to cease in the temple. He desescrated the temple by entering it and sacrificing swine on the altar and erecting a statue of Zeus. He told the Jews not to worship their own God, but his. He also decreed that they should not sacrifice anymore. This caused the Jewish uprising known as the Maccabean revolt.And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.