Are both these statements true?

TruthMiner · Apr 16, 2008

This is a YES or NO question.

Are both of the following statements true?

For Christians the one God is the Triune God.

For Christians the one God is the Father.

1. If yes, please explain how the one God of Christians is both a three person being and the one God is one person.

2. If no, please identify which of the above two statements is correct.

Terral · Apr 17, 2008

Hi TruthMiner:

Since your OP query has no Scriptural reference to anything, then we must speculate on the true context and meaning from your use of terms and mere assumptions.

TruthMiner said:
This is a YES or NO question. Are both of the following statements true?

No. Professing Christians believe many things that include Unitarian and Trinitarian dogma based upon their own forms of Denominationalism.

TruthMiner said:
For Christians the one God is the Triune God.

For Christians the one God is the Father.

Christ Jesus is the One Mediator standing between God and men of the SAME VERSE (1Timothy 2:5), which helps some professing Christians recognize the differences between the Son of God (2Cor. 1:19) and His God and Father (Rev. 1:6) He calls the Only True God (Jn 17:3). Gods three witnesses (of spirit, blood and water) are standing with Him in Revelation 1:8 (God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was), while the three witnesses of The Word (Christ) are testifying for Him in Matthew 28:19 (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). The three witnesses of This Creation (diagram) are the heavens (spirit), heaven (blood) and earth (water = diagram) in the same way the three witnesses of man are the spirit, soul and body (1Thes 5:23) from these two diagrams (here and here). Since a vast majority of professing Christians do NOT know the differences between the three witnesses of The Almighty and The Word He sent into the world to save sinners, then these trinity discussions become mired in semantics at the very start. My posts explaining the differences are here:

Jesus Christ is the Son of God

No. The Son Does NOT Know All Things

The Father, Son And Holy Spirit

TruthMiner said:
1. If yes, please explain how the one God of Christians is both a three person being and the one God is one person.

God and His The Word (John 1:1-3, 14 = the Son of God = John 1:34) are One and the same thing in Gods Infinite Realm (far left) beyond the Second Veil of the True Tabernacle (Heb. 8:1-2) pitched by the Lord God and not men. In fact, Gods Infinite Realm is the very same location where You are gods (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34) where your spirit, soul and body are also one thing. Heaven (between earth and heavens) and the Highest Heaven (between Holy Spirit Realm and Father Realm) cannot contain our God (1Kings 8:26-27), because He is very much INFINITE and cannot possibly be contained by anything that is finite like the Word Realm (F+S+HS) and This Creation (heavens, heaven and earth). THAT is the very reason He sent His Three Witnesses (God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was) in the first place to testify about the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who raised His Only Begotten Son from the dead (Rom. 10:9). Therefore, God is One from the perspective of His Infinite Realm (outer infinite shell) and all the gods looking through The Word (F+S+HS) into this Adamic Universe, but He is triune from the perspective of incarnate men standing inside this broken (blue sphere) universe. To use a human explanation: Please explain how the one TruthMiner is both a three person being (spirit, soul and body) and a one god (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34) being one person? :0) TruthMiner in Gods Infinite Realm has no spirit and no soul and no physical body of expression, because those triune witnesses testifying of your being are all one and the same thing included in your god existence.

The Singularity Expression of your TruthMiner = god existence has been divided like light being diffused through a prism in your Word Realm (F+S+HS) existence (within red sphere), so that your This Creation incarnation in this universe could be diffused through yet another Adamic prism giving you a spirit (spirit witness), soul (blood witness) and body (water witness) of your very own. God appears to be triune, just like The Word (F+S+HS), because They are actively interacting with us (incarnate men) within a broken triune universe (heavens, heaven and earth). If you have the ability to transcend the boundaries of time and space to reconnect with your infinite god self (like me), then you would realize that God and The Word are One and the Same Thing in His Infinite Realm.

TruthMiner said:

2. If no, please identify which of the above two statements is correct.

Click to expand...

Since your statements are based upon what professing Christians think and believe, then we can speculate for ages and ages about their man-made dogma. The differences between the Three Witnesses of God and The Word are described here.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

NathanCGreen · Apr 21, 2008

TruthMiner said:
This is a YES or NO question.

Are both of the following statements true?

For Christians the one God is the Triune God.

For Christians the one God is the Father.

1. If yes, please explain how the one God of Christians is both a three person being and the one God is one person.

2. If no, please identify which of the above two statements is correct.

To us, there is but one God, the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6

NathanCGreen · Apr 21, 2008

Terral said:
Since your OP query has no Scriptural reference to anything, then we must speculate on the true context and meaning from your use of terms and mere assumptions.

No, you may not speculate on the context, for its truth is found in the Holy Scriptures, of which you are apparently ignorant. If you knew them, you would have answered as I have.

Terral · Apr 22, 2008

Hi Nathan:

NathanCGreen said:
No, you may not speculate on the context, for its truth is found in the Holy Scriptures, of which you are apparently ignorant. If you knew them, you would have answered as I have.

This is a bold and arrogant statement for someone with a one-liner reply to the OP query. Please quote anything at all from my work in Post #2 to offer your opposing views, so we can examine every word very carefully for signs of sheer ignorance. :0)

Truthminer asked two Yes or No questions, but somebody is not even paying attention. God the Father is the One God of 1Timothy 2:5 (diagram*) and Christ Jesus is the One Mediator (Son of God) of the same verse (under red arrow*). God is the Only True God of John 17:3 and My God of John 20:17 and the God who raised His Son of God from the dead in Romans 10:9. God is the same God who sent His Only Begotten Son into the world (John 3:16-18) to save sinners (1Tim 1:15-16), but since I have only been teaching Scripture for the past thirty years, then perhaps there are many things you can show the old man. :0)

If all you can muster is more one-liner drivel, then please think about remaining silent to appear wise to someone.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

NathanCGreen · Apr 27, 2008

Terral said:
This is a bold and arrogant statement for someone with a ‘one-liner’ reply to the OP query.

But at least I used scripture to answer the OP...

Terral said:
Truthminer asked two “Yes or No” questions, but somebody is not even paying attention.

Yes, and the first question was if both statements were correct. In the answer I gave from the Holy Scriptures, it is evident that I refute the "Triune" god hypothesis and thus did not need to answer this one: 1. If yes, please explain how the one God of Christians is both a three person being and the one God is one person.
And so my answer was corresponding to this: 2. If no, please identify which of the above two statements is correct.

See?

Terral said:
If all you can muster is more ‘one-liner’ drivel, then please think about remaining silent to appear wise to someone.

Sir, from what I read of your work in your first post in this thread, I would conclude that my supposed 'drivel' is derived from the written word of God, yet yours seems to stem from unbiblical sources. You don't back up what you are saying with scripture. And how about this arrogant statement of yours:

Terral said:
"If you have the ability to transcend the boundaries of time and space to reconnect with your infinite ‘god’ self (like me), then you would realize that God and The Word are “One” and the Same Thing in His Infinite Realm."

Perhaps you should heed the same advice from the Bible that you gave me...?

Terral · Apr 27, 2008

Hi Nathan:

NathanCGreen said:
But at least I used scripture to answer the OP...

The entirety of your post above says,

Post #3

NathanCGreen said:
To us, there is but one God, the Father. 1 Corinthians 8:6

We agree 100 percent that the Only True God (Jn 17:3) is the One God of 1Timothy 2:5 for whom Christ Jesus is the One Mediator between God and men (diagram = under red arrow). This is the same God who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day (1Cor 15:1-4). However, the cheap shot you took at my person in Post #4 helps these readers define Nathan more than anyone here:

NathanCGreen said:
No, you may not speculate on the context, for its truth is found in the Holy Scriptures, of which you are apparently ignorant. If you knew them, you would have answered as I have.

BTW, what did Nathan quote >> from my work in Post #2, before he began leveling these foolish allegations? Nothing at all. Now Nathan can prove his the Holy Scriptures, of which you (Terral) apparently you are ignorant claims using whatever evidence he is willing to offer. These readers can judge between us and decide if that kind of accusation rightfully fits me or you. :0)

NathanCGreen said:
Yes, and the first question was if both statements were correct. In the answer I gave from the Holy Scriptures, it is evident that I refute the "Triune" god hypothesis and thus did not need to answer this one:

Really? And you did all of this using just one verse from Pauls First Epistle To The Corinthians and some snide comments in my direction? :0) Here is the truth of this Triune God Topic in a nutshell: Those blinded by Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy and Protestantism falsely believe the Father (spirit witness), Son (blood witness) and Holy Spirit (water witness = Helper) represent God, when in truth those are the three witnesses (1Jn 5:6-8) of The Word (The Logos = Christ). God shows us His glory in the face of our Lord Jesus Christ (2Cor 4:5-6), because the Son of God (F+S+HS) is the IMAGE of the Invisible God. Col 1:15. That means Roman Catholicism with her sister and daughter denominations have the right triune pattern, but they have the wrong principals plugged into the spirit, blood and water equation. God and The Word must interact with men (spirit, soul and body) using their three witnesses (The Almighty = God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was = Rev 1:8), because we are currently living inside a broken universe (heavens, heaven and earth). The Words three witnesses are testifying for the Son of God (Christ = F+S+HS) from Genesis 2:4 to Revelation 22, while Gods three witnesses are testifying and speaking in Genesis 1 ("Our Image" = Gen 1:26-28) and from IN Christ (2Cor 5:19) throughout the remainder of Gods Living Word. God is INFINITE and cannot be contained by heaven (Gen. 1:8) or the highest heaven (1Kings 8:27) of Genesis 1:2 (in red), but He can be contained by The Word (F+S+HS) He sent to save sinners as His Living Tabernacle/Temple of God.

God and The Word are ONE and the same thing in Gods Infinite Realm (far left*), but God commanded The Word to incarnate so The Earth (Gen. 1:1 = far right*) could be called to exist IN Him (Col. 1:16*) for all things in this universe to be held together IN Him (Col. 1:17* = diagram). This triune relationship between God, The Word and The Creation (Adam) called the original three witnesses of spirit (God = GTC, GWI, GWW), blood (Christ = F+S+HS) and water (The Earth = heavens, heaven and earth) into being way back in Genesis 1:1, until these things all become one and God is all in all (1Cor 15:27-28 = diagram) once again. The believers in our gospel have Christ in you (Col. 1:27) and God IN Christ (diagram) IN themselves right this moment as we speak, which creates the three witnesses of a son of God (You, Christ IN You, God IN Him) representing Temples of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 3:16, 6:19) with citizenship in heaven (Phil. 3:20). Yes. God and The Word (Christ) are One and the same thing in His Infinite Realm beyond the Second Veil containing time and space (outermost sphere). However, They are two things (God and His Son) in this broken universe and Christ IN you (F+S+HS) is the ONLY thing that can contain God within our mortal beings. God and His Word gradually become One and the same thing IN every son of God throughout all the ages to come, as we (sons of God) become conformed to the IMAGE of His Son (Rom 8:29). This means that Gods number is One, because His three witnesses are joined together IN Him (God incarnate = Rev. 21:3). The Words (F+S+HS) number to which we are being conformed is Two, because He has God IN Him (God + Christ). However, our number continues to be Three, because we have Christ in us (Col. 1:27) and God IN Him (2Cor 5:19 = diagram), until God and His Word become One in this reality and we become like Christ with ONLY God IN us. Now, you can quote >> every word of my testimony on this topic for a nice debate, but these readers can already see that I am anything but ignorant to the truth of Gods Living Word on these Bible Topics. :0)

NathanCGreen said:
1. If yes, please explain how the one God of Christians is both a three person being and the one God is one person. And so my answer was corresponding to this: 2. If no, please identify which of the above two statements is correct.

Nathans Commentary >> See?

Yes. We see more one-word commentary from a guy making ignorant accusations towards me. A wise man might address TruthMiners OP questions using Scripture and his own commentary apart from taking these cheap shots in my direction . . .

NathanCGreen said:
Sir, from what I read of your work in your first post in this thread, I would conclude that my supposed 'drivel' is derived from the written word of God, yet yours seems to stem from unbiblical sources. You don't back up what you are saying with scripture. And how about this arrogant statement of yours:

What you would conclude has nothing to do with anything at all. You give your answers and I will continue doing the same AND these readers can judge everyone to see if anybody is approved (1Cor 11:19) to God (2Tim. 2:15). If you would like to assist these readers in drawing your ignorant conclusions, then please quote >> anything from my work to share with us your opposing views supported by anything you call credible evidence.

NathanCGreen said:
Perhaps you should heed the same advice from the Bible that you gave me...?

Thus far Nathan as failed to produce a thesis statement with claims supported by any evidence at all, so these readers can begin drawing his conclusions. The funny part of this debate is that we agree that there is only One God (1Tim. 2:5, Eph 4:6) the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, but somehow my side of the deliberation process is ignorant to what appears in Gods Living Word. :0) Try to image the fun we might have if we actually disagreed about something . . .

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

NathanCGreen · Apr 28, 2008

Terral said:
Thus far Nathan as failed to produce a thesis statement with claims supported by any evidence at all

Really? Oh... I thought that I only needed to produce scripture to back up any claims.

Terral said:
The funny part of this debate is that we agree that there is only “One God” (1Tim. 2:5, Eph 4:6) the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, but somehow my side of the deliberation process is ‘ignorant’ to what appears in God’s Living Word. :0) Try to image the fun we might have if we actually disagreed about something . . .

Yes, after I had posted my last reply, I noticed another post of yours which showed me your position on who God is... and I was relieved, but still wondered how you could be left with a 'Triune' pattern. I don't really know what to call it, but from what I read, I could not understand and I can't figure out where you came up with it, but it isn't in the Bible, that's for sure. If you have 'help' from elsewhere, why should you be able to inherit this information, while the rest of us rely on what God has already given in written form?

Sorry, but your pronouncements are not sound. It seems to be vain babblings, that's all. But who knows? Maybe you're right?

Terral · Apr 28, 2008

Hi Nathan:

NathanCGreen said:
Sorry, but your pronouncements are not sound. It seems to be vain babblings, that's all. But who knows? Maybe you're right?

My Singularity/Trinity statements above are correct and I know it. :0) Your position is the same held by all unbelievers. Please quote >> anything from my work and offer any opposing views you can support using Scripture. 2Tim 2:15, 1Cor 11:19. Otherwise we simply have nothing to debate. Good luck . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

NathanCGreen · Apr 29, 2008

Terral said:
My Singularity/Trinity statements above are correct and I know it. :0) Your position is the same held by all unbelievers. Please quote >> anything from my work and offer any opposing views you can support using Scripture. 2Tim 2:15, 1Cor 11:19. Otherwise we simply have nothing to debate. Good luck . . .

Okay, I am not going to quote your work just yet, but obviously you know what it entails anyway. But I will first mention the "three witnesses" that you mentioned. First, you say there are three witnesses for God, then three for the Son of God also... Where is this revealed in Scripture? What I am seeing from your work, is a lot of extracting of verses and not a lot of contextually honest and accurate renderings.

I only need to know what God has given in His written word, and to be led of His holy spirit.

And frankly, I don't like to debate, but I do like to defend God's truth.

Lastly, I hope you can understand that most of us cannot see what you are seeing, simply because it is just imagination running wild without the proof needed to convince any of us... Sure, you may have provided scripture, but not for your unique ideas.

Terral · Apr 29, 2008

Hi Nathan:

NathanCGreen said:
Okay, I am not going to quote your work just yet, but obviously you know what it entails anyway.

Obviously. :0)

NathanCGreen said:
But I will first mention the "three witnesses" that you mentioned. First, you say there are three witnesses for God, then three for the Son of God also... Where is this revealed in Scripture?

The three witnesses of spirit, blood and water are revealed from Genesis to Revelation, but only IF you have eyes from God to see. The spirit witness bears the number 1, while the blood witness is number 2 and the water witness is number 3 (God's Numerology Thread). Added together they equal the number of man (1+2+3) equaling six. Scripture says,

[FONT=&quot]

This is the One who came by water (#3) and blood (#2), Jesus Christ; not with the water (#3) only, but with the water (#3) and with the blood (#2). It is the Spirit (#1) who testifies, because the Spirit (#1) is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit (#1) and the water (#3) and the blood (#2); and the three are in to the One. 1John 5:6-8.

[/FONT]

Scripture is filled with three witness mystery sets (diagrams here and here) like the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) derived from Singularity Expressions, which in this case just happens to be the three witnesses of The Word given in Matthew 28:19. Gods three witnesses are standing with Him in Revelation 1:8 in the Persons of God To Come (spirit), God Who Is (blood) and God Who Was (diagram and His throne) and those three are into the One exactly like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (diagram) comprise "Christ Jesus" (F+S+HS = my thread). The three witnesses of this The Earth (Gen. 1:1 = far right) broken universe are the heavens (spirit witness = upper waters of Gen. 1:6-7 = 2Peter 3:5*), heaven (only begotten blood witness = Gen 1:8) and the earth (water witness = helper = formed from water = 2Peter 3:5*) being utilized as we speak as a vehicle of expression. The three witnesses of Adam (man of the earth = Gen. 2:7 = diagram) are Adam (spirit witness = image and glory of God), her seed (blood witness = Gen. 3:15) and Eve (water witness = helper = image of man). The three witnesses of man are his spirit (breath of life), his soul (blood witness) and physical body (dust of the ground) listed for you in 1Thes. 5:23. The three witnesses of bread for the Tabernacle/Temple are oil (spirit), broken grain (blood) and water (water witness) when joined together under heat (testing/trial) enlarged to become three witnesses into the one. Jesus Christ is the true Bread out of heaven (Jn 6:32), because He is the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water = Helper) all rolled into the One representing The Word of John 1:1-2, 14 made flesh.

God offered the Gospel of the Kingdom (Gospel #1 here) to Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24, 10:5-7) through John the Baptist coming first as the spirit witness paving the way for Christ to come in water and in blood. 1Jn 5:6. Christ had to come in water AND in blood, because Moses (water witness) was not allowed to lead Israel into the Promised Land (see Num 20:9-12). Therefore, only Elijah (spirit witness) came alone and Jesus Christ (blood witness) picked up the Holy Spirit (water witness) baton in the Jordan River (Matt. 3:15-16), until that was passed to His Disciples on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4 = diagram). We see the three witnesses of New Jerusalem testifying on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-8 = diagram) in the persons of Elijah* (spirit witness), Christ (blood witness) and Moses*** (water witness), as those three (Adam*, Christ and Eve***) become one throughout the ages to come. Your Bible is also a Living Triune Tabernacle/Temple of the Father (39 OT books = spirit witness), Son (13 Pauls Epistles = blood witness) and the Holy Spirit (13 Kingdom Epistles = water witness) and those three are into the one (diagram), according to the same relationships established by Gods Living Word (Christ = F+S+HS) bearing the IMAGE of the Invisible God (Col. 1:15). Anyone truly interested in studying Gods Living Word (Scripture) through the eyes of Gods Three Witnesses can begin by reading my Mystery Post (link) from the Zola Levitt website. The Mystery link at the bottom of that post leads you to my The Mystery Explained work that explains these things in greater detail.

NathanCGreen said:
What I am seeing from your work, is a lot of extracting of verses and not a lot of contextually honest and accurate renderings.

Everyone here has the same opportunity to quote >> anything at all from my work to offer your opposing views supported by anything you consider to be credible evidence. I have been studying Gods Word through the eyes of His Three Witnesses for decades and realize Nathan sees very little if anything pertaining to Gods Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6-8) reserved only for the mature. A quick comparison of our reputations shows clear evidence that the typical CF member is seated with my distinguished debating adversary in the same unbelieving boat. :0)

NathanCGreen said:
I only need to know what God has given in His written word, and to be led of His holy spirit.

Really? Scripture says that we plant seeds and water seeds, but God must cause the growth. 1Cor. 3:6-7. A guy boasting about what is given in Gods Living Word should trouble himself to use a little bit of that in his posts to assist these readers in drawing his predetermined conclusions. All this bible thumper can do is lead the horses to water . . .

NathanCGreen said:
And frankly, I don't like to debate, but I do like to defend God's truth.

Debate is simply the presentation of opposing views. You used no Scripture or any commentary in Post #10 I am answering today, or in Post #8, or in Post #6, or in Post #4 where these readers appear to be exposed to more whining (. . . Holy Scriptures, of which you (Terral) are apparently ignorant . . ..) and evidence of your unbelief than anything else.

NathanCGreen said:
Lastly, I hope you can understand that most of us cannot see what you are seeing, simply because it is just imagination running wild without the proof needed to convince any of us... Sure, you may have provided scripture, but not for your unique ideas.

Please forgive, but I realize that most of you cannot see the truth of Gods Three Witnesses (GTC, GWI, GWW) testifying about His Son (F+S+HS) throughout His Living Triune Word, but I am here to please God and not men blinded by their various forms of Denominationalism. Gal. 1:10. Everyone here is encouraged to quote >> anything at all from my work to offer your advocating or opposing views using any kind of evidentiary support at all, IF you are ever able to point out any errors. :0)

You give yours and I will do the same and everyone here can judge us both. Good Luck,

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

GraceSeeker · Apr 29, 2008

TruthMiner said:
This is a YES or NO question.

Are both of the following statements true?

For Christians the one God is the Triune God.

For Christians the one God is the Father.

1. If yes, please explain how the one God of Christians is both a three person being and the one God is one person.

2. If no, please identify which of the above two statements is correct.

I can tell you that first state IS and the second statement IS NOT what is articulated by the classical expressions regarding the Trinity that we see articulated by Athanasius and others.

But I also need to comment on your questions that follow. You see the first one simply does NOT make sense. The Trinity does NOT say that the one God who is triune is both a three-person being and one person. Rather it says that there are three persons in one being. That is something very different than your first question.

Thus, I must disagree with Nathan's answer as well:

NathanCGreen said:
To us, there is but one God, the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6

It is true there is but one God, but though he quotes scripture, he misapplies it. When one says that the Father is God, this is true. But when one says that God is the Father and stops there, it is true only as far as it goes, yet to fully describe God it needs to go farther. We cannot forget Thomas' statement in John 20:28 when he greets Jesus following the resurrection: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!' " Thomas is not just giving praise to God the Father in greeting Jesus, the verse tells us that he is actually speaking TO Jesus and address him as "my God". And Jesus affirms Thomas in what he said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Also, as Teral like to point out, the Word was God. What he fails to somehow understand is that Jesus is identified by scripture as this Word who is God (see John 1:1-5 & 14). So, again we have Jesus presented as God.

Even God himself refers to the Son as God. If one reads the opening chapter of Hebrews we see that God (the Father) is speaking of the Son in verse 5 and following. And in verse 8 we read:

But about the Son he [God] says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever..."

To me, it seems clear that God is calling the Son God.

So scripture itself is refering to the Father to whom Jesus prayed as God and Jesus who is the Son as God. Thus we have both the Father and the Son being referred to as God in the scriptures.

Add to that passages like Peter's conversation with Ananias in Acts 5 where he says,

Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? ...You have not lied to me but to God.

So, at least in Peter's mind, lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.

Yet, scriptures also clearly proclaims that there is just one God: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord" (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Faced with these different passages the early church tried to make sense of them and their experience. And they were left with just a few options, either:
1) The revelation that God gave to Moses was wrong, had been passed down wrong, or wasn't truly a revelation from God. This would mean that they could have more than one God and all would be well. But the church simply knew this wasn't true. They were too Jewish to even consider that concept for more than a moment.
2) Despite Jesus' own claims, the experience of people like Thomas with Jesus, and the continued affirmation of his divinity that people like Peter sees in the resurrection (read Peter's Pentecost sermon in Acts 2 carefully and you will see that this is actually affirmed in the response he makes to the crowd), it must be that all of these people are wrong. Well, how can you be a follower of one whom you say is wrong? So, they were left with a caundry. There answer was the unique formulation that we have since come to know as the Trinity.
3) There is just one God, but he exists as three persons in one being. This was not as far of a stretch for the Jewish mind as we today seem to think it was. The key was the affirmation of the unity of God. In making this statement the early Christians were NOT trying to actually expand the concept of God to multiple beings, quite the contrary. They were trying to make sure that pagans who did worship multiple gods understood that even with their references to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as all divine that they still were worshipping just one being who is the one true God.

The formulation of the Trinity was NOT, as some like to incorrectly state, that 1+1+1=1. Rather, if we are trying to represent it through some sort of analogy to mathematics it would be more like 1x1x1=1.

And, again IMO, I believe this is what we see in scripture. Look at Paul's comparing of the glory of the two different covenants

2 Corinthians 3
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Paul speaks of "the Lord", but sometimes it is obvious that he is speaking of the God of Moses, other times of Jesus, and at the end of the passage of the Spirit. So, all are the Lord, but there is never the implication that there is more than one Lord. Hence, though the term is not used in scripture, we see a presentation of God that is exactly what is expressed by the more formal doctrine of the Trinity as it becomes articulated in the 4th century.

But some things we must never do is to misunderstand the Trinity to say that there are 3 different beings who are God or that there are different degrees of greater and lesser gods or even that anyone person is inferior/superior to another within the godhead.

Terral · Apr 29, 2008

Hi GraceSeeker:

Post #12 has so little Scripture or substance that I was inclined to simply read the thing and move on. However, some of your statements are so blatantly dead wrong that some reply is definitely warranted. This Jesus is God! idolatry has blinded MANY to the simple truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (John 1:34) and that the Only True God (Jn 17:3) raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day.

GraceSeeker said:
I can tell you that first state IS and the second statement IS NOT what is articulated by the classical expressions regarding the Trinity that we see articulated by Athanasius and others.

One of your errant assertions is that classical trinity dogma has any merit whatsoever apart from support from Gods Living Word. Christ taught that few are being saved and that MANY are on the road to destruction (Luke 13/Matt 7), which means the commonly accepted articulated (heh) teachings on this Trinity Topic represent nothing more than a good counterfeit. The commonly accepted ERROR of denominationalism is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit = God, when in truth those are the three witnesses of The Word (Christ) we commonly know as the Son of God. Mark 1:1, John 1:34, etc.. Replacing the One God with ANYTHING is idolatry, whether you choose to use the Son of God as the your image of worship or any pagan idol. Most of your unsupported rambling requires no reply at all, but this is where your train jumps clean off the tracks . . .

GraceSeeker said:
Thus, I must disagree with Nathan's answer as well: It is true there is but one God, but though he quotes scripture, he misapplies it. When one says that the Father is God, this is true. But when one says that God is the Father and stops there, it is true only as far as it goes, yet to fully describe God it needs to go farther. We cannot forget Thomas' statement in John 20:28 when he greets Jesus following the resurrection: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'

This is the very place where the typical Jesus is God! idolater makes no Bible sense at all, as if this John 20 passage concerns the truth of Christs true identity. That was settled by John the Baptist in John 1:34 and Nathanael in John 1:49 and Christ Himself in John 3:16-18 (10:36). Peter and My Father who is IN HEAVEN closed this Jesus is the Son of God case in Matthew 16:15-17 in the very same way Mark did in Mark 1:1. Rather than believe Gods testimony concerning His Son (1Jn 5:9-13), you purposely misuse the statement of Doubting Thomas (for Petes sake . . .) to contradict their Jesus is the Son of God testimony. Every single idolater misusing these same verses (John 20:28-31) refuses to continue quoting from the passage, because in these words the Gospel writer himself tells everyone the true meaning behind the account. Thomas refused to believe this was really Jesus Christ who GOD raised from the dead, until he placed his hands within His wounds. The Gospel writer then says,

Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31.

Jesus Christ just told Mary not to touch Him for a very specific reason. He said,

Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" John 20:17.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He has a God and Father who raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:8-10. Jesus Christ addresses the Only True God, saying,

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ (speaking) whom You have sent. I glorified You (the Only True God) on the earth, having accomplished the work which You (the Only True God) have given Me (the Son of God) to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:3-5.

If Jesus is God (He is the Son of God), then just who do you believe He is talking about to Mary and calling My God and your God? If Jesus is God (He is the Son of God), then just who do you think He is praying to and addressing as the Only True God??? We see the One God AND the One Mediator Christ Jesus standing BETWEEN God and men (1Tim. 2:5), but somehow you want us to believe that Christ is the One Mediator AND the One God who raised Him from the dead. However, the Apostle Paul also uses the resurrection to prove beyond all doubt that Jesus Christ is most certainly the Son of God, saying (God and His Son*),

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son*, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God (just like John 20:30-31 above) with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ* our Lord. Romans 1:1-4.

If Jesus is God (He is the Son of God), then just who did your god raise from the dead on the third day? And who is Paul calling His Son?? The fact is that MANY members run around this place chanting their Jesus is God! mantra (He is the Son of God) without having one clue as to what they are even talking about. Doubting Thomas is giving glory TO GOD (My God and your God) for raising His Son from the dead. Period!

GraceSeeker said:
Thomas is not just giving praise to God the Father in greeting Jesus, the verse tells us that he is actually speaking TO Jesus and address him as "my God". And Jesus affirms Thomas in what he said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Bullony! GraceSeeker must read the following verses in their true context and use the truth of these verses lawfully, which clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (John 20:31), just like John the Baptist says in the very beginning. John 1:34. Not only are you using the words of Doubting Thomas (heh), but then you misinterpret the substance of his exclamatory remarks AND the conclusions presented by the Gospel writer himself. Rather that simply believe God's witnesses testifying about His Son, then you run chapter to chapter in search of fools gold for the construction of your very own golden calf of idolatry (like Israel running tent to tent in the wilderness).

GraceSeeker said:
Also, as Terral like to point out, the Word was God. What he fails to somehow understand is that Jesus is identified by scripture as this Word who is God (see John 1:1-5 & 14). So, again we have Jesus presented as God.

Bullony! You have Jesus presented as God!, while every witness in Scripture proclaims Him as the Son of God. John 1:34. Try reading the chapter down to John 1:34+49 and begin drawing Gods conclusions about the true identity of His Only Begotten Son OF GOD. John 3:16-18. The fact is that I fail to be blinded by your brand of idolatry and denominationalism, which is the very reason my testimony about the Son of God agrees 100 percent with all of Gods witnesses.

GraceSeeker said:
Even God himself refers to the Son as God.

Now that is a fine statement. I thought for a minute you were teaching everyone that Jesus is God. :0) Try to figure out which of these Bible Principals is God and which is His Only Begotten Son*:

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son*, whom He* appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrews 1:1-2.

God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ* our Lord. 1Corinthians 1:9.

For there is One God, and One Mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus* . . .. 1Timothy 2:5.

Do the bold type and asterisks* help you identify and distinguish the Only True God from His Only Begotten Son*, OR is the deluding influence (2Thes. 2:11) simply much too powerful to overcome? :0) Those blinded by their own idolatry are always the very last to know . . .

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

GraceSeeker · Apr 29, 2008

TruthMiner,

Well, you have my statements and you have Terral's. I encourage you to do as he said, read the statements in the Bible, read them in context, and decide for yourself --not because of what some present day pastor, a self-styled theologian, or some ancient church father has to say.

I think Terral fails to recognize that the biblical use of "Son of God" as a descriptor of Jesus is in no ways contradictory to the statement Jesus is God. Indeed, such a title was understood by the early church and also the Jews of Jesus' day to be tantamount to a proclamation of Jesus' divinity, hence they sought to stone him for heresy because "you [Jesus], a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33), and they thought the same when others asked him if he was the Son of God and his response to that was "You are right in saying I am." If in saying this Jesus did not also mean for them to understand this as a claim to divinity, then why would they have seen this as being blasphemy. (See Matthew 26:63-66; Mark 14:61-64; and Luke 22:67-71.)

To Terral this is only a statement that Jesus was the Son of God and nothing more. But to those who were present, who said, "we have heard it from his own lips" (Luke 22:71), this is meant more that Jesus was claiming to be divine, just as he did when he not only healed the paralytic but forgave his sins (Luke 5:17-26).

NathanCGreen · Apr 30, 2008

Okay... The Word became flesh, the man Jesus, the Son of God. The Word was god, not God. The Word was divine. Qualitative, not quantitative.

Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth

8, For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Simple enough, right? And so this explains what is meant by, "all things were made by him, and without him, nothing was made that was made." Of course, this was passage was written after Jesus had ascended, so is not referring to God's word as just that, but as an actual person, the Lord Jesus.

Hebrews is not saying that God has a God of His own... in no way. All it was referring to was Jesus' ascension to God's throne. The same thing is mentioned of King David. Does that make King David, God, too? Of course not! So, please, look more earnestly for truth. If only you could see the error in looking upon God as three in one... God is only One being, one person. The Lord that was being mentioned as the Spirit, is the Lord Jesus. When Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" he was taking Jesus' words seriously when he mentioned that anyone who has seen him, has seen the Father (God) also. When the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy, they were not accusing him of being God Himself, but because he was the Son of God, they (rightly) perceived Jesus to be equal with God. By the way, being equal with someone does not make you that particular someone. I could go on and in more detail, but I think it is up to the individual to study these things for themselves. But just remember, it is no small thing to make up a false god in your own mind. Jesus taught us to worship God in spirit and in truth.

Terral, when you say this:

"The three witnesses of spirit, blood and water are revealed from Genesis to Revelation, but only IF you have eyes from God to see."

Are you not giving away the fact that you are inserting unbiblical ideas into the equation? Anyone could just say that they are the ones with 'eyes from God' to see... and then just leave it at that. But I would prefer to be safe and stick with what is revealed. Think about it... If you wanted to convince us, why say things like that? Why don't you show us incontrovertible evidence of your position, one step at a time, to show us our errors and your 'correctness'?

Yeshua, the son of God, is not a trinity, he is the glorified sinless man. By the way... Did you get your idea about the holy spirit being represented by the 'water' from Augustine's writings?

Terral · Apr 30, 2008

Hi GraceSeeker:

I see you are pretending that Post #13 is not addressed to you in direct response to your feeble attempts to prove “Jesus is God” (He is the “Son of God”) in Post #12. This is a case of ‘some’ members trying to replace the “One God” with the “One Mediator” (Christ Jesus) of the same cotton picking verse. 1Timothy 2:5 (diagram). This is a case of some CF members doing everything within their power to replace the “Only True God” (Jn 17:3) who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom. 10:9) with “Jesus Christ” of the same verse. John 17:3. Scripture clearly says that “No one has seen GOD!!!! at any time . . .” (Jn 1:18), but some LC members insist that “Jesus is God!!,” even though the “Son of God” (John 1:34) is SEEN by even John the Baptist. Since their “Jesus is God!!!” (He is the “Son of God”) dogma makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER, then they stammer around playing shell games with God ‘and’ His Only Begotten Son in order to somehow justify their own idolatry. GraceSeeker has no intention of answering my standing supported arguments with anything at all, so he hauls out a blank sheet of paper to begin grandstanding before these readers in hopes that nobody will notice. :0)

GraceSeeker said:
Well, you have my statements and you have Terral's. I encourage you to do as he said, read the statements in the Bible, read them in context, and decide for yourself --not because of what some present day pastor, a self-styled theologian, or some ancient church father has to say.

Exactly who is GraceSeeker addressing in this Post #14 entry where once again there is no effort to even quote ONE of God’s witnesses on this topic? John the Baptist says Jesus Christ is the “Son of God” (John 1:34), just like Peter and “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” in Matthew 16:15-17. Christ Himself proclaims Himself to be the “Son of God” in John 10:36 and Revelation 2:18, but ‘he’ continues to teach that “Jesus is God” (He is the “Son of God”) without one regard for his very own DESTRUCTION of “His God and Father” who raised Him from the dead. We require no pastors, theologians or dead church fathers to add or take away from the eyewitness testimony of John the Baptist, Peter and God Himself testifying about “His Son.” One very important verse of Scripture says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday AND today AND forever.” Hebrews 13:8. Okay then. If all of these witnesses agree that Jesus Christ is most definitely the “Son of God” (Mark 3:11) AND Jesus Christ is the “same yesterday and today and forever,” then just when did Jesus Christ stop being the “SON OF GOD” to become His Own God and Father? :0) No sir. The sad truth is that MANY people will continue running too and fro shouting “Jesus is God!!!” (He is the “Son of God”) at the top of their lungs no matter what anyone says or does, because the ‘deluding influence’ is forcing them to “believe what is false” (2Thes 2:11) all of their days upon this earth.

GraceSeeker said:
I think Terral fails to recognize that the biblical use of "Son of God" as a descriptor of Jesus is in no ways contradictory to the statement Jesus is God.

Always lean upon “I think” testimony (heh), when you run out of “Jesus is God” (He is the “Son of God”) arguments. The “One God” is the ‘son’ of NOBODY!!! The “God” who raised our Lord Jesus Christ has never been seen by ANYONE. John 1:18. GraceSeeker must destroy either the “One God” OR His Only Begotten Son to prove that They represent the SAME PERSON. We have literally hundreds of verses that teach God ‘and’ His Only Begotten Son:

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ*, keep seeking the things above, where Christ* is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ* in God.” Colossians 3:1-3.

All of the “Jesus is God” idolaters must at some point address the question about how “Christ” (Son of God) is seated at the “RIGHT HAND OF GOD” (please excuse the CAPS) ‘and’ “Jesus is God!!!” at the very same time. :0) This lesson follows right along with Paul’s teaching in 1Timothy 2:5 where Christ Jesus (One Mediator) stands ‘BETWEEN God ‘and’ men,’ but somehow “Jesus is God” anyway. Please forgive, but to someone knowing the “One God” AND our Lord Jesus Christ very up close and personal, the idea of confusing the “Two” is not funny. Yes. God ‘and’ The Word (Christ = F+S+HS) are “ONE” and the same thing in God’s Infinite Realm. We can agree on that point every day of the week and twice on Sunday. However, God called this universe to exist “IN” His Son only after He commanded The Word to ‘incarnate’ to stand ‘with Him.’ That is the very reason you see the Word ‘was God’ in John 1:1, but the Word is then ‘with God’ in John 1:2. All things were then called into being “IN” God’s Son (The Word), according to the truth of John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17. Here are the verses standing together:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (One* = far left). He was in the beginning with God (Two = God’s Infinite Realm ‘and’ The Word Realm* in red). All things (This Creation/Adam* = far right in blue) came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” John 1:1-3.

“He (Christ = The Word) is the IMAGE of the Invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by (en) Him all things [This Creation*] were created, both in the heavens and on earth (far right of Fig 1 and bottom of Fig 2), visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and “IN” Him all things hold together.” Colossians 1:15-17.

God had to command “The Word” to incarnate and stand “with God,” so THEN all things in this universe (seen and unseen) could be called to exist “IN” Him (diagram); AND, so that ‘all things’ in this universe can be held together “IN” Him. God continues to be INFINITE so that heaven (Gen. 1:8 = between heavens and earth) AND the “highest heaven” (Gen. 1:1 = The Word Himself) cannot even contain Him. However, The Word (Christ) is ‘almost infinite’ as He contains and holds all things in this universe together as the Person the Apostle Paul knows as “Christ Jesus.” Christ Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit combined ‘three into the one’ (1Jn 5:8) in the same exact way you have a spirit (Father), soul (Son) and physical body (Holy Spirit = Helper). The fact that Christ Jesus holds all things in this universe IN Himself in NO WAY nullifies the absolute fact that He and God are still “ONE” and the same thing in God’s Infinite Realm right this moment.

The ONLY reason Scripture can teach that the Word ‘was God’ (John 1:1) is because we (men) are currently living within the envelope of ‘time and space’ where the Word has become incarnate in the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are NOT allowed to worship the incarnate “Son of God” (Christ) as “His God and Father,” because the entire “Word Realm” of His incarnation is ‘heaven’ of Genesis 1:1 AND God Himself forbids the worship of anything in heaven. Exodus 20:4. “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” is the ‘spirit witness’ of “The Word” made flesh and NOT to be confused with the “Only True God” (Jn 17:3) who sent His Only Begotten Son (F+S+HS) into this universe to save sinners. That is the very reason that I worship the “God” who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead (The Word sacrificed into F+S+HS) rather than replacing “The Almighty” with His Only Begotten Son. However, those among us who do NOT know the difference will continue destroying either God or His Son to create their own idol of worship AND because there is certainly a ‘deluding influence’ in the world.

GraceSeeker said:
Indeed, such a title was understood by the early church and also the Jews of Jesus' day to be tantamount to a proclamation of Jesus' divinity, hence they sought to stone him for heresy because "you [Jesus], a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33), and they thought the same when others asked him if he was the Son of God and his response to that was "You are right in saying I am." If in saying this Jesus did not also mean for them to understand this as a claim to divinity, then why would they have seen this as being blasphemy. (See Matthew 26:63-66; Mark 14:61-64; and Luke 22:67-71.)

I had hoped my debating adversary would simply make his “Jesus is God!!!” case without stooping to telling downright LIES. Jesus Christ claims to be “God!!!” nowhere in God’s Living Word at all. In fact, He presents Himself as the “Son of God” right here in John 10:

“ . . . do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?” John 10:36.

GraceSeeker has God’s witnesses like John the Baptist, Peter and Christ Himself all testifying that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God” (this is getting ridiculous), but he is here to teach something else entirely for his own reasons. This is a guy trying desperately to transform the “Son of God” into His Own God and Father, as if Christ can be at the “right hand of God” (heh) and “God!!!” Himself. :0) Go ahead and try to pin my distinguished debating adversary down on his logical explanation for how Christ is making intercession for the saints at the “right hand of God” (Rom. 8:34) AND “Jesus is God!!!” at the very same time. :0)

GraceSeeker said:
To Terral this is only a statement that Jesus was the Son of God and nothing more.

Mr. GraceSeeker is characterizing my views rather than simply “quoting >>” from my work to remove all doubt. Where does John the Baptist say “Jesus is God!!!”??? Anywhere? No. How about Peter and “My Father who is IN HEAVEN”?? Matt. 16:15-17? Where does Peter say, “Jesus is God!!!” anywhere in God’s Living Word? The truth is that GraceSeeker’s statement that “Jesus is God” is just ‘his’ statement that contradicts ‘all’ of God’s witnesses testifying on Christ’s true identity AND he does not know the difference between God ‘and’ His Only Begotten Son anymore than he knows the man on the cotton picking moon.

GraceSeeker said:
But to those who were present, who said, "we have heard it from his own lips" (Luke 22:71), this is meant more that Jesus was claiming to be divine, just as he did when he not only healed the paralytic but forgave his sins (Luke 5:17-26).

My debating adversary continues rambling on aimlessly like John the Baptist and everyone else testifies that “Jesus is God!!!” (He is the “Son of God”), when nothing like that appears anywhere except in the vain imaginations of deluded men. Many have fallen down somewhere between John 1:1 and John 1:34 and simply cannot get back up from their own idolatry.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Terral · Apr 30, 2008

Hi Nathan:

In the absence of any post title and no opening salutation to anyone and no ‘quotes >>’ from the posts above, then I am at a bit of a loss concerning the point you are attempting to make in this most recent reply. The pattern thus far shows that I quote your every word to give my words ‘context’ to something you ‘did’ actually say on this Trinity Topic, but you guys just open up a new window to start typing away until your heart is somewhat content. Since you do address me by name in the body of your post, then I will assume the entire reply is addressed to me.

NathanCGreen said:
Okay... The Word became flesh, the man Jesus, the Son of God. The Word was god, not God. The Word was divine. Qualitative, not quantitative.

No, no, no!! The first three verses of John 1 are contained within the Singularity Expression verse of Genesis 1:1 (diagram) with The Word (Christ = F+S+HS) being the “Light” of Genesis 1:3 and John 1:4-9. Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” of Genesis 2:4+ who formed Adam (the man of the earth) using His own two hands LONG before He incarnated upon this literal planet Earth as Jesus Christ. The “man” Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) of 1Timothy 2:5 (diagram) is the Heavenly Man (antichrist is the 'man' on the left side of this diagram) who contains THIS ENTIRE UNIVERSE even right this moment as we speak. The ‘incarnation’ of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35) is an antitype of the “Lamb of God” (diagram) incarnating in ‘heaven’ of this universe AND the antitype of Him incarnating into the womb of Mary being conceived of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:18-20). God had to sacrifice “The Word” BEFORE He (F+S+HS = Christ) was ever sent into this universe for which Calvary is also an antitype or fulfillment. Therefore, Jesus Christ’s walk from the manger to Calvary is an antitype of ‘three’ previous incarnations of the Word transformed (F+S+HS) AND the Lamb still very much ‘in heaven’ and the Lord God consecrating ‘her seed’ during this ‘seventh day’ that began in Genesis 2:1-4. Your ‘not God. The Word was divine. Qualitative . . .’ lingo has nothing to do with anything. This debate is NOT about what or who Nathan can transform the “Son of God” (John 1:34) to be in his private little universe. This deliberation process ‘is’ about what God teaches us concerning the true ‘identity’ of His Only Begotten Son that HE sent into the world to save sinners. These readers are being exposed to ‘your’ exercises in futility where vain attempts are being made to actually transform the “Son of God” into His Own God And Father who raised Him from the dead. I am here to defend ‘the truth’ that Jesus Christ is most certainly the “Son of God” according to ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word.

NathanCGreen said:
Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth

8, For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Nathan’s Commentary >> Simple enough, right? And so this explains what is meant by, "all things were made by him, and without him, nothing was made that was made." Of course, this was passage was written after Jesus had ascended, so is not referring to God's word as just that, but as an actual person, the Lord Jesus.

No sir. Nathan does not know the differences between the “Lord God” (The Almighty of Rev. 1:8) of our Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ as the “Lord God” of Genesis 2:4+. He runs back to the Psalms (heh) to make his “Jesus is God!!!” case (I am assuming), instead of simply consulting with God’s NT witnesses on the subject. John 1:34. The chief priests and Pharisees had all the OT Scriptures at their disposal ‘and’ the Lord God (Christ) appeared to them IN PERSON about 2000 years ago, but did that stop these religious leaders of that day from crucifying Him anyway? No. Jesus Christ Himself uses the Psalms in order to quiet these unbelieving Pharisees and I will do the same thing for you:

“Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put your enemies beneath your feet.”? "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?" No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.” Matthew 22:41-46.

Everyone can see the Hebrew from Psalm 110:1 where the two terms “Y@hovah*” and “’Adown**” are used for ‘The Lord* said to my Lord** . . .’. Jesus Christ is quoting David about “God” (The Lord*) telling His Only Begotten Son (The Lord**) to sit at “My right hand” where the Messiah (Christ is the Heavenly Messiah) is “Adown**” of this verse. Scripture again quotes David in Hebrews 1 to make this same point about God ‘and’ His Son where the Son is called “God” by the Father.

“But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His Kingdom.” Hebrews 1:8.

“But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? Hebrews 1:13.

If David calls our Lord Jesus Christ (Lord God of the OT) “Lord!,” then how can anyone here pretend for one moment that He is the ‘son’ of anyone at all?? :0) Jesus Christ Himself taught that the greatest born of women is John the Baptist (Matt. 11:11) AND Scripture teaches that He was ‘found in appearance AS A MAN.’ Philippians 2:8. The truth of these related teachings go far beyond the boundaries of this “Trinity” topic, so we will reserve those things for another debate. The point here is that Christ is the Lord (Y@hovah = Gen. 2:4) God of the Old Testament, but He has an inferior “Adown” relationship to “His God and Father” that is represented in the Hebrew of the OT Text. The fact that God called all things into being “IN” His Son does nothing to transform our Lord Jesus Christ into His Own God and Father.

NathanCGreen said:
Hebrews is not saying that God has a God of His own... in no way. All it was referring to was Jesus' ascension to God's throne.

If you really know the difference between Jesus Christ the “Son of God” AND God who raised Him from the dead, then stop playing these games and start agreeing with God’s NT witnesses like John the Baptist (John 1:34). If your only intention is to give “His Son” the title of “God,” then God Himself does that in Hebrews 1:8. :0)

NathanCGreen said:
The same thing is mentioned of King David. Does that make King David, God, too? Of course not! So, please, look more earnestly for truth. If only you could see the error in looking upon God as three in one... God is only One being, one person.

First of all, rambling aimlessly in these debates without ‘quoting >>’ anyone is throwing effort after foolishness, because nobody has a clue as to the context of your statements. Whose error are you even talking about? :0) Everyone knows the exact context of my statements TO YOU (Nathan), because I took two seconds to paste your comments from the “quote >>” options provided by these CF Board visionaries. Scripture declares “The Almighty” is THREE persons TO MEN in Revelation 1:8, saying,

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, The Almighty." Revelation 1:8.

God and The Word are indeed “ONE” and the same thing in God’s Infinite Realm where WE are also ‘gods’ (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34 far left of this diagram). Take a good look around the room and tell everyone here if THIS looks like God’s Infinite Realm to you?? :0) No. You are living within a ‘broken’ triune universe with ‘heavens’ (spirit witness) and a ‘heaven’ (blood witness) and a physical body making up the ‘earth’ (water witness) where WE (sons of God) have a ‘relationship’ with God (spirit witness) AND The Word (F+S+HS = blood witness) in the form of MERE MEN (spirit, soul and body). Since I am supposed to be assisting the members of Christ’s Body (Church #2 here ) come to a full knowledge of the “Son of God” (Eph. 4:13), then from our perspective IN time and space God most certainly has a ‘triune’ (past, present and future) nature just like you AND His Living Word (F+S+HS). I am more than happy to go into deeper detail on these things, when these CF members begin asking the right kinds of questions. At this moment you do NOT appear to even know the differences between God and His Only Begotten Son, so our immediate concern is graduating you from first grade . . .

NathanCGreen said:
The Lord that was being mentioned as the Spirit, is the Lord Jesus. When Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"

No sir. I have had it with your nonsense and stupidity based upon one verse from Doubting Thomas. The ‘deluding influence’ is very powerful indeed, but that is your problem and not mine . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

NathanCGreen · Apr 30, 2008

Terral said:
In the absence of any post title and no opening salutation to anyone and no quotes >> from the posts above, then I am at a bit of a loss concerning the point you are attempting to make in this most recent reply.

Well, I was replying to statements made by others like Graceseeker. Then I also addressed something you said by starting out with: Terral, when you say this:
Then I continued..

Terral said:
Your not God. The Word was divine. Qualitative . . . lingo has nothing to do with anything.

Actually, it has a lot to do with the writer's intention. John's gospel is presenting God the Father(Who is, was, and is to come) as making all things by his spoken word, and this word was as His seed, you could say, implanting into Mariam's womb to become the man Jesus, the son of God, whom God also made both Lord and Saviour of all who would come to him in faith. Your ramblings about three persons existing as god, is just plain silliness when you are deriving this from a simple statement that declares God was, is, and is to come. He is the Eternal One, who is truly not bound by His own creation, including time itself.

Terral said:
This debate is NOT about what or who Nathan can transform the Son of God (John 1:34) to be in his private little universe.

I know that Jesus is the Son of God.

Terral said:

Terral said:
This deliberation process is about what God teaches us concerning the true identity of His Only Begotten Son that HE sent into the world to save sinners.

Yes, God sent Jesus into the world to save sinners. What you don't seem to understand is the fact that the 'world' that is used here refers not to the earth itself, but to the community of the day. Just as Jesus sent his disciples into the world, God sent his son into the world. They were already living on the earth...
Do some proper research will ya...

Terral said:

Terral said:
These readers are being exposed to your exercises in futility where vain attempts are being made to actually transform the Son of God into His Own God And Father who raised Him from the dead. I am here to defend the truth that Jesus Christ is most certainly the Son of God according to the truth of Gods Living Word.

If you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that I do not refer to the Son of God as God Himself. There is but one God, the Father. And one Lord (God made him both Lord and Christ at his ascension), Jesus Christ.

Terral said:
No sir. Nathan does not know the differences between the Lord God (The Almighty of Rev. 1:8) of our Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ as the Lord God of Genesis 2:4+. He runs back to the Psalms (heh) to make his Jesus is God!!! case (I am assuming), instead of simply consulting with Gods NT witnesses on the subject.

What are you going on about now? Now you are referring to Jesus, the Son of God, as the Lord God...??? You are accusing me falsely. I have made no such case as declaring Jesus as God. Sorry sir, but you have made a major mistake.

Terral said:

Terral said:
John 1:34. The chief priests and Pharisees had all the OT Scriptures at their disposal and the Lord God (Christ) appeared to them IN PERSON about 2000 years ago,
but did that stop these religious leaders of that day from crucifying Him anyway?

See, you did it again! You are the one calling the only begotten son of God, God.

Terral said:
Everyone can see the Hebrew from Psalm 110:1 where the two terms Y@hovah* and Adown** are used for The Lord* said to my Lord** . . .. Jesus Christ is quoting David about God (The Lord*) telling His Only Begotten Son (The Lord**) to sit at My right hand where the Messiah (Christ is the Heavenly Messiah) is Adown** of this verse. Scripture again quotes David in Hebrews 1 to make this same point about God and His Son where the Son is called God by the Father.

Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation of Psalm 45:6. the RSV translates the original passage as, " Your divine throne endures for ever and ever." (Psalm 45:6)
The Greek text literally reads, "the throne of you the god to the age of the age."
The writer of Hebrews is simply saying that Jesus is exalted to the throne of God in heaven and as such he is not trying to demonstrate that "Jesus is God" but that Jesus has ascended to the throne of God and is therefore above the angels with all authority.
"He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Revelation 3:21).

As to David's throne, it is God's throne, for it was established by Him. This is similar to 1 Chronicles 29:23 which says, "Then Solomon sat on the throne of YAHWEH as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him." This is the divinely established throne God established through his covenant with David, "Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever" (2 Samuel 7:16), and concerning Jesus the Messiah we are reminded of this same covenant promise by Luke, "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David" (1:35). Clearly, this passage is not a reference to the King as "God" but to the divine establishment of his throne. We have the very same situation here in Hebrews 1:8.

Terral said:

Terral said:
AND Scripture teaches that He was found in appearance AS A MAN. Philippians 2:8.

Even though he had the quality of being God's very own Son.
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross."(KJV)

The part in bold is there to show how Jesus could have been proud about his royal status as God's very own son, but did no such thing. This attitude is encouraged for all of God's adopted sons and daughters. They are royalty, so long as they are in Christ (therefore the elect), walking not according to the evil desires of the flesh, but according to God's holy spirit, in good works.

Terral said:

Terral said:
If your only intention is to give His Son the title of God, then God Himself does that in Hebrews 1:8. :0)

It seems as though it is your intention to give Jesus the title of God Almighty, not mine. God does not call Jesus, God in Hebrews 1:8 or anywhere else for that matter.

Terral · May 1, 2008

Hi Nathan:

NathanCGreen said:
Actually, it has a lot to do with the writer's intention. John's gospel is presenting God the Father (Who is, was, and is to come) as making all things by his spoken word, and this word was as His seed, you could say, implanting into Mariam's womb to become the man Jesus, the son of God, whom God also made both Lord and Saviour of all who would come to him in faith. Your ramblings about three persons existing as god, is just plain silliness when you are deriving this from a simple statement that declares God was, is, and is to come. He is the Eternal One, who is truly not bound by His own creation, including time itself.

Very good. At least you appear to be recognizing the difference between God and His Only Begotten Son. :0)

NathanCGreen said:
I know that Jesus is the Son of God.

Yes. The fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is also known by John the Baptist, Peter, Jesus Christ and God . . . Perhaps the day will come when Nathan is ready to understand the triune nature of The Almighty in the three Persons (third row down) of God To Come (spirit witness = Prophet like Elijah/Father), God Who Is (blood witness = King like The Son) and God Who Was (water witness = Priest/Helper like the Holy Spirit and Moses), but that is the topic of another thread. GL.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

GraceSeeker · May 1, 2008

Teral,

I posted this in another thread where you have yet to respond.

Teral, for all of your wordage, it seems that your basic point comes down to this:

Since scripture declares Jesus to be "the son of God", it therefore means that he is NOT God. I assume that this is because you assume that one cannot be termed "the son of God" and be God at the same time.

Have I stated your view correctly?

Could you address that, please. I'm just trying to be sure I understand your position on this. Thank-you.

Are both these statements true?

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