Where Is America In The Last Days ?

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 18, 2002

Originally posted by 46mech
rollinThunder,

Well, I guess I'll be the one who voices his concern about this "prophesy," and I'm sure I'll get more than enough flaming from this post.
I'm not a scholar of the scriptures and I don't pretend to have too much of a grasp on end times prophesies, so I'm only speaking from my gut on this.
You told us that God told you these things, and while you didn't give a specific date, you did give a specific timeline. Hence, you might be misleading Christians into expecting the rapture within ten years. This would be opposite of what the scriptures tell us about not knowing the day or the hour, does it not?
I don't know if you meant to present yourself as a prophet, but based on the content of your first two postings, that was my impression.......that you were relaying a prophesy and not just a theory.
I'm just a man who really loves the Lord and am concerned whenever I hear/read something that seems to contradict what I have come to understand from the scriptures. So if I have misunderstood your post please forgive me.

Hello 46mech,
Your right, the bible does say that no one other than the Father would know the day or the hour, but, Jesus also commanded us to watch and wait expectantly. He also gave us signs to watch for.
Matt. 24:32 - Now learn this lesson from the fig tree : As soon as it's twigs get tender and it's leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 - Even so when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

And again, Luke 21:36 - "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.

I would consider myself to be more of a WATCHMAN - ready to blow his trumpet, as to warn all who will listen. I also believe it to be sinful for one to claim to know the day or hour. Fore such a one, it would appear that he is trying to prove the bible wrong. I don't claim to be a prophet, just a foot soldier in the Lords Army. He may call me to dig a ditch next, who knows?? I just try to make myself available when He calls.

billhabing · Feb 18, 2002

May I add a word the lord has given me?

billhabing · Feb 18, 2002

The people of the United States are wrong to kill people, because your leaders claim to be Christian and do not act like Christ you will now reap what you have sown. The people who know the Lord Jesus Christ must come out of their comfort and realize that the attitudes of revenge and hate must stop. A Christian person who is like Christ will not condone any of the killing now going on in the world, all reasoning to justify such acts is not from the spirit of God. The mandate of the lord is to do good to and love your enemies, putting their needs ahead of your own. Jesus told you that you will know the people of God by their fruit, so do not be fooled by your country, there is no good fruit to be found in your leaders. Blessed are the Merciful for they will receive mercy. True Christians must now decide to live their lives in the kingdom of God The united states with it's mercy-less attitude toward John Walker, the Taliban, and terrorists in general will now realize there is no mercy for them. Stop supporting the United States in word or deed concerning their un-merciful, self-righteous attitude toward evil men, men who you think are evil, you however have not considered God's side of this whole event. Christian people will always obey the government because authority is established by God. But you must stop agreeing with the supposed justice the U.S. is handing out. Your whole position is not of God. Stop calling yourself a Christian unless you are in Christ. Jesus will not declare war on any one. Your leaders do not act like Christ therefore they are not Christian. You will know this message is true when you see your economy fail. There will be no recovery for you, prepare to loose your possessions, you will no longer live in pleasure and luxury

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 19, 2002

Originally posted by stratman44

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

We also have definite scripture that tells us these things will both happen "after" the tribulation.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation , the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Your brother in Christ,
Steven [/B]

Hello stratman44,
I find it odd that you started off in Mathew, but then went to mark, when Mathew talked about the same subject. I wonder if you were aware of the difference?? Lets compare the two here.

I'll use KJV in both:
Matt. 24:31 - "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:27 - "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

I never knew of these differences until now. They are clearly talking about the same thing. But, that does not mean that one has to be wrong. In Mathews account - at the sound of the trumpet, the elect are gathered from the four winds of heaven, so this would blow your theory of this event being the rapture. But in Marks account - at the sound of the trumpet, the elect are gathered from the four winds also, but the winds are from the earth to the heavens.
There is no possible way this could be the rapture. It must be the second coming. I believe this will be our call to join Jesus in His return, but not just us, but the angels as well. I think that Mathew left out part because he knew it would cause some confusion. Both are gathering from the winds in heaven, so it can't be the rapture, because the rapture takes the living and dead in Christ up to the clouds, from the earth.

Here is one more problem with the post-trib theory. If the rapture does not occur until the end of the tribulation, then there would be no one left to re-populate the earth in the millenium. There would only be goats left, and no sheep.

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 19, 2002

After a closer look, I should point out, that I made a mistake as well. Mathew left out a part, but then again, so did Mark. Mark forgot to mention the trumpet, or then again, maybe he left it out for a reason. Maybe to prevent confusion. But there is one thing that is certain, These two brothers were definately talking about the very same event.

Debbie · Feb 19, 2002

BIllhabing, I see that you are an American while heaping accusations & hopes of destruction upon your countrymen.
As a fellow American, I cannot condone all that our gov't has done in the past. BUt I can also tell you that NOT responding militarily to 9/11 would be too stupid.
I can also tell you are young, & find it difficult to understand how we can condone killing in war.
The first thing you have to realize it that the Bible is your final authority. You don't have to understand it completely, but it must be your final authority. proverbs 29:26 says"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool". We cannot make up our own minds of right & wrong. Our beliefs have to have Biblical foundation.
Where in the Bible does it say "war is a sin"?
War is inevitable. Was it a sin for David to kill Goliath? no.
If you cannot see that destroying the taliban is self defense then pray for enlightening.
Contrary to your belief "Jesus does not declare war on anyone", the Bible says differently. Immerse yourself in it. You never heard of Sosdom & Gamorrah, NOah's flood, or Armageddon? OUr president IS a Christian But I will still keep watching him anyway.
I have seen his fruit. I know this concerns you & I pray you talk to other mature Christians about this also.

rwc109 · Feb 19, 2002

Beloved people,
there are just a few matters to come about first BEFORE the return of Christ and the firstfruits redemption...a rather nasty period of tribulation under the auspices of the antichrist, that man of sin and son of death:-
[but the world economy may wel collapse first anyway because of Islamic control over the last oil reserves and profligate usage and dependency in USA especially, but also the whole West]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Another consideation is that Israel must be chastised [yet again,,,sigh] by God for taking the Holy Land by force of Arms and not by Himself, and of course for rejecting their messiah..... don't forget that it is 144,000 of the tribes of Israel who get swept up first, the multitudes come later [Revelation 7:4-10

Debbie · Feb 19, 2002

Billhabing, To gain more insight into our current war with the all MUslim group who did9/11. I suggest you read Gal. 4:22-29.
Islam was founded by Ishmael, the son of the bondwoman Hagar, and Abraham.
BAck then it was the first born son who inherited his father's wealth. BUt ABraham later had a son, Issac, as God had promised him ,before he mistakenly was instructed by his wife to fullfill God's promise of a son by sleeping with her handmaiden.
Abraham didn't wait for "God's time", he forced the promise to happen in his time. God told Abraham to send the bondwoman & her son out, & that he gives all Abraham's inheritance to Abraham's 2nd son, Issac. This means Israel.
I saw a Palestinian leader setting next to Osama Bin Laden in front of a cave on CNN. Bin LAden said ,"We are tired of America backing Israel, WE WANT OUR INHERITANCE."
Verse 29 is referrring to Christians(Issac's brethren), as those "born after the Spirit" and Ishmael's descendants(Muslims), as "he that was born after the flesh".
Gal 4:23-29 says that "even now" the Muslims "persecute" the Christians & Jews. LIterally. ( can read it in the figurative sense also which I understand.)
Fundamental Muslims believe they have a right to Ishmael's supposed inheritance,which is Israel to them. I heard them say it with my own ears. "We want our inheritance".

tom · Feb 19, 2002

i see america i these last days as getting moore diffucult times as well as challenges ahead for us as christians we need to unite.

Originally posted by Josiah

I re-read those verses and, really, my take seems shaky after reading the following:

Look at Chapter 5 Verse 8

"8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

If the 24 elders are the church, who's prayers are they holding in the bowls???

Can anyone help with this?

texmessege

Debbie · Feb 19, 2002

The prayers of the saints, the prayers of the righteous. Those righteous folks who have prayed to God. Their prayers are powerful. (don't know the verse).

billhabing · Feb 20, 2002

Debbie
This post is no an arguement, I just want to clear a few things up. First of all I am 50 years old. And I love Jesus more than this country or anything esle for that matter. My web site is for the sake of the youth, who I believe will lead this present church system back to Jesus. What ever you think of my biblical knowledge I can understand. We are supposed to be christ-like following his steps in this world. Matt ch 5-7 Luke 6, 14 Are key passages to what Xians should look like. I know that some people don't believe the bible, just ask the spirit of God in you if killing for killing is of God who's latest revelation is Jesus. Be encouraged if you are young the future is exciting. You will not however be able to live in luxury and pleasure at the rest of the worlds expense.
In His love Bill Habing

rwc109 · Feb 20, 2002

Dear Tom,
Here is a possibility [no more] for the identity of the elders, one man in every seventh generation from Adam walked with God, became friend of God, did not see death, but was translated [as Enoch, Noah,....] just an idea.

NoahsRaven · Feb 22, 2002

Interesting theory...

Of course, the entire "gist" of this idea is based on a "pre" tribulation rapture. Those of us who do not believe in a "pre" tribulation rapture may have a different take on this. As far as I have read in all of the versions of the scriptures I study, I find no basis for belief of a the rapture taking place before the great tribulation.

As far as the "war on terrorism"...well, lets just say the "fox wants to protect the chickens".

What is happening around us right now is a very orchestrated set of events that will lead us into one of the darkest moments of world history. Watch...read...pray.

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 22, 2002

Hello NoahsRaven,
And welcome to the forum. Yeah - it's pre-trib alright. So this means that you are probably either a mid or post tribber?? Well, you will feel at home here, we cover all the bases. After a while, you will discover some of the battles we have had over which belief is correct. But, no matter who is right, we try to remember that we are all family here. Hope to see ya around! !

Willis Deal · Feb 23, 2002

Bill,

I think we need to distinguish God's plan and purpose for individuals from his plan and purpose for government. The words you quote are from God's purpose for individuals. We are to love our enemies, forgive those who wrong us, submit to authority. However God's plan for government is different. The institution of government is to protect the citizens, to punish the unrighteous. What advice was given to soldiers... Don't gripe about your pay and living conditions... nothing said about not killing, or going out to war, or need to disobey orders with which you disagree. A soldier is acting on behalf of the government and therefore is required to fulfill his official function.

Jesus will go to war, read toward the end of Revelation and you'll see Jesus acting in his authority as King of kings and personally destroying multitudes in a war unlike any other.

Willis Deal · Feb 23, 2002

NoahsRaven,

If you are a mid or post tribulation rapture believer please read the thread 'post tribulation rapture confirmed'. I'm pre-trib myself but my brothers who don't see scripture the same as I do seem to have abandoned me and I would hate to be declared winner of the debate without someone at least taking a stab at refuting the verses I've offered which seem to remove any chance of a post trib rapture.

billhabing · Feb 24, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal
Bill,

I think we need to distinguish God's plan and purpose for individuals from his plan and purpose for government. The words you quote are from God's purpose for individuals. We are to love our enemies, forgive those who wrong us, submit to authority. However God's plan for government is different. The institution of government is to protect the citizens, to punish the unrighteous. What advice was given to soldiers... Don't gripe about your pay and living conditions... nothing said about not killing, or going out to war, or need to disobey orders with which you disagree. A soldier is acting on behalf of the government and therefore is required to fulfill his official function.

Jesus will go to war, read toward the end of Revelation and you'll see Jesus acting in his authority as King of kings and personally destroying multitudes in a war unlike any other.

First of all People who are in this government doing these things shouldf not be personal Christians because then they are hypocrites,believing one thing doing another. I don't care what the government does just don't kill in Jesus name. My words are directed to individuals the ones killing.

As far as revelation after college courses and study of the many ways the book can be inturpreted I will admit most of the book I don't understand. Rev 18 has been part of my life since I was an evangelist about 20 years ago. If jesus is going to kill I will wait and let Him show me how.

My whole point is most of the young people see right through the double standards of the xian church, punk rock bands, POD, and several secular movies are hounding us to see how phoney we are I am tired of saying yes to a bunch of foolishness. Where are the people who will lay down their life for their brother. who will drop their own agenda and help someelse.

The present Church system is going to close and a youth lead honest system is opening to lead us back to JESUS. If we get out of churchh and quit believing all the biblical theories that have been handed us we will find Jesus.

I am very aware of the Christian culture. Most of us who post can be recognized by the party line we preach. Pentecostal, conservative, etc. I am only asking if we believe the bible the least we could do is what Jesus said to do. Your frustrated friend on mission with Jesus for his church, follow the youth.
BIll Habing

Me4him · Feb 26, 2002

When Jesus brought the gospel to the Gentiles he also brought all the promises of God, that included a "land flowing with milk and honey", a "promise land".

That "promise land" is the USA.

For a God who is so intimately involved in the affairs of man that he even numbers the hairs of our head, it isn't a coincidence the Jerusalem is spelled, jer...USA...lem.

As Israel was blinded and isn't mentioned as having a part in the ministry of the Gospel, until the "fulness of the Gentiles", (rapture), neither is the USA mentioned as having part in the Tribulations.

He 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

God stopped speaking to Israel when Jesus starting speaking to the Gentiles, and God doesn't start speaking again until Jesus stops. (Rapture).

Once the "saved" are rapture, the USA will no longer be a "promise land", but just another land of "unbelievers".

As Sodom and Gomorrah could have been "justified" by "ten righteous", America is also justified by the "righteousness" of it's "believers", a righteousness that will disappear in the "twinkling of an eye".

Where's America in Tribulation prophecy, why America is at the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb".

billhabing · Feb 27, 2002

Let me see now it would be stupid for me to think the promised land would look like Jesus who is the Lord.

strathyboy · Feb 27, 2002

"That "promise land" is the USA. "

You don't seriously believe that do you? I'm not saying the US is that bad a place, but it's cetainly not the "promised land".

Where Is America In The Last Days ?

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