Heb 4:12 Does not Prove Soul & Spirit are Separated

nephilimiyr · Apr 10, 2008

DevotiontoBible said:
The Hebrew scriptures use soul and spirit interchangeably and treat man as a holistic being and not as a spirit that has a soul and lives in a body.

Then why are you useing an epistle written in Greek to point out what the Hebrew scriptures say?

DevotiontoBible · Apr 10, 2008

ARBITER01 said:
You may want to take a look at that again because they don't. The Hebrew scriptures use separate words, and they are not interchangeable, they mean completely different things. I'm not trying to beat you up in these things, I'm just asking that you spend some time on this.

Here is an example of soul and spirit used as synonyms in the Hebrew poetry:

Job 27:3
3 For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
NASU

DevotiontoBible · Apr 10, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
Then why are you useing an epistle written in Greek to point out what the Hebrew scriptures say?

Because I didnt' get that far to post Hebrew scriptures yet when that was posted. But notice Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Not a living spirit.

probinson · Apr 10, 2008

Since we're apparently playing Bible translation roulette to prove a point;

Genesis 2:7 (AMP)
Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

nephilimiyr · Apr 10, 2008

CaDan said:
It is an interesting bit of theological speculation, but the continuous jabs at your brethren are unseemly. Please knock it off.

s/ CaDan
Administrator

Thank you CaDan

DevotiontoBible · Apr 10, 2008

probinson said:
Since we're apparently playing Bible translation roulette to prove a point;

Genesis 2:7 (AMP)
Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

That is the point I am making and the AMP shows it clearly. The meaning in our language is not to be taken as a cut and dry spirit/soul/body separation when these words are used.

ARBITER01 · Apr 10, 2008

DevotiontoBible said:
Here is an example of soul and spirit used as synonyms in the Hebrew poetry:

Job 27:3
3 For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
NASU

Check the words in the hebrew used here. Life should really be translated breath, it is not the same word used for soul, which would be nephesh. The word used here is nashamah, a completely different word with a completely different definition.

This would be a better translation of that passage,.

3 (LIT) As long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils,

I can see what you are getting at, and do agree that our soul and spirit can be innertwined in ways, but I can't agree that passages like this can be used to make Hebrews be understood differently somehow.

LeadWorship · Apr 11, 2008

DevotiontoBible said:
The fact of the matter is that logos and rhema are used interchangeably.

First it was thoughts and intentions.
Then it was psuche and pneuma.
Now it is logos and rhema?

Is this the infamous birdshot attack? Fire away with anything and everything that seems to not make perfect literary sense.

1 Cor 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You have every right to disagree. However please stop trying to refute and tear down those "faith" people's beliefs. It is very unbecomming of a christian to do so. All these attacks and I still can't believe you sit under a WoF minister. How gut-wrenching it must be for you week after week! How do you do it?

DevotiontoBible · Apr 11, 2008

ARBITER01 said:
Check the words in the hebrew used here. Life should really be translated breath, it is not the same word used for soul, which would be nephesh. The word used here is nashamah, a completely different word with a completely different definition.

This would be a better translation of that passage,.

I can see what you are getting at, and do agree that our soul and spirit can be innertwined in ways, but I can't agree that passages like this can be used to make Hebrews be understood differently somehow.

Nephesh is the most common word used but not the only word used for the soul. That poetic form Job used is similar to this one in the New Testament where soul and spirit are used as synonyms: Luke 1:46-47 (KJV)
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Here the same Hebrew word in my previous post is translated as spirit: Job 26:4 (KJV)
To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Proverbs 20:27 (KJV)
The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

But here the same word is used for souls: Isaiah 57:16 (KJV)
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

DevotiontoBible · Apr 11, 2008

LeadWorship said:
First it was thoughts and intentions.
Then it was psuche and pneuma.
Now it is logos and rhema?

Is this the infamous birdshot attack? Fire away with anything and everything that seems to not make perfect literary sense.

1 Cor 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You have every right to disagree. However please stop trying to refute and tear down those "faith" people's beliefs. It is very unbecomming of a christian to do so. All these attacks and I still can't believe you sit under a WoF minister. How gut-wrenching it must be for you week after week! How do you do it?

The foundation the "faith" teachings have is a distorted trichotomy. Remove that foundation and the house falls. The Bible does not teach that man is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. The Bible frequently says man has a spirit, the spirit is something possessed by the man:1 Cor. 14:14 (KJV)
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Romans 1:9 (KJV)
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

irenemcg · Apr 11, 2008

Balance said:
***************Notice - this is a JOKE - you know - HUMOR*************************

I called Rhema, - your post has struck at their hearts and I just wanted to let you know -

Because this has made their theology fall apart - they have closed their ministries. Including their Bible Schools in the US and the other 15 nations across the Globe.

****************THIS HAS BEEN A WOF JOKE AND IT IS MEANT TO MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH *********************

We now return to your regularly scheduled Word of Faith is wrong because............................ thread

LOL!

irenemcg · Apr 11, 2008

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

DevotiontoBible · Apr 11, 2008

irenemcg said:
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That doesn't say those elements are separated as in the "faith" teaching that says man is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. There is no clear distinction that disqualifies the rest of the Bible view as man as a tri-unity, holistic being.

irenemcg · Apr 11, 2008

There are other texts, that distinguish between each.

Body and Soul:
Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Soul and Spirit:
1 Sam. 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Spirit and Body:
Daniel 7:5 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
1Cor. 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

BTW, trichotomy is not an exclusive WOF teaching, many Baptists , Pentecostals and other Evangelicals teach this.

DevotiontoBible · Apr 11, 2008

irenemcg said:
There are other texts, that distinguish between each.

Body and Soul:
Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Soul and Spirit:
1 Sam. 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Spirit and Body:
Daniel 7:5 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
1Cor. 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

BTW, trichotomy is not an exclusive WOF teaching, many Baptists , Pentecostals and other Evangelicals teach this.

You need to address some Old Testament and New Testament verses I already provided that show the same words used for soul and spirit interchangeably. However, notice your quote of Dan 3:5 and Job that describes the mans spirit as possessed by the man "my spirit" and none describe man as a spirit?

I know trichotomy is accepted by many but it is a theory. More and more evangelical scholars are drifting to a dichotomy that is holistic.

ARBITER01 · Apr 11, 2008

DevotiontoBible said:
Nephesh is the most common word used but not the only word used for the soul. That poetic form Job used is similar to this one in the New Testament where soul and spirit are used as synonyms: Luke 1:46-47 (KJV)
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Here the same Hebrew word in my previous post is translated as spirit: Job 26:4 (KJV)
To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Proverbs 20:27 (KJV)
The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

But here the same word is used for souls: Isaiah 57:16 (KJV)
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

I'm sorry Devo, just because the kjv translates that word soul a couple times, doesn't establish it to mean that from that point on.

The word nashama can mean breath or spirit, so we do see the interchange of those words on it, but the use of soul on that word is unjustified, in fact, look at that Isaiah section,..

16 (LIT) For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry, for the spirit would faint before Me, even the breaths I have made.

Even the Septuagint translates it this way,...

16 (LXXE) I will not take vengeance on you for ever, neither will I be always angry with you: for my Spirit shall go forth from me, and I have created all breath.

I think you have a hard case before you if the jewish writers of the greek translation translates nashama as breath instead of soul.

DevotiontoBible · Apr 11, 2008

ARBITER01 said:
I'm sorry Devo, just because the kjv translates that word soul a couple times, doesn't establish it to mean that from that point on.

The word nashama can mean breath or spirit, so we do see the interchange of those words on it, but the use of soul on that word is unjustified, in fact, look at that Isaiah section,..

Even the Septuagint translates it this way,...

I think you have a hard case before you if the jewish writers of the greek translation translates nashama as breath instead of soul.

That LXX English translation you gave is a literal one. That would be like translating Gen 1:2 as "...the wind ..." instead of "the Spirit" like some liberal translations. Here is a modern translation since you don't like the KJV on that:
Isaiah 57:16 (NLT)
For I will not fight against you forever; I will not always show my anger. If I did, all people would pass away—all the souls I have made.

JEBrady · Apr 11, 2008

DevotiontoBible said:
That doesn't say those elements are separated as in the "faith" teaching that says man is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. There is no clear distinction that disqualifies the rest of the Bible view as man as a tri-unity, holistic being.

I agree this scripture doesn't state that man is a spirit who has a soul...etc. What the passage does do is make a clear distinction between spirit and soul. It doesn't describe the distinction. They are distinct in scripture, although the distinction may not be articulated or understood or agreed upon by everyone. When you say there is no distinction, then you are not agreeing with scripture.

In practice, I have experienced the difference under the power of God's anointing. That's not something that I can articulate to you experientially. Maybe you just haven't experienced it yourself. The first time this happened was when I was born again.

Actually, this passage of scripture assumes the hearer/reader has at least rudimentary understanding of the nature of man, and doesn't need to explain it. But we can be really ignorant. That's why Jesus said to Nicodemus, "are you the teacher of Israel and you don't understand these things?"

DevotiontoBible · Apr 11, 2008

JEBrady said:
I agree this scripture doesn't state that man is a spirit who has a soul...etc. What the passage does do is make a clear distinction between spirit and soul. It doesn't describe the distinction. They are distinct in scripture, although the distinction may not be articulated or understood or agreed upon by everyone. When you say there is no distinction, then you are not agreeing with scripture.

In practice, I have experienced the difference under the power of God's anointing. That's not something that I can articulate to you experientially. Maybe you just haven't experienced it yourself. The first time this happened was when I was born again.

Actually, this passage of scripture assumes the hearer/reader has at least rudimentary understanding of the nature of man, and doesn't need to explain it. But we can be really ignorant. That's why Jesus said to Nicodemus, "are you the teacher of Israel and you don't understand these things?"

It doesn't help your position, and others who have done the same, to attack me by labeling me as someone who is not born again therefore I can't understand what you do because of your superior spiritual experiences. I am born again, Jesus is my Lord and Savior, But I have not check my brains at the door when I entered God's Kingdom. When I said that verse does not show a clear distinction between the three elements I continued my sentence by saying "the rest of the Bible view as man as a tri-unity, holistic being". You can't throw away the rest of the Bible just because it disagrees with the mutilation you want to do to 1 Th 5:23.

ARBITER01 · Apr 11, 2008

DevotiontoBible said:
That LXX English translation you gave is a literal one. That would be like translating Gen 1:2 as "...the wind ..." instead of "the Spirit" like some liberal translations. Here is a modern translation since you don't like the KJV on that:
Isaiah 57:16 (NLT)
For I will not fight against you forever; I will not always show my anger. If I did, all people would pass awayall the souls I have made.

The reason why I presented a literal one was because they normally don't take liberties on what each word means.

And besides, with the greek Septuagint translating it breath, I just find it exceptionally hard for you to make a case on that aspect in front of people.

There are many times where you find the pearl of wisdom in GOD's scriptures Devo, but I must say this is not one of them here. Maybe back up and regroup on this marine.

Heb 4:12 Does not Prove Soul & Spirit are Separated

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