Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin

Originally posted by Gabriel
We wouldn't know or care.  That's the point we are trying to make.  if you are not elect, you have a heart of stone and no desire for God.

When you came to Christ was it like buying a vacuum?  You needed it so you figured, "What the heck, the sooner the better."  Or did you feel a stirring inside you, a love that began to grow for God that wasn't there before?

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With all due respect Gabriel I'd like to remind you of a testimony we heard the other day from a wise and discerning former Calvinist.  He said that he has witnessed first hand individuals who struggle so much with sin and who also believe the extreme reformed doctrines of election---that they actually believe they are NOT one of the elect.   I think that would be absolutely terrifying.

 

Originally posted by Gabriel
We are being truthful.  What I am saying and scripture reflects is that you won't believe unless the spirit takes your heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh.  Ezekiel 11:19&20

Reference to the world is made to specify that salvation is available to Jew and Gentile, ALL nations, ALL races.

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So if I don't agree with your interpretation of those verses in Romans, etc, then my heart is "of stone" and I am not one of the elect?

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
With all due respect Gabriel I'd like to remind you of a testimony we heard the other day from a wise and discerning former Calvinist.  He said that he has witnessed first hand individuals who struggle so much with sin and who also believe the extreme reformed doctrines of election---that they actually believe they are NOT one of the elect.   I think that would be absolutely terrifying.

 

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God gives his children assurance.  If they lack assurance perhaps there is ongoing sin in their life that would make them wonder, "If I am a child of God why do I continue this sin?"  Perhaps this fear is part of their growing process.  Who knows?  I have never met anyone who felt this way.  Last night we had a mission meeting and I asked several other men in the church if they had ever met anyone with this great fear and I was told no at every turn.  While some had met and counseled people that were unsure and had to be prayed with and for, as well as educated further in the scriptures that assure us, this terror was not found.  I would submit that the person who posted that didn't do an adequate job of directing the person in fear to all the scripture that gives us assurance while also pointing out the fruits of their salvation that should be evident in every christian's life. 

While this is a point that makes me feel sorry for anyone who may feel this way, it does not justify the denial of plain and evident scripture support for this doctrine that I see at every turn.

it does not justify the denial of plain and evident scripture support for this doctrine that I see at every turn.

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What about the "plain and evident" scripture that contradicts the idea of election? Would you be interested in discussing it?

Thanks

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
So if I don't agree with your interpretation of those verses in Romans, etc, then my heart is "of stone" and I am not one of the elect?

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My reference to belief was that belief in the need for Christ as a saviour.

Although some believe that if you don't understand and believe this doctrine you may not be saved, I do not believe this and rally against it when I hear it presented.  I don't see how you can interpret it any other way, however.  Verse 16 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."  Verse 18 "So then He has mercy upon whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires."  Verse 21&22 "Or does not the potter have right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and one for common use?  What if God although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"

Tell me them, all these verses I have given yopu throughout my posts.  Address them.  What do they mean to you and why?

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
What about the "plain and evident" scripture that contradicts the idea of election? Would you be interested in discussing it?

Thanks

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Of course.  For if you study the context it is not so evident against election.

I would like to say though that I have to pick up my kids from school, start dinner and go to prayer so I will be unable to address anything until tonight or perhaps tomorrow.  I assume that Don will pick up where I left off and if not, I will be back.

 

Originally posted by Gabriel
Of course.  For if you study the context it is not so evident against election.

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Great!  I will get some of them together for us to study, thanks.

First, let's be clear what we are discussing:

Unconditional Election is also known as "Calvinistic Predestination." The scripture teaches predestination, but not Calvinistic Predestination. Scripture predestination is where God pre-determined, not the identity of the saved, but the character of the saved. I am not opposed to predestination, for the scripture teaches it. However, Calvin's view of predestination means that the future is already determined and it doesn't matter what you do, it is completely decided by God. You have no free will.

You are in favor of unconditional election, correct?

What is foreknown by God in these verses? Personal identity? Or Character?


Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."


1 Corinthians 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"

Ephesians 1:3-4, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"


Remember, God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11-12; 1 Peter 1:17). Unconditional Election makes the Devil no enemy for the saved to worry about, so if predestined, why beware? (1 Peter 5:8).

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
Great!  I will get some of them together for us to study, thanks.

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I have to say, you are a pleasure to discuss this with.  While we may never agree on this I am glad to have you as a brother and am well pleased to know that you are a part of the kingdom. 

Originally posted by Gabriel
I have to say, you are a pleasure to discuss this with.  While we may never agree on this I am glad to have you as a brother and am well pleased to know that you are a part of the kingdom. 

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Thats good to know.  Discussion is nothing to fear!

The doctrine of Irresistible Grace states that God wills a person who is elect to believe, and that it is therefore impossible for that person not to believe.

This contradicts the Bible, for there are many examples of those who indeed resisted:

In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that the Scriptures bear witness of Him. But, He says, "You are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life."

In Matthew 23:37, Jesus laments over Jerusalem. He was certainly willing for them to be saved, but they were not.

In Acts 6:8-10, Stephen was "full of grace and power . . . and the Spirit," and yet those who heard his preaching resisted.

In Acts 7:51, before Stephen is put to death, he said, "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit."

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
First, let's be clear what we are discussing:

Unconditional Election is also known as "Calvinistic Predestination." The scripture teaches predestination, but not Calvinistic Predestination. Scripture predestination is where God pre-determined, not the identity of the saved, but the character of the saved. I am not opposed to predestination, for the scripture teaches it. However, Calvin's view of predestination means that the future is already determined and it doesn't matter what you do, it is completely decided by God. You have no free will.

You are in favor of unconditional election, correct?

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Yes and no.  Everything is predetermined by God, He is sovereign.  It does matter what we do as we see in Luke 22:22.  We are held responsible for our actions. 

No one has free will.  All your decisions are based on your preference, the circumstances, etc.

Once we are converted and we receive the heart of flesh, we are able to make righteous decisions where before our sinful nature allowed us only to make sinful decisions.

We cannot and do not change God's plan.  Nor does He react to our decisions or the decisions that He looked down in time and saw that we would make.

Have you ever had the intention of sinning yet you felt so convicted that you didnt?  Or have you ever sinned and then thought, why the heck did I do that?  You were playing your part in God's plan.  While He is not the author of sin, He does allow it at times for we know that "All things work together to the good for those who love God."

OK, I have to go. 

Ok, see this is where I am confused.

First you stated that:

We are held responsible for our actions.

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And then you stated that:

No one has free will.

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How can we be responsible for our own actions if they are not our actions? 

If we only obey either (a) our sinful natures, or (b) God's grace, then we are not deciding anything, so how can we be responsible without any responsibility?  Isn't it more reasonable to believe that we have some decision in the matter, although we are helped out by God's grace?

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
Ok, see this is where I am confused.

First you stated that:



And then you stated that:



How can we be responsible for our own actions if they are not our actions? 

If we only obey either (a) our sinful natures, or (b) God's grace, then we are not deciding anything, so how can we be responsible without any responsibility?  Isn't it more reasonable to believe that we have some decision in the matter, although we are helped out by God's grace?

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Read the whole post, I explianed it there.  Also see the scripture reference I gave.

Originally posted by Gabriel
Read the whole post, I explianed it there.  Also see the scripture reference I gave.

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I dont get it...

No one has free will.  All your decisions

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Then they arent your decisions, are they?

We cannot and do not change God's plan. Nor does He react to our decisions or the decisions that He looked down in time and saw that we would make.

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Then why did Jesus tell Mary that it wasn't his time, when she asked Him to turn the water into wine, but yet, He did it anyway. He allowed her to change His mind, or else He was lying when He said it wasn't His time, and we both know that isnt possible. 

In other words, if it was His plan all along to turn the water into wine, He wouldn't have said it wasn't His time, because He doesn't lie.  This is absolute proof that He changed His mind, based on a request from a righteous person.

Also, you apparently didn't read the scripture I provided about the prayer's of the righteous being powerful?

DotF777, as I said, great post and thank you for offering it in a spirit of Love.  The Truth sets us free, wouldn't you say?

God bless,

Don

Ref-

The truth does set us free. So, would you please refer to my previous post and offer your opinion of this proof of intercessionary requests changing God's mind?