Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin

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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Christopher Paul
Ref-

The truth does set us free. So, would you please refer to my previous post and offer your opinion of this proof of intercessionary requests changing God's mind?

What, the thing with Mary?
 
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Originally posted by Christopher Paul
He allowed her to change His mind

So you believe Mary "changed God's mind?"

What?  Did God make the wrong decision the first time and then He was like, "You know what Mom, you're right.  I didn't realize they were out of wine.  But, hey, now that you told me, well, I guess I'd better do what you say."

CP, do you think it was just coincidence that God was at the perfect place, at the perfect time, so that He could show His power?

God bless
 
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Originally posted by Reformationist
So you believe Mary "changed God's mind?"

What?  Did God make the wrong decision the first time and then He was like, "You know what Mom, you're right.  I didn't realize they were out of wine.  But, hey, now that you told me, well, I guess I'd better do what you say."

CP, do you think it was just coincidence that God was at the perfect place, at the perfect time, so that He could show His power?

God bless

He said it wasn't His time.  Either He was being truthful, or not, right?

If He was being turthful, which we all agree, then it wasn't His time, and He allowed Mary to change His mind. 
 
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Originally posted by Christopher Paul
He said it wasn't His time.  Either He was being truthful, or not, right?

If He was being turthful, which we all agree, then it wasn't His time, and He allowed Mary to change His mind. 

That's what I'm asking you.  Do you believe that Mary changed God's mind?
 
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Originally posted by Reformationist
That's what I'm asking you.  Do you believe that Mary changed God's mind?

Absolutely.  There isn't anything in God's Word that is just there for no reason.  That conversation was VERY important and telling.  He says, ""Woman, what does this concern me? It is not my time." But then He did it anyway.  Right after, she says, "Do whatever He tells you"

Powerful stuff!

There are other examples of righteous people changing God's mind, as well, mostly from the OT.

Now, God being all-knowing, knew in advance what would be asked of Him, but that doesn't mean He doesn't respond to prayers, as there are many examples in scripture to support this idea.

 
 
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Originally posted by Christopher Paul
Absolutely.  There isn't anything in God's Word that is just there for no reason.  That conversation was VERY important and telling.  He says, ""Woman, what does this concern me? It is not my time." But then He did it anyway.  Right after, she says, "Do whatever He tells you"

So God, being completely righteous, omniscient, and the ruler over all had His mind changed by a creation?  Did He make the wrong decision the first time? 

There are other examples of righteous people changing God's mind, as well, mostly from the OT.

Man.  I just can't get on board with people who say that though God knows all He changed His mind?  What did He do, make the wrong decision on purpose?

God bless
 
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What did He do, make the wrong decision on purpose?

No He didn't make the wrong decisions, heh, He allowed His creations to interact with Him, out of love.

So, you have my opinion, what is yours?  Did Mary change His mind, or did He not tell the truth when He said it wasn't His time? ;)
 
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Originally posted by Christopher Paul
No He didn't make the wrong decisions, heh, He allowed His creations to interact with Him, out of love.

Come on man.  That sounds like your sidestepping.  You say God knows all yet His creation can change His mind.  Either He purposely makes the wrong decisions so they can "interact with Him, out of love" or He realizes it's the wrong decision after He's made it, which would go against the whole "perfect, righteous, omniscient" thing that God has going on.  Which is it?  Or is there another option?

Thanks,

God bless
 
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Originally posted by Reformationist
Come on man.  That sounds like your sidestepping.  You say God knows all yet His creation can change His mind.  Either He purposely makes the wrong decisions so they can "interact with Him, out of love" or He realizes it's the wrong decision after He's made it, which would go against the whole "perfect, righteous, omniscient" thing that God has.  Which is it?  Or is there another option?

Thanks,

God bless

There is another option, and it does not mean that He makes "wrong decisions," because that is ludicrous, as we both know.

 He has a plan, and that plan includes allowing His creations to interact with Him, because it pleases Him.  He likes to be glorified and worshipped, through His creations asking for His help.  He knows who and what will be asked of Him, in advance, but that doesn't mean He causes it, kind of like the entire Fall.

 
 
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Originally posted by Christopher Paul
Did Mary change His mind

No,

 

or did He not tell the truth when He said it wasn't His time?

And no. 

So, you have my opinion, what is yours?  ;)

I believe that God "works all things to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose."  Not Mary's purpose.  I believe God orchestrated the events that happened exactly as they needed to be to fulfill His Plan to glorify Himself.

God bless
 
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I believe God orchestrated the events that happened exactly as they needed to be to fulfill His Plan to glorify Himself.

So do I. Here is the kicker. God is so powerful that He can incorporate Mary's request into His plan, before she even made it.

With all due respect, I believe you are stuck thinking in linear time, whereas with God, time is not linear.
 
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Originally posted by Christopher Paul
So do I. Here is the kicker. God is so powerful that He can incorporate Mary's request into His plan, before she even made it.

Okay.  So here's the real kicker.  Do you believe Mary's request made a difference one way or the other?  What I'm asking is, do you believe that Mary's request was the reason He chose to change the water to wine.  Or do you think it was part of His plan all along? 

With all due respect, I believe you are stuck thinking in linear time, whereas with God, time is not linear.

Well, being that I live in "linear time" and I'm not God I don't have a whole lot of practice thinking another way.  I can guess what it's like to think eternally but the only thing I can think of in that context is God.  I don't think that's the problem anyway.  It seems to me that you think God is this being that looked at time/looked down through time and formulated His Plan based on what would happen.  Is that what you think?

God bless
 
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