Hey Creationists!

thaumaturgy · May 3, 2008

You know, Creationists and their co-religionists who would denigrate science, whenever I read your posts and I see you sitting in the cheap seats lobbing attacks on science you have never studied it makes me proud.

Proud of the November I spent in the cold midwest without electricity because the research grant I was counting on didn't come through so I had my electricity shut off for a couple weeks. Yet I still made it into the research lab every day, after showering in cold water in the dark.

I'm proud of the times when I worried obsessively over being evicted because I couldn't pay my rent on time because I was making a pittance while I held down two "jobs"; one as a research student, and one teaching intro geology to the mewling spawn of people like you.

I'm proud of the time when I ate nothing but ramen for months on end so I could afford the coal petrology textbook.

I'm proud of foregoing new shoes and walked holes in the bottom of my tennis shoes, so I could afford a new calculator so I could complete my Physical Chemistry class. (To be honest, those were my "penitent shoes" and after a while I wore them more for fun than necessity.)

I'm proud of the times I crawled into the lab to do my experiments in silence while feeling sick as a dog from the stomach flu.

I'm proud of the years I spent making just about minimum wage so I could hone my research skills and learn just a little more.

I'm proud of the five years I spent as a postdoc. Part of that time enduring life as little more than a better paid grad student.

I'm proud of the fact that I put in more effort into college than most of you did in elementary, junior high and high school. Oh yeah, and I also did all those educational things you did, but I went beyond.

Sacrifice? Yes. That's why I wouldn't go up to John McCain and tell him if he were a better pilot maybe he could raise his arms over his head today.

But the fine "Christian Creationists" and the fine "Christians" who would tell us how science should be done without bothering to get the requisite education, just tend to annoy.

Remember, my friends, you may think we just woke up one day with all these college degrees. Or that someone just "gave" them to us. But that is your ignorance.

Your commentary from the "cheap seats" and your cat-calls at the players on the field don't help the game. The professionals would be glad to have your input. But you have to approach it with the respect due to all of us on here who have done significant work to get our degrees and who spend our lives in pursuit of science.

I'd personally be glad to discuss science with anyone (and I have proven time and again that I will), but what I will not do is endure the constant intimations that scientists are simply "wrong" from people who get their "science" from a cursory examination of biased resources and some personal hubris that makes them think they are just as capable as someone who has given the time and effort we scientists have.

Washington · May 3, 2008

Very nice post. It was sobering to read: putting the world of scientific endeavor in perspective and contrasting its serious nature with the religious playground of the creationist. However, I fear that any respect you may like to see tendered toward yourself and other professionals by creationists will be a long time in coming. Creationists simply don't respect the work of science when it comes to matters that oppose their beliefs, so it's kind of a guilt by association: your ideas don't deserve respect so neither should you. Hardly fair, but then fairness was never a part of bigotry.

FishFace · May 3, 2008

Science: putting in the effort to make everyone's lives better for 500 years.

dad · May 3, 2008

thaumaturgy said:
You know, Creationists and their co-religionists who would denigrate science, whenever I read your posts and I see you sitting in the cheap seats lobbing attacks on science you have never studied it makes me proud.

Proud of the November I spent in the cold midwest without electricity because the research grant I was counting on didn't come through so I had my electricity shut off for a couple weeks. Yet I still made it into the research lab every day, after showering in cold water in the dark.

I'm proud of the times when I worried obsessively over being evicted because I couldn't pay my rent on time because I was making a pittance while I held down two "jobs"; one as a research student, and one teaching intro geology to the mewling spawn of people like you.

I'm proud of the time when I ate nothing but ramen for months on end so I could afford the coal petrology textbook.

I'm proud of foregoing new shoes and walked holes in the bottom of my tennis shoes, so I could afford a new calculator so I could complete my Physical Chemistry class. (To be honest, those were my "penitent shoes" and after a while I wore them more for fun than necessity.)

I'm proud of the times I crawled into the lab to do my experiments in silence while feeling sick as a dog from the stomach flu.

I'm proud of the years I spent making just about minimum wage so I could hone my research skills and learn just a little more.

I'm proud of the five years I spent as a postdoc. Part of that time enduring life as little more than a better paid grad student.

I'm proud of the fact that I put in more effort into college than most of you did in elementary, junior high and high school. Oh yeah, and I also did all those educational things you did, but I went beyond.

Sacrifice? Yes. That's why I wouldn't go up to John McCain and tell him if he were a better pilot maybe he could raise his arms over his head today.

But the fine "Christian Creationists" and the fine "Christians" who would tell us how science should be done without bothering to get the requisite education, just tend to annoy.

Remember, my friends, you may think we just woke up one day with all these college degrees. Or that someone just "gave" them to us. But that is your ignorance.

Your commentary from the "cheap seats" and your cat-calls at the players on the field don't help the game. The professionals would be glad to have your input. But you have to approach it with the respect due to all of us on here who have done significant work to get our degrees and who spend our lives in pursuit of science.

I'd personally be glad to discuss science with anyone (and I have proven time and again that I will), but what I will not do is endure the constant intimations that scientists are simply "wrong" from people who get their "science" from a cursory examination of biased resources and some personal hubris that makes them think they are just as capable as someone who has given the time and effort we scientists have.

The cheap seats are the fraudulent so called science seats, where they pretend to know the future and past.
Missionaries also suffered, and had deprivations, not only for their selfish selves, but for others. Not for some job, but for salvation souls, and bodies of mankind.

Hebrews 11: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy- they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

You are not the only one on this planet that paid some sort of price for the treasures they sought. Get over it.

Your degrees are as worthy as toilet tissue in the big picture, especially if they deal in the unknown past or future, rather than the present.

Building computers, and bridges for money is all well and good, but many are used to carry troops, or weapons over to the other side to kill people anyhow, or some other wicked purpose.

Let's see you walk on water, calm the stormy seas, raise the dead, and give sight to the blind, and give men an everlasting body, and stop the sun, and stars from fizzling out one day?? How about even saving one soul of a man, and delivering someone from a state of death and sin??

No, men of this world's puny, dangerous knowledge usually have a degree to insure good bucks, (they think) for themselves. Also, I found that most highly educated folks I have ever met have what I would call no morals! Usually they embrace homosexuality, and abortion, for example, as perfectly fine. Par for the godless education course, really.

The only science you can try to tell us how it should be done, has nothing to do with the eternal realities, just this temporal sandbox. Play quietly.

Braunwyn · May 3, 2008

To be fair thaumaturgy, what can any scientist expect from visiting forums. I don't think the back and forth should be taken personally. It's entertaining to argue and read about creationism, movies like expelled, mythology, etc but does it really spill over into the day-to-day?

AV1611VET · May 3, 2008

dad said:
Missionaries also suffered, and had deprivations, not only for their selfish selves, but for others. Not for some job, but for salvation souls, and bodies of mankind.

Let me add some of Paul's testimony to this too, bro ---

[bible]2 Corinthians 11:22-33[/bible]

Also --- did you mean to say selfless here?

Washington · May 3, 2008

AV1611VET said:
Let me add some of Paul's testimony to this too, bro ---

[bible]2 Corinthians 11:22-33[/bible]

Also --- did you mean to say selfless here?

I think he meant, "shellfish."

Braunwyn · May 3, 2008

Washington said:
I think he meant, "shellfish."

lol

Nathan Poe · May 3, 2008

dad said:
The cheap seats are the fraudulent so called science seats, where they pretend to know the future and past.

You don't even pretend to make a point anymore, do you?

Missionaries also suffered, and had deprivations, not only for their selfish selves, but for others. Not for some job, but for salvation souls, and bodies of mankind.

Oh please -- show me a missionary who wasn't trying to score brownie points with their God, and I'll show you a liar.

thaumaturgy · May 3, 2008

dad said:
The cheap seats are the fraudulent so called science seats, where they pretend to know the future and past.
Missionaries also suffered, and had deprivations, not only for their selfish selves, but for others. Not for some job, but for salvation souls, and bodies of mankind.

What did you sacrifice for you "knowledge", Dad? Are you taking the mantle of the missionaries? Or are you just another member of the "peanut gallery"?

I've never seen you say more than 15 words before I found myself repulsed by you. Is that your "witness"?

You are not the only one on this planet that paid some sort of price for the treasures they sought. Get over it.

Then be a man, and tell us what your field is so that I might heap the level of scorn on it that you constantly do to science.

No, I suspect you are afraid that you couldn't handle the treatment you dish out.

I suspect you are weak.

Your degrees are as worthy as toilet tissue in the big picture, especially if they deal in the unknown past or future, rather than the present.

Let's rewind this, Dad. Tell me how this feels to you:

"Your faith is as worthy as toilet tissue" (and let me add, that the faith you present appears to be little more than a skidmark.

Did you like that? I suspect not. I suspect you'll get all annoyed now.

Because you are incapable of understanding this simple phrase from the book you so dearly love:

[BIBLE]Luke 6:31[/BIBLE]

Let's see you walk on water, calm the stormy seas,

Maybe if you did that I'd care. But you can't. So you wrap yourself in the same robes as your savior and you level charges at others. You are a buffoon whose faith is "worthy as toilet tissue".

Also, I found that most highly educated folks I have ever met have what I would call no morals!

Dad, I'm honest. I obsess over what I type on this board. I actually am afraid I will say something that is untrue. If you look at just about any of my postings you'll note they are almost always "editted". That's because I've posted something, gone on to do some real work and while doing that, suddenly was afraid I might have misspoke or said something I couldn't back up.

That's called honesty. That's also called humility. I know my limits. Indeed on this board I have made more mea culpas than any 15 of you so-called "Christians" that I've ever seen.

Ha. Look back through my posts. You'll see that I was among the first to take my lumps when I was wrong.

Have you?

Usually they embrace homosexuality, and abortion, for example, as perfectly fine. Par for the godless education course, really.

If God-fullness leads to the kind of bile you spew and the kind of ignorance you and AV1611VET cling to so dearly I should think I would avoid it like the plague.

Thankfully for the faith, I know real christians who are decent people that I like and respect.

So I know you don't represent your faith. You represent a tiny minority of vocal sub-literates.

Play quietly.

I would recommend you take your own advice. You are among the most egregious examples of obnoxiousness and insult.

thaumaturgy · May 3, 2008

What I think some of you (dad) are missing is that I have no dispespect for people like missionaries who sacrifice to do good.

As I said in the OP I wouldn't walk up to John McCain and tell him if he'd been a better pilot he'd be able to raise his arms over his head.

But what I see from many Creationists (and their anti-science bretheren) is that they walk up to scientists and say "Your sacrifice to learn science is meaningless, and I am going to tell you how science is wrong."

This is an equivalence that annoys me.

If you have a valid point to debate, debate it. If you have supporting evidence, present it.

But don't, for one second, think waving your hands around, hiding your actual knowledge, and using a few technical terms you might have accidentally picked up reading a "Scientific American" in the airport, makes your "guesses" equivalent to those of us who've dedicated decades of our lives to this.

I suspect AV1611VET is some sort of military veteran. I wouldn't dream of telling him that whatever he did in the military was a scam and a sham and I hold military service to a higher "standard" than whatever it is he did.

I wouldn't dream of telling Dad that he's mopping the floor all wrong there.

I don't have the skills that others do. But again, I learned long ago that my own "peanut gallery" comments are exactly meaningless to those who are on the field.

dad · May 3, 2008

AV1611VET said:
Let me add some of Paul's testimony to this too, bro ---

[bible]2 Corinthians 11:22-33[/bible]

Also --- did you mean to say selfless here?

Well, actually that was just bad formation of a sentence. The thought was to contrast the Christians and their sacrifices, with the selfish getting of a degree for personal gain. In other words, in large measure, the motive for getting a higher education is often pretty selfish.

Braunwyn · May 3, 2008

thaumaturgy said:
I wouldn't dream of telling Dad that he's mopping the floor all wrong there.

I wish there were career icons. I'm always curious about members professions on forums.

trivista · May 3, 2008

dad said:
Well, actually that was just bad formation of a sentence. The thought was to contrast the Christians and their sacrifices, with the selfish getting of a degree for personal gain. In other words, in large measure, the motive for getting a higher education is often pretty selfish.

What sacrifices?

dad · May 3, 2008

thaumaturgy said:
What I think some of you (dad) are missing is that I have no dispespect for people like missionaries who sacrifice to do good.

As I said in the OP I wouldn't walk up to John McCain and tell him if he'd been a better pilot he'd be able to raise his arms over his head.

But what I see from many Creationists (and their anti-science bretheren) is that they walk up to scientists and say "Your sacrifice to learn science is meaningless, and I am going to tell you how science is wrong."

This is an equivalence that annoys me.

Too bad, if you didn't walk up to God, and say He was wrong, annoying me, I wouldn't be annoying you. It is a reaction, not an aggression.

If you have a valid point to debate, debate it. If you have supporting evidence, present it.

But don't, for one second, think waving your hands around, hiding your actual knowledge, and using a few technical terms you might have accidentally picked up reading a "Scientific American" in the airport, makes your "guesses" equivalent to those of us who've dedicated decades of our lives to this.

Science HAS no knowledge of heaven, the future, or the state of the past universe. Do not try to hide that.

I suspect AV1611VET is some sort of military veteran. I wouldn't dream of telling him that whatever he did in the military was a scam and a sham and I hold military service to a higher "standard" than whatever it is he did.

I wouldn't dream of telling Dad that he's mopping the floor all wrong there.

Good, spare yourself the humiliation of the inevitable overwhelming response.

I don't have the skills that others do. But again, I learned long ago that my own "peanut gallery" comments are exactly meaningless to those who are on the field.

I can agree with you there. Your peanut gallery stuff is of limited import. Long as you keep it in that perspective, we get along fine. Cross the Almighty with it, and I have a problem.

Braunwyn · May 3, 2008

dad said:
Well, actually that was just bad formation of a sentence. The thought was to contrast the Christians and their sacrifices, with the selfish getting of a degree for personal gain. In other words, in large measure, the motive for getting a higher education is often pretty selfish.

I think it depends on the profession. Most business majors I've known didn't get into their line of work due to altruism. At the same time, wanting to cure cancer/combat disease, for example, requires an education. A commitment most aren't willing to make. Lucky for our species that some are willing.

dad · May 3, 2008

trivista said:
What sacrifices?

How about Mother Teresa living for years in pretty well the poorest place on earth, trying to help people? How about the martyrs? How about many, if not most charities, and do gooder endeavors on earth? How about their education, would many not sacrifice as much as Mat?

Deadbolt · May 3, 2008

Wow, and here I thought with an OP like that we'd see some actual respect.
I really thought that.
Creationists ARE scum.

Deadbolt · May 3, 2008

Mother Theresa, eh?!?!
Don't make me laugh, She's got to be the most overrated person in the history of anything. Seriously. Or have you not heard of her Dreary "House or the Dying" in Calcutta? Or how about all that money she raised? It went to build Nunneries.
And yet for all this, she can do no wrong in the eyes of millions. What a crock.

dad · May 3, 2008

Braunwyn said:
I think it depends on the profession. Most business majors I've known didn't get into their line of work due to altruism. At the same time, wanting to cure cancer/combat disease, for example, requires an education. A commitment most aren't willing to make. Lucky for our species that some are willing.

Yes, many spend all the years in school just for the good of mankind, living a selfless life in the service to humanity. Their salary is donated to the poor, etc. But apparently most are out to get all they can, and that is merely a means to get more.
I have a cure for cancer, and all diseases, by the way. Everyone can afford it, and you don't need to waste your life in godless education to get it. Accepting God's gift of eternal life, comes with a new eternal body, that never gets sick or dies. Top that.

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