Mystery Bablyon...

LastDazed · Oct 12, 2002

Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
P/N/B/ here:
At least you are honest in your admission of using others work to establish your doctrine. And I recognize that Catholic is perhaps the largest 'CULT' on earth. Judging her by what Protestants call cults, additional books for doctrine. Such as Mormans, Jehovah Wittnesses, Adventists as some have discribed cults to be? But for me & my house, we will let the Master's total Word do that for us!
******

Interesting words from someone who demonstrates 100% trust in the Catholic Church to tell him which 66 books are indeed the only "inspired" writing that belong in the "Bible". 

Sola scriptura is an oxymoron, for you are, by default, automatically trusting in an authority outside of scripture (The Historic Catholic Chuirch) to tell you what books are the ONLY books that belong in scripture, for scripture alone does not provide that information. 

 

Patmosman_sga · Oct 12, 2002

The Catholic Church recognizes several additional books in the Old Testament (what Protestants refer to as "The Apocrypha"). But that does not make it a cult. It is an open question as to whether the Catholics "added" those books or the Protestants "subtracted" them.

But, of course, John's "warning" in Revelation 22:18 has nothing to do with the number of books in the canon. In fact, contextually speaking, it only refers to Revelation itself. The decision to "close the canon" was made centuries ago by an ecumenical council. Since Protestants (adherents of "Sola Scriptura") do not recognize the decisions of the ecumenical councils as authoritative, then they really have no moral, theological, legal or historical justification for objecting to any additions to or subtractions from the canon. Those of us who acknowledge the authority of the councils, however, have the full authority of the Church Universal behind us.

Frank · Oct 12, 2002

Originally posted by Wolseley
Well, what you have to keep in mind, Frank, is that from the Catholic perspective, the Bible is NOT the ultimate source of revelation. 

And therein lies the problem...

Pastor N.B. · Oct 12, 2002

Cults? Catholic's catechism is a sumery [or test] of religous doctrine.

Truth? 1 Tim. 2:5 in my Douay version.. "FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND [ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, himself man, CHRIST JESUS]."

Yet, where in scripture does this other [additional] stuff come from? (other than Rev. 3:9 perhaps?)
"Pope John Paul 11...on Tuesday told Roman Catholics to seek forgiveness through the church and not directly from God. In a major document on the need for confession of sin, the pontiff laid down guidlines for the world's nearly 800 million Roman Catholics on the purpose of confessing sins to priests...The requirement for confessing sin through priests is one of the fundamental principles of Roman Catholicism. --The Associated Press, Dec. 11, 1984

My Master says: "I am the [way, the TRUTH,] and life: [NO MAN COMMETH TO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME." John14:6

And again, for your ADDITIONAL WORKS that are void to the Truth of God! (catechism)
"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues .... And if any man shall take away from the Words of the book ... God shall take away his part [out of the book of life, and out of the Holy city]." Rev.'s last few verses.

And confession to [any] priest???
"Now we know that God heareth [NOT SINNERS]." (open & flagrant)

"If [regard] iniquity in my heart, [the Lord wll not hear me]." Psalms 66:18
Of course that means the one 'confessing' his sin to moral man huh?

Notice forum: Isaiah 59:1-2,
"BEHOLD, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor his ear heavy that it can not hear: BUT your iniquities [HAVE SEPERATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU, THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR]." And you are telling us God is the liar from the beginning, huh?

Another:
"All dogmatic decrees of the Pope, made with or without his general council, are INFALLIBLE ... Once made, no pope or council can reverse them ... This is the Catholic principle, that the Church cannot err in faith." --The Catholic World, June 1871, pgs. 422-423.

Notice Rev. 3:8's last part & verse 9 for this deception! Refering to Philadelphia in verse 7 Christ says: "... thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my Word, [and not denied my NAME] ...Behold, I will make them of the [synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, But do lie] ..." And forum, BE SURE that you know that I am not teaching that Rom. 2:28-29's Jews are a denomination of Roman Catholics. This is for an apostate [PURE VIRGIN DENOMINATION in teaching only]. Catholicism in long, Long, LONG GONE! See 1 John 2:4

Again be sure to note: John 10:16 tells us a truth, that the Master does have HIS IGNORANT CHILDREN in these false Folds! And in Rev. 18:4 we see the SAME PRECIOUS TRUTH. YET... BE CERTAIN TO NOTE THAT THE DENOMINATION IS PAST/TENSE & to REMAIN YOKED TO THIS STUFF FINDS ONE AN 'PARTAKER' AND JUDGED ETERNALLY LOST!

And then the LORDS BOTTOM LINE in Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse, it GOSPELIZES A TRUTH, "NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANY MORE, EXCEPT YOU DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU." So class, if Christ leaves, who takes over? (any denomination) Again Rev. 3:9 & Matt. 23:15--P/N/B/

Wolseley · Oct 13, 2002

Well. It appears that we poor deluded Catholics will all burn in hell forever, believing the doctrine of demons as we do.

I can go into these points with you, Pastor N.B., but this is the wrong forum for it. Cut and paste your above post in the One Bread, One Body forum, and we'll take it from there.

I eagerly await your post.

Blackwing · Oct 14, 2002

Ok let us settle everybody ok? If you want to keep on talking aboput doctrine then discuss it at another forum, we are talking about endtimes here, not anything else

ladylove · Oct 14, 2002

It may BE a possibility that because the current pope is an elderly man, that the future pope could be so innerly corrupt and fool everyone within the Catholic heirarchy, that this future pope could be THE false prophet.  It is not out of the realm of possibilty, my Catholic friends.  This is what many see as inevitable and how the anti-christ will gain ultimate world domination, but I have many Catholic lay friends who truly do have a personal relationship with Christ and their fruit shows it and would oppose such false worship.  What the Pastor and many others believe is that it is the Catholic heirarchy that is inherrently apostate and corrupt, not the lay parishinors or even some of the priesthood.  I think it is an intriguing possibility that our Catholic friends must entertain.

BTW, did you know that the Catholic Church never excommunicated Adolf Hitler, who was Catholic?  Interesting information that may have relevance in the 70th week...

Wolseley · Oct 14, 2002

It may BE a possibility that because the current pope is an elderly man, that the future pope could be so innerly corrupt and fool everyone within the Catholic heirarchy, that this future pope could be THE false prophet. It is not out of the realm of possibilty, my Catholic friends. This is what many see as inevitable and how the anti-christ will gain ultimate world domination, but I have many Catholic lay friends who truly do have a personal relationship with Christ and their fruit shows it and would oppose such false worship. What the Pastor and many others believe is that it is the Catholic heirarchy that is inherrently apostate and corrupt, not the lay parishinors or even some of the priesthood. I think it is an intriguing possibility that our Catholic friends must entertain.

Holy Scripture tells us that the Church speaks with Christ's voice (Luke 10:16); that it is led by the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 and 16:13); that it is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15), and that Christ is always with it (Matthew 28:20). In order for the Church to be inherently apostate and corrupt means that the Holy Spirit is no longer leading it into all Christ's teachings, that it no longer speaks with Christ's voice, that Scripture is incorrect in calling the Church the pillar of truth, and that Christ has abandoned it after He said He wouldn't. In light of this, I am one Catholic who does not entertain the ideas above, because I am not arrogant enough to make Jesus Christ out to be a liar.

BTW, did you know that the Catholic Church never excommunicated Adolf Hitler, who was Catholic?

BTW, did you know that the Catholic Church didn't need to excommunicate Hitler? Hitler was automatically excommunicated by virtue of the things he did---he never went to Mass, he denegrated the Church, he persecuted the clergy, he killed innocent civilians, he engaged in aggresive war, he was involved in mass murder, you name it. These things brought upon him a latae sententiae, or automatic, excommunication; only an excommunication that is issued by decree of the Vatican (ferendae sententiae) has to be in writing. Simply because an excommunication was not issued in writing does not mean it didn't exist. Canon law states that an excommunication can take place "by the very commission of the offense". A modern example would be a woman who willingly procures an abortion; by that very action, she is automatically excommunicated.

ladylove · Oct 14, 2002

Okay, I understand this is a sensitive subject for Catholics and even gentle criticism is difficult. I never intended to call all Catholics apostate, but I do have great reservations with how the Catholic heirarchy leads. I gently challenged you to do the same, but it is rejected. It is your choice. I respect that.

If excommunication can be done with out official blessing of the Vatican, I for one would view the Catholic church as well, I just won't say it. Best wishes.

Wolseley · Oct 14, 2002

I gently challenged you to do the same, but it is rejected.

Completely, totally, utterly, and unequivocably.

It is your choice. I respect that.

Thank you.

Best wishes.

You too.

Benedicat vos omnipotens Deus; Pater, et Filio, et Spiritus Sanctus.

rollinTHUNDER · Oct 15, 2002

Maybe we need to pour a little oil on this fire. We're not lookin' to go out. We're lookin' to go up.
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Brain Damage · Nov 17, 2002

I believe mystery babylon to be jerusalem , the reasons of which have already been given by armothe -

Compare what Jesus says in Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! 

To what John says in Rev 18:21-24

"So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more... 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of ALL who have been slain on earth." 

Also, lets consider what Jerimiah says in 4:30

O desolate one [Jerusalem], what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate [yourself with] ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful 

And Ezekiel 16:37

therefore I am going to gather all your [Israel's] lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness.

To Revelation 17:4-16

17:4 And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality...
17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

Shimon · Nov 21, 2002

"Mystery Babylon" is referred to as a "harlot." What is a harlot? A harlot is someone who was unfaithful to the marriage covenant. Throughout scripture, Israel was always referred to as a "harlot" because she was unfaithful to her marriage covenant -- The Torah. The Torah *IS* the Marriage Covenant of the Lamb. To disobey the Torah is to be unfaithful the Marriage Covenant and become an adulteress.

Babylon is referred to as *Mystery* Babylon because Israel has no knowledge of its own identity. Gentile Christianity is the Nation of Israel. There is no "church" there is only the nation of Israel -- and Israel has been just as disobedient to the Marriage Covenant in the past 2000 years following Yeshua's death as it was in the previous 2000 years *before* His death.

Constantine committed exactly the same transgression as Jereboam in leading Israel to sin. This is Constantine's Creed, an oath that was forced upon Jewish and Gentile believers:

I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of the lambs of the Hebrews, all of the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications, propitiations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants, and observances of the synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I now renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law-abiding custom and if afterwards I should wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with the Jews or feasting with them or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain, and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.

Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, santifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath the Sol Dei (Sun Day) all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.

Shimon

rollinTHUNDER · Nov 21, 2002

Originally posted by Shimon
"Mystery Babylon" is referred to as a "harlot." What is a harlot? A harlot is someone who was unfaithful to the marriage covenant. Throughout scripture, Israel was always referred to as a "harlot" because she was unfaithful to her marriage covenant -- The Torah. The Torah *IS* the Marriage Covenant of the Lamb. To disobey the Torah is to be unfaithful the Marriage Covenant and become an adulteress.

Babylon is referred to as *Mystery* Babylon because Israel has no knowledge of its own identity. Gentile Christianity is the Nation of Israel. There is no "church" there is only the nation of Israel -- and Israel has been just as disobedient to the Marriage Covenant in the past 2000 years following Yeshua's death as it was in the previous 2000 years *before* His death.

Constantine committed exactly the same transgression as Jereboam in leading Israel to sin. This is Constantine's Creed, an oath that was forced upon Jewish and Gentile believers:

Shimon

Not another one, who thinks the church is Israel. You have been deceived my friend. So much so, that you speak the Jewish language, or are you Jewish by blood also?? I can prove you're wrong with the scriptures. There is definitely a difference between the church and Israel. Ask me how I know, and I'll tell you.

Shimon · Nov 21, 2002

Not another one, who thinks the church is Israel. You have been deceived my friend.

There is no "church," there is only the Nation of Israel.  In fact, the word "church" is derived from the same root from we get the word "circus."

So much so, that you speak the Jewish language, or are you Jewish by blood also?? I can prove you're wrong with the scriptures. There is definitely a difference between the church and Israel. Ask me how I know, and I'll tell you.

Many have tried, all have failed.  If you wish to discuss it, I'd be more than happy to do so.

 

Shimon

Pastor N.B. · Nov 21, 2002

Originally posted by Shimon
There is no "church," there is only the Nation of Israel.  In fact, the word "church" is derived from the same root from we get the word "circus."

Many have tried, all have failed.  If you wish to discuss it, I'd be more than happy to do so.

*****
Friend: (P/N/B/ here)
You come across as one of these seen in Rev. 3:17 with Christ saying .. "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched,and miserable, and poor, and [BLIND and NAKED]."

Many have tried, all have failed you say? You mean that as far as [your knowledge goes] that they have failed! To be perfectly honest with you, you come across as being very BLIND & arogrant to me!

But perhaps that some here will continue to dialogue with you? Not me!
It sounds hopless for now at least.
*****

 

Shimon

Shimon · Nov 21, 2002

Pastor N.B. :

But perhaps that some here will continue to dialogue with you? Not me!
It sounds hopless for now at least.

The dialogue between me and RollinThunder has thus far been on matters concerning events of the past.  This is the eschatology forum, which deals with events of the future.  Am I to undestand correctly that you choose to refrain from dialogue with me on topics of future events because of my beliefs concerning events of the past?

I interpreted RollinThunder's statements as a challenge, and I simply welcomed the challenge.

 

Shimon

rollinTHUNDER · Nov 22, 2002

Hello Shimon,
Israel is restored back to the land NOT because they are righteous! Read Ezekiel 36 very carefully.

Ezekiel 36:22 - "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy names sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went."

32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

The reason God restored Israel is not because they are righteous! It's because of HIS OWN NAME'S SAKE! When you touch Israel you are touching the Apple of God's eye. Although Israel has been unfaithful, God will remain faithful to his promise. 

Zechariah 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. This covenant is a never ending, everlasting covenant.

God is the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER.

rollinTHUNDER · Nov 22, 2002

This is why God hardened Israel:

Romans 11:7-8 - "What then? What Israel sought so ernestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, (8)as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so they could not hear, to this very day."

Romans 11:11 - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgretion, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

And this is how and when God will save Israel unto Himself:

Romans 11:25 - "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in."

So as we can plainly see, as long as God is still in the business of saving Gentiles, Israel will be temporarily blinded. This is also very good evidence of a pre-trib rapture in my opinion, because God is going to finish His work in the Gentiles before He restores Israel. Glory in the highest to the living God!!!!!!!

Shimon · Nov 22, 2002

RollinThunder:

Israel is restored back to the land NOT because they are righteous! Read Ezekiel 36 very carefully.

So far, we seem to be pretty much in agreement.  I agree with you that God restores Israel back for His Own Name's sake and not because Israel was righteous.  And, of course, Israel *hasn't* yet been restored to the land -- she is still dispersed among the nations.

This is why God hardened Israel:

Romans 11:7-8 - "What then? What Israel sought so ernestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, (8)as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so they could not hear, to this very day."

Romans 11:11 - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgretion, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

Here again we are in agreement.  Paul tells us that the hearts were hardened so that salvation would come unto the Gentiles.  But notice what else he says:  to make Israel jealous.

Israel which includes both Jews and Israelites, were to be made jealous by seeing Gentiles observing Torah through a joyful and obedient spirit.  They were supposed to see us obeying Torah, with joy and gladness because were given a new heart through the Holy Spirit who gives us the willingness and power to obey His Torah as it was meant to be obeyed.  They were supposed to see the light shining in us and say I want some of that!  But instead, we declared the Torah to be obsolete and done away with.  That doesnt provoke them to jealousy, it provokes them to disgust.

Ive known some Messianic Jews who will tell you that the most jealous and uncomfortable people in the world are Traditional Jews whose children accepted Yeshua as Messiah.  Their parents see the light shining forth in their lives, they see them obeying Torah with more joy and gladness than they possess themselves, and they want that same joy.  So they start attending their Traditional Jewish synagogue more regularly, searching for that same joy, not realizing that that isnt where theyre going to find it.

Romans 11:25 - "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in."

So as we can plainly see, as long as God is still in the business of saving Gentiles, Israel will be temporarily blinded. This is also very good evidence of a pre-trib rapture in my opinion, because God is going to finish His work in the Gentiles before He restores Israel. Glory in the highest to the living God!!!!!!!

This is where we disagree.  The translation you provided is not an entirely accurate translation.

God promised Abraham that he would become the father of many nations literally a fullness of Goyim:

Genesis 17:4:  As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

When Jacob blessed his newly adopted sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he said that Ephraim would become a multitude of nations literally a fullness of Goyim:

Genesis 48:19:  And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

In both of these verses, the original Hebrew reads a fullness of Goyim.  Thats exactly what has happened Ephraim was scattered among the Gentiles and has become a fullness of Goyim.

What Romans 11:25 is saying is that the hardening took place until the fullness of Goyim (i.e. "multitude of nations") come in.  It is *NOT* saying that as long as God is still in the business of saving Gentiles, Israel will be temporarily blinded.

Shimon

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