Fight in the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem

Thekla · Apr 28, 2008

respectfully submitted:

we have bombed Serbia twice on their Pascha (1944, 1999); the US stance re: FYROM (with potentially disputed territory including Mt. Athos per the State Dept. map), Cyprus, our (in)action during the burning of Smyrna, our failure to address the problems of the EPatriarch and the Halki, our rocky relationship with Russia, our silence on the Orthodox Palestinian plight, and statements like the following:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]a speech Henry Kissinger gave some three years prior, during which he said the following:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] The Greek people are a difficult if not impossible people to tame, and for this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots. Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.[/FONT]

etc, etc,

may lead one to the conclusion that this nation is hardly friendly toward EOrthodoxy

E.C. · Apr 28, 2008

ThePilgrim said:
I'm not sure that our country's foreign policy is deliberately anti-Orthodox, although it is certainly quite deliberately anti-Russian and anti-Russian influence, and that leads us into making a lot of anti-Orthodox foreign policy decisions.

Grace and peace,
John

The West has always viewed Slavic culture as being completely backward, barbaric and with all other views of inferiority towards anything Slavic. Most of this is because when the Mongols stormed across the Steppe and leaked into Eastern Europe; they took all the architects, artisans and other culturally important people over to their own cities.

That and terrible stories of folks like Ivan the Terrible are put on pedastals whilst the good things that others like Alexander II did are scarcely mentioned.

Sadly, along with this backward view of Slavs that the West has always had, many things like backward views of Orthodoxy and others have been fused in. Even backward views of Caucasians (Georgians, Armenians, etc) are fused with it.

With the Orthodoxy, the criticism is lack of development with regards to doctrine and faith. But the fact that we do not need development is brushed under the rug (like the Norther Crusades).

This view will probably never change.

Although, isn't it ironic that we (US government) helped al-Qaida in Afghanistan in the 1980s and Bosnia in the 1990s and yet we are after their head honcho? Oh, the irony!

Xpycoctomos · Apr 28, 2008

ThePilgrim said:
I'm not sure that our country's foreign policy is deliberately anti-Orthodox, although it is certainly quite deliberately anti-Russian and anti-Russian influence, and that leads us into making a lot of anti-Orthodox foreign policy decisions.

Grace and peace,
John

That's more the point I wanted to make, although didn't have the clarity to do so. Thank you.

What we are percieving as state-run religious persecution is really a by-product of mere politics. We could look at how the US has historically treated South America and Mexico and theorize that therefore our government is anti-catholic.

The fact is that our government is western (and Orthodox countries aren't, not even Greece really by many standards... at least in recent history) and rich and the only way to bridge that gap is with oil and cheap labor (ie power) which doesn't actually even make things more friendly but rather merely forces us to to be friends with people our gov otherwise has nothing in common with and would just assume otherwise eradicate (ie China and Saudi Arabia).

Xpy

Xpycoctomos · Apr 28, 2008

EmperorConstantine said:
The West has always viewed Slavic culture as being completely backward, barbaric and with all other views of inferiority towards anything Slavic. Most of this is because when the Mongols stormed across the Steppe and leaked into Eastern Europe; they took all the architects, artisans and other culturally important people over to their own cities.

That and terrible stories of folks like Ivan the Terrible are put on pedastals whilst the good things that others like Alexander II did are scarcely mentioned.

Sadly, along with this backward view of Slavs that the West has always had, many things like backward views of Orthodoxy and others have been fused in. Even backward views of Caucasians (Georgians, Armenians, etc) are fused with it.

With the Orthodoxy, the criticism is lack of development with regards to doctrine and faith. But the fact that we do not need development is brushed under the rug (like the Norther Crusades).

This view will probably never change.

Although, isn't it ironic that we (US government) helped al-Qaida in Afghanistan in the 1980s and Bosnia in the 1990s and yet we are after their head honcho? Oh, the irony!

So, you would rther the US supported the godless oppressive communist regime of the USSR in the 1980s? I'm not saying we made a good choice.... but that was hardlt an affront against Orthodoxy.

Guys I am not saying our gov is pro-Orthodox... it's pro power, period.

E.C. · Apr 28, 2008

Xpycoctomos said:
So, you would rther the US supported the godless oppressive communist regime of the USSR in the 1980s? I'm not saying we made a good choice.... but that was hardlt an affront against Orthodoxy.

Guys I am not saying our gov is pro-Orthodox... it's pro power, period.

No, but with the Cold War sentiments as they were, there was a lot of "Get the Russians!" attitude.

With the Cold War supposedly over, the sentiment is still here. Mix the Orthodoxy in with a bit of Protestant anti-anything-vaguely-Roman-Catholic-ish feeling and the "Get the Russians!" attitude is still around.

I'm actually reminded of how Hitler's Aryan ideology thought of the Slavs as slaves. In a way, the West kinda thinks that because with many issues (Kosovo, missile defense, accusations towards Putin's government, etc) the West makes a decision and expect Eastern Europe to jump and follow through (think Kosovo).

Thekla · Apr 28, 2008

Xpycoctomos said:
What we are percieving as state-run religious persecution is really a by-product of mere politics. We could look at how the US has historically treated South America and Mexico and theorize that therefore our government is anti-catholic.

uh, Xpy,

early Christians were deemed a threat to the state.
When Christians are named as an obstacle to policy, whether RCatholic (as your mention), Orthodox (see Kissinger quote), or conflict is deliberately couched in religious terminology (Serbia, where baptized Orthodox were statistically a minority), one must consider whether the motive or the attack is more indicative.

GBTWC · Apr 28, 2008

Whats up with the ladder I guess theres a ladder there thats been there for like 100 years becouse there fighting over who gets to clean the windows?

Rick of Wessex · Apr 28, 2008

Rkman said:
The sad thing is this whole sharing of Churches thing. Holly places in Jerusalem rightfully belong to Jerusalem Patriarchate jurisdiction and no one else. Catholics and Orientals wouldnt be willing to share their churches in Rome and Jerevan with Orthodox and for this reason they should be kicked out of holly places. God willing Russia becomes powerful enough one day to enforce this.

Agreed.

What caught my eye was this:

BBC said:
In this case, witnesses say an Armenian priest forcibly ejected a Greek priest from an area near the tomb of Jesus.

They say the attacker felt the Greek priest had spent too long at the tomb.

I wonder why the Armenians are always responsible for starting these fights...

Rick

E.C. · Apr 28, 2008

Rick of Wessex said:
I wonder why the Armenians are always responsible for starting these fights...

Rick

Not always. I think in this case the story was that the Armenians were waiting for their turn and got impatient.

I believe that recently the Copts and Ethiopians were feuding over a small space.

Xpycoctomos · Apr 29, 2008

EmperorConstantine said:
No, but with the Cold War sentiments as they were, there was a lot of "Get the Russians!" attitude.

With the Cold War supposedly over, the sentiment is still here. Mix the Orthodoxy in with a bit of Protestant anti-anything-vaguely-Roman-Catholic-ish feeling and the "Get the Russians!" attitude is still around.

I'm actually reminded of how Hitler's Aryan ideology thought of the Slavs as slaves. In a way, the West kinda thinks that because with many issues (Kosovo, missile defense, accusations towards Putin's government, etc) the West makes a decision and expect Eastern Europe to jump and follow through (think Kosovo).

I can see that. That's reasonable (I remember the "get the russians" days... I think they are coming back.).

I just don't like it when we look to be the victim. It's not a religious persecution... it's a political persecution and the religious stuff is simply an innoncent bystander. No one can convince me that US policy prefers Islam over Orthodox Christianity. I believe Kosovo was wholly politically motivated and the fact that they are Muslim and the Serbs are Orthodox was only in the Serbs' favor. Obviously not enough, but it seemed that in bringing up the US' position on Kosovo, some were trying to suggest that the US prefered the Muslims because we are more comfortable with Islam than we are with the catholicky, backward people, and that, to me, is compleltely absurd.

It may be unjust... but what the US is doing is not a religious persecution from what I can see. And, I don't think what the media is doing is in any way persecuting the Church. It is simply reporting a story that happened and that I have no reason to really doubt since we hear about this every year.

In the end, my beef is that we should stop looking to blame the government and media for our woes and first look at ourselves. Obviously there are other circumstances where religious persecution is rampant and very real and explicit (Egypt, hwo the Kosovars persecute the serbs for religiously motivated reasons, China, Iraq, etc.) which is all the more reason (to me) why we should be careful not to cry wolf so as not to downplay the real religious oppression that happens all over the world.

Xpy

Xpycoctomos · Apr 29, 2008

Thekla said:
uh, Xpy,

early Christians were deemed a threat to the state.
When Christians are named as an obstacle to policy, whether RCatholic (as your mention), Orthodox (see Kissinger quote), or conflict is deliberately couched in religious terminology (Serbia, where baptized Orthodox were statistically a minority), one must consider whether the motive or the attack is more indicative.

I cannot stand patronizing "uh"s and phrases. Just talk to me. Please don't um and er at me like I'm dumb. It's a very annoying chatboard habit that people would not use in real life if they were talking in person.

Look, Thekla, it is obvious that you are bent on being the victim.

Here are the facts: In many places in Europe, Greece is seen as a backward country. I remember very clearly when I was in spain as Greece was preparing for the Olympics. NO ONE was surprised that Greece was so amazingly behind schedule because, by western standards Greece is considered (according to the many people there I talked to about this... and the reason I talked about it becuase I had a friend there from Greece so the issue came up a lot) to be backward. Things don't get done when they should, money goes missing, etc. Now, I don't know any of this first hand, so it may all be false, but the perception is that one of the very few reasons that Greece is even part of the EU is for symbolic reasons (as the cradle of democracy) and to offer a buffer zone (much how Romania and Slovakia are being used now). I remember when I was there a newsstory about Greece and how it's membership in the EU was being questioned becuase a lot of the money being sent there by the EU was not bettering the country's economy in anyway.

Again, all of that may be false. I am not an expert on Greece or Greek culture. However, it does tell me that at the very least, Greece is still not fully Western (and I am not suggesting that it SHOULD be). Spain and to an extent Italy always had a problem in the past because of the perceptions of how different their culture was from the rest of Western Europe. Spain (and I guess Italy) have done a lot over the years to "catch up" and be more like the rest of Western Europe. Greece is, apparently not there.

Another thing, in all of my conversations with my friends and classmates in Spain and anything I heard on the news, not once was religion brought up as part of the problem. So, no one assumed that they were "backward" becuase of their religion.

And, if you look at Kissinger's nefarious words (and I agree, they are creepy... but, it pretty much reflects the creepiness of our machiavalian political "strategery" as Bush might say) he is no way naming the religion (ie Orthodoxy) as the PROBLEM. He's saying, "Look, these people are backwards. We need to completely undermine their culture and everything that is dear to them in order to control them. That includes their religion." and that was one of a litany of other aspects brought up. It's not about Orthodoxy (as much as we would love believe that... because that makes us the victim and that makes us persecuted and that makes us feel we have some connection with the martyrs of the Church), it's about Greek culture and wanting to turn it upside down. If you read Machiavelli's The Prince, this is a classic strategy.

Now, back to the main point, I don't believe that the AP or Reuters has anything against us Orthodox. IN fact, I would suggest that they have it in much more for the Fundamentalist Protestants. I also don't believe they love Orthodoxy. I think... they thought it was an intriguing story and they are right, it is. It's like a freak show, really.

Xpycoctomos · Apr 29, 2008

Anyway, I've spoken enough... er... too much in here and I know that I am annoying the peacelovers (and they are right to be annoyed). So, I will give my dissenters the last word just becasue my dragging this out is getting silly at best. (not to mention OT).

Honestly the issue that is being discussed (the OT issue) is much more complicated than we are probably giving it credit.

Sorry to the innoncent bystanders.

Xpy

Thekla · Apr 29, 2008

I cannot stand patronizing "uh"s and phrases. Just talk to me. Please don't um and er at me like I'm dumb. It's a very annoying chatboard habit that people would not use in real life if they were talking in person.

sorry, I didn't mean to offend; it was more like an "ay yi yi", which I don't know how to spell

anotherwords, I thought (heard) this as being conversational rather than "didactic" in tone

Look, Thekla, it is obvious that you are bent on being the victim.

I am not aware of that as a motivation; rather, I am considering longstanding practice in media for my possibly flawed conclusion.
H. Clinton's recent ' faux pas' re: sniper fire seemed to come from "overlearning" the demonization of the Serbs. Concerning that ruckus, Patriarch Pavle's peace/protest march seemed not to get media attention. Couple this with reports (I'd need to search further) of, IIRC, Bosnia hiring a US Public Relations firm to help with their "image"... and flash back to Guatemala, or was it the Dominican Republic, in the 50s ?, when thre was a concerted effort to "redefine" their image (negatively) in the US. Or the reporting on the Philippines, early in this century. This sort of thing is not new. In the 80s, especially, the "type" of Christianity (mirroring the Philippines) was identified and described negatively. And the Guatemala of the 80's is again an example of this; Catholicism was identified as a problematic category.
The media shows bias in several ways, but one of them is where "sympathy" is shown. Were the actions of the "good Serbs" (per our reckoning) not reported in order to disallow an "inconvenient" sympathy ? Likewise, in the Chiapas "Christmas massacre",why did the US reporting (at least that I read) fail to mention that 40plus of the victims were huddled in a Church praying, members of the Catholic pacifist group "la Abejas" (the bees) . Certainly, if that were known, sympathies could shift.

So when re-characterizationand/or anti-sympathetic treatment pops up, I am reminded that like Hillary Clinton, the media may have "over-learned" the lesson it was "taught" ...

EDITed to be more clear

Yeznik · Apr 29, 2008

Rick of Wessex said:
Agreed.

What caught my eye was this:

I wonder why the Armenians are always responsible for starting these fights...

Rick

Rick I see your attitude toward Armenians still hasn't change. So here is another side of the story.

But in the end both sides loses face.

Armenian clergymen and laymen engaged in a scuffle with Greek Orthodox clergymen during the Holy Palm Sunday ceremony in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on April 20.

According to participants of the ceremony, a Greek clergyman, who, according to the status-quo, has no right to be present in the site of the Holy Sepulchre during the Armenian procession, was present there and as a result was forced out.

The Israeli Police was quick to respond by calling tens of their men in order to allow the Greek clergyman to return to his post, an action which led to deterioration of the situation.

Two Armenians were arrested once the procession was over, which led to a protest by the Armenians in front of the police station (next to the Armenian Convent of St. James) till the two were released.

Meanwhile, one of participants of the ceremony, Apo Sahagian told PanARMENIAN.Net that when the Armenian priests entered Christs grave (which is part of the sermon) they were surprised to see an Israeli cop and a Greek priest.

While the Greek priest left the grave, a struggle broke out between the cop (whom called backup) and the Armenian clergyman and civilians. The police did use violence against the clergyman, and did threaten many civilians during the scuffle. Many Armenian clergymen and civilians intervened to end the fight, which they successfully did. However, the police still threatened to arrest the Armenians, especially many young men, Apo Sahagian said in his message.

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=25807

I agree with the Greek Patriarch wholeheartedly:

"We don't want to have more problems like this because they damage and destroy the image and the spirit of such events that are really very unique," the 56-year-old patriarch said of last week's fight.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iC5t9-VCoG_JtKxn5leWe5BD1CPwD909MSG80

Yeznik · Apr 29, 2008

Rkman said:
The sad thing is this whole sharing of Churches thing. Holly places in Jerusalem rightfully belong to Jerusalem Patriarchate jurisdiction and no one else. Catholics and Orientals wouldn’t be willing to share their churches in Rome and Jerevan with Orthodox and for this reason they should be kicked out of holly places. God willing Russia becomes powerful enough one day to enforce this.

Well…considering Armenians were living in Jerusalem before the time of Christ, and there is a current Armenian Quarter:

Your statement is a very hard sell considering there are several Patriarch’s of Jerusalem regardless if you accept them or not. Also it would be completely and utter silly if the Armenians stopped letting other Churches into their quarter to visit holy sites.

Regarding an EO Patriarch visiting the Etchmiadzin Cathedral in Armenia, please let me know who would like to visit and I will try my best in making arrangements.

One point I would agree with you on is that when the Russian Orthodox becomes powerful enough, I would also add to the list the American Orthodox Church as well. Armenia and Russian have very close socio-political ties, Russia is basically the big brother looking after Armenia the little brother and recently the Churches of Armenia and Russian have started to open in dialogs. And in the U.S. there are Armenian seminarians attending Saint Vlad’s in New York and the Armenian Seminary and Saint Vlad’s have a very close relationship with each and growing day by day. And personally after reading Saint Theophan the Recluse and the current attitude of Russia towards Armenia, I have become a little bit of a Russophile.

buzuxi02 · Apr 29, 2008

well if its any consolation, i read that in the Service of the Anastasi , the greek and armenian pilgrims teamed up and fought with Isreali police for not allowing them in the church.

Philothei · Apr 29, 2008

Here are the facts: In many places in Europe, Greece is seen as a backward country. I remember very clearly when I was in spain as Greece was preparing for the Olympics. NO ONE was surprised that Greece was so amazingly behind schedule because, by western standards Greece is considered (according to the many people there I talked to about this... and the reason I talked about it becuase I had a friend there from Greece so the issue came up a lot) to be backward. Things don't get done when they should, money goes missing, etc. Now, I don't know any of this first hand, so it may all be false, but the perception is that one of the very few reasons that Greece is even part of the EU is for symbolic reasons (as the cradle of democracy) and to offer a buffer zone (much how Romania and Slovakia are being used now). I remember when I was there a newsstory about Greece and how it's membership in the EU was being questioned becuase a lot of the money being sent there by the EU was not bettering the country's economy in anyway.

Again, all of that may be false. I am not an expert on Greece or Greek culture. However, it does tell me that at the very least, Greece is still not fully Western (and I am not suggesting that it SHOULD be). Spain and to an extent Italy always had a problem in the past because of the perceptions of how different their culture was from the rest of Western Europe. Spain (and I guess Italy) have done a lot over the years to "catch up" and be more like the rest of Western Europe. Greece is, apparently not there.

Another thing, in all of my conversations with my friends and classmates in Spain and anything I heard on the news, not once was religion brought up as part of the problem. So, no one assumed that they were "backward" becuase of their religion.

what does this have to do with anything???

if Greeks culturally are more like Mexicans or they are lazy that means they deserve to be misstreated and justifies Kissinger's policy??? hahahaha at best your statetments made me laugh... pure excuses...for what??

it's about Greek culture and wanting to turn it upside down. If you read Machiavelli's The Prince, this is a classic strategy.

Now you got to be kidding me... that gives any right for another nation to mandlte with its customes??? What you say is totally absurd my friend... US policy has been such not only for Greece but elsewhere... Zaping someone's heritage is "not done for their best interest" that is for sure... Anyways we see how our heritage is distorted many times over and over... i.e. Turkey claiming the Ancient ruins as Turkish... and Modern time Macedonia (FYROM) claiming our heritage and our name... But it is okay no matter how you try to turnish someone's name ..."what comes around always goes around" since God is with us and with EO people everywhere... We do hold the truth... no matter how hard the blows come... We suffered 400 years of misery and slavery that ought to do it for ya....

Greetings...

Vasileios · Apr 29, 2008

Although i am not sure why Xry mentions the Greek problems (which are true btw, although I wouldn't call Greeks backwards people, just a corrupted bureacracy system), he most surely does not support any actions against Greek culture. Calling methods macchiavellian is not a compliment.

As for the topic, I think I tend to agree with Thekla. The point is Orthodoxy is the uniting force of a lot of people in the Balkans and the Russians. Even if the ultimate motives of the powers that be are political, the issue is that Orthodoxy is a very specific target.

I am not sure that this specific case is an example of the general problem, but I will note that I have never ever seen the news about Israelis behaving terribly in Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and there are many instances. So at least there is a bias there.

Philothei · Apr 29, 2008

In many places in Europe, Greece is seen as a backward country.

Have you ever visited Greece and another place in Europe to make the comparisson. I literally do not appreciate your "putting down" remarks to my country that after all you have no eyewittnessed. We might be "backwards" and so are many places in US up in the mountains somewhere... that does not mean the whole country is...

Also the Olympic games were proven the best of all times, for the safety, and organization despite the bad cassandras who wanted Greece to fail so they can "joyfully point the finger" to us... Do you know that the studio for NBC (I think they covered the olympics) was made exclusively out of marble? The American journalists were suprised at the cleaniless, organization and politeness of the organizers... Have you visited our Airport? our subways? The concept of having "mini-meuseums" as we retrived so much from the excavations, building the subway in Athens...
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080311/101069458.html

Oh yeah we are so backwards.....lol....^ feast your eyes on the marble ......

Here are some samples of what it has been accomplished in three years.. Do you also know that the population in Greece is only 10 million? compare to what England or Spain with 40 million at least.... We are a tiny guy Xry, how uncharitable... though.....

and ungratefull for a country that has given so much to the world ...

I rest my case....

buzuxi02 · Apr 30, 2008

Spain???? Isnt all countries which speak the spanish language considered third world? Hasnt Spain been fighting a civil war against some group known as basques for a few centuries now and they cant settle it?

Fight in the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem

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