lloj, why are you asking me this when I already pointed one out to you. praying to the saints.
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Is the Pope the most powerful voice for Christianity today?
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Oh, ok. I thought for a minute there I was going to be relegated to the "unorthodox" board.
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christianmomof3
pursuing Christ
I also submit to the authority of the Lord and to the authority of the church - just not to the Roman Catholic Religious organization.i saw there was no answer . . .
sorry - had to pick up children from school.
Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
The Lord is always with us. Jesus will return as well in an outward way but to His believers He has not left us.
Why? Paul tells us that we have rulers over us in the church . . why doesn't yours have these rulers? Why doesn't your church match what Paul tells us about the Church?
Where do the rules come from if you do not have rulers?
Then we must have rulers so the church I meet with must match what Paul says.
By submitting to his authority and that of the Church.
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Is the Holy Spirit Jesus?
Isn't that answer somewhat lame? I mean you say you "must" have them because you go to a church and Paul says the Church has rulers?
So, simply because Paul says the Church has rulers, you assume you have them?
You just told us you didn't. You just told us that you only have one Ruler, Chirst . . no other rulers.
So which is it?
Who are they?
How do you obey them if you don't know who they are?
What authority of the church? Where is that authority? Who are they? Who sits in positions of authority in your church to rule over you?
You said there were no such rulers .. now suddenly you have them?
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Christina, I did clarify,
You are simply raising a false dilema. It is not an either/or situation. It is a Both/And situation. It has abeen explained.
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JacktheCatholic
Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
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LLoJ is one of our 'fallen' Catholics.
I have been trying to make a revert of him.
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I blame it on the Vietnam war.LLoJ is one of our 'fallen' Catholics.
I have been trying to make a revert of him.
Btw, I did defend ya'all over here [hmm, maybe I didn't afterall]
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=46162211#post46162211
The Pope's Diabolical Message?
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sunlover1
Beloved, Let us love one another
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17. Obey them that have the rule over you.
Our author began this section with an exhortation for his readers to remember their former leaders (vs. 7).
Now he speaks in regard to the present leaders.
Obey (Gr peithesthe) is passive and more simply means be persuaded;
but it can also mean trust, believe, obey, or follow.
In fact, in the very next verse this word is translated trust:
for we trust we have a good conscience.
Our author began this section with an exhortation for his readers to remember their former leaders (vs. 7).
Now he speaks in regard to the present leaders.
Obey (Gr peithesthe) is passive and more simply means be persuaded;
but it can also mean trust, believe, obey, or follow.
In fact, in the very next verse this word is translated trust:
for we trust we have a good conscience.
Our author seems to suggest that we ought to believe, trust, or be persuaded by our leaders.
The next command is to submit (Gr hypeikete), or yield.
Kent sees the first verb as denoting an assent to anothers direction,
whereas the latter denotes a yeilding of ones contrary opinions in favor of anothers opinion (p. 288).
The next command is to submit (Gr hypeikete), or yield.
Kent sees the first verb as denoting an assent to anothers direction,
whereas the latter denotes a yeilding of ones contrary opinions in favor of anothers opinion (p. 288).
The leader must not imagine that this passage authorizes him to dictate.
God has given to the leaders the work of overseeing,
not by being an overlord but by being an example (I Pet 5:13).
We must follow our spiritual leaders and submit to them;
for they watch over our lives, knowing that they,
as well as we, will give an accounting of our lives.
We ought to make their ministry over us joyful rather than miserable.
God has given to the leaders the work of overseeing,
not by being an overlord but by being an example (I Pet 5:13).
We must follow our spiritual leaders and submit to them;
for they watch over our lives, knowing that they,
as well as we, will give an accounting of our lives.
We ought to make their ministry over us joyful rather than miserable.
KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994 (2582).
Thomas Nelson: Nashville
2. Having thus told us the duty Christians owe to their deceased ministers, which principally consists in following their faith and not departing from it, the apostle tells us what is the duty that people owe to their living ministers (v. 17) and the reasons of that duty:
(1.) The duty-to obey them, and submit themselves to them. It is not an implicit obedience, or absolute submission, that is here required, but only so far as is agreeable to the mind and will of God revealed in his word; and yet it is truly obedience and submission, and that not only to God, but to the authority of the ministerial office, which is of God as certainly, in all things belonging to that office, as the authority of parents or of civil magistrates in the things within their sphere. Christians must submit to be instructed by their ministers, and not think themselves too wise, too good, or too great, to learn from them; and, when they find that ministerial instructions are agreeable to the written word, they must obey them.
(2.) The motives to this duty.
[1.] They have the rule over the people; their office, though not magisterial, yet is truly authoritative. They have no authority to lord it over the people, but to lead them in the ways of God, by informing and instructing them, explaining the word of God to them, and applying it to their several cases. They are not to make laws of their own, but to interpret the laws of God; nor is their interpretation to be immediately received without examination, but the people must search the scriptures, and so far as the instructions of their minister are according to that rule they ought to receive them, not as the word of men, but, as they are indeed, the word of God, that works effectually in those that believe.
[2.] They watch for the souls of the people, not to ensnare them, but to save them; to gain them, not to themselves, but to Christ; to build them up in knowledge, faith, and holiness. They are to watch against every thing that may be hurtful to the souls of men, and to give them warning of dangerous errors, of the devices of Satan, of approaching judgments; they are to watch for all opportunities of helping the souls of men forward in the way to heaven.
[3.] They must give an account how they have discharged their duty, and what has become of the souls committed to their trust, whether any have been lost through their neglect, and whether any of them have been brought in and built up under their ministry.
[4.] They would be glad to give a good account of themselves and their hearers. If they can then give in an account of their own fidelity and success, it will be a joyful day to them; those souls that have been converted and confirmed under their ministry will be their joy, and their crown, in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[5.] If they give up their account with grief, it will be the peoples loss as well as theirs. It is the interest of hearers that the account their ministers give of them may be with joy, and not with grief. If faithful ministers be not successful, the grief will be theirs, but the loss will be the peoples. Faithful ministers have delivered their own souls, but a fruitless and faithless peoples blood and ruin will be upon their own heads.
(1.) The duty-to obey them, and submit themselves to them. It is not an implicit obedience, or absolute submission, that is here required, but only so far as is agreeable to the mind and will of God revealed in his word; and yet it is truly obedience and submission, and that not only to God, but to the authority of the ministerial office, which is of God as certainly, in all things belonging to that office, as the authority of parents or of civil magistrates in the things within their sphere. Christians must submit to be instructed by their ministers, and not think themselves too wise, too good, or too great, to learn from them; and, when they find that ministerial instructions are agreeable to the written word, they must obey them.
(2.) The motives to this duty.
[1.] They have the rule over the people; their office, though not magisterial, yet is truly authoritative. They have no authority to lord it over the people, but to lead them in the ways of God, by informing and instructing them, explaining the word of God to them, and applying it to their several cases. They are not to make laws of their own, but to interpret the laws of God; nor is their interpretation to be immediately received without examination, but the people must search the scriptures, and so far as the instructions of their minister are according to that rule they ought to receive them, not as the word of men, but, as they are indeed, the word of God, that works effectually in those that believe.
[2.] They watch for the souls of the people, not to ensnare them, but to save them; to gain them, not to themselves, but to Christ; to build them up in knowledge, faith, and holiness. They are to watch against every thing that may be hurtful to the souls of men, and to give them warning of dangerous errors, of the devices of Satan, of approaching judgments; they are to watch for all opportunities of helping the souls of men forward in the way to heaven.
[3.] They must give an account how they have discharged their duty, and what has become of the souls committed to their trust, whether any have been lost through their neglect, and whether any of them have been brought in and built up under their ministry.
[4.] They would be glad to give a good account of themselves and their hearers. If they can then give in an account of their own fidelity and success, it will be a joyful day to them; those souls that have been converted and confirmed under their ministry will be their joy, and their crown, in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[5.] If they give up their account with grief, it will be the peoples loss as well as theirs. It is the interest of hearers that the account their ministers give of them may be with joy, and not with grief. If faithful ministers be not successful, the grief will be theirs, but the loss will be the peoples. Faithful ministers have delivered their own souls, but a fruitless and faithless peoples blood and ruin will be upon their own heads.
Henry, M. 1996, c1991.
Matthew Henry's commentary on the whole Bible :
Complete and unabridged in one volume (Heb 13:1).
Hendrickson: Peabody
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LLoJ is one of our 'fallen' Catholics.
I have been trying to make a revert of him.
LLoJ will never return to the dark side
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Theophorus
...
At least the strongest voice in Christianity has integrity. The sex abuse scandal being addressed by Pope Benedict has been all over the news. At least he is not white washing it, and he is bringing it up. And if it is not systemic, why are there now proposals to change canon law to make bishops more accountable?
Benedict doesn't have his head in the sand.
"All I can say is, thanks be to God," said Baltimore Archbishop Edwin F. O'Brien, who joined Pope Benedict at the altar yesterday for the Mass at Yankee Stadium in New York. "It's something that he could have avoided or made excuses about, but it's the mark of the man that he saw how serious this has been for us."
But beyond those numbers, involving as they do only a small percentage of the nation's 67 million Catholics, the scandal has shaken the faith of many in their church's hierarchy. Some analysts have linked it to the rate at which Catholics are leaving the church in the United States, which is greater than in any other major American faith.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.pope21apr21001516,0,2527099.story
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LLoJ will never return to the dark side
LLOJ [coverted from Darth Vader thru the power of the Force and the Scriptures!!!!]
Reve 12:7 And became battle in the heaven, the Michael [Yoda/Luther] and the messengers [Jedi Knights/Reformers] of him do battle with the dragon, and the dragon battles [Emperor/Pope] and the messengers [Empire/RCC] of him 8 and not he is strong neither place was found of them still in the heaven. [Matt 12:29]
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Theophorus
...
Is this addressed to me, because it appears before my post concerning it.
http://christianforums.com/t7149859&page=60
Must be an admin thing...
Assuming it is; No, your attitude does not disgust me. I think the US clergy were naive to try and adopt this position. It's kind of like me beating the hell out of someone and then insisting they forgive me.
I think that the clergy should be the ones tyring to make amends 1st, then let Christian virtue flow from that. I think the Pope sees it my way.
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Thank you Theophorus.
Amd even though this issue has had its affect on the American Church, and its impact has been very, very real, this is a small portion of the Catholic Church overall. 67 milion out of over a billion is a relatively small percentage. Things just need to be kept in perspective. And I am sure that in time, this will resolve and you will see a influx back into the Church here in America.
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Ok, I am not going to hunt them down, so bring them on.
I know this is about the catechism.
Which apparently is being misunderstood, much like most of scriptures...but hey.
It is usually best to go to the source, the Church if you have questions.
Perhaps call a priest.
BUT I am here right now, and i would like to see the emergency of understanding this.
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He didn't show any integrity. He tried to hold every rc accountable for the actions of the priests and the failure of the church leadership to handle the situations rightly.
Plus, there the whole praying with the muslims and visiting mosques thing.
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