Under Authority, or Not...

Mike K · Feb 18, 2002

I've noticed a lot of people claiming to have revelation from God about this or that, yet they don't attend church.

How serious can we take someone who claims to have authority without being under authority?

Hervey · Feb 18, 2002

Did the Apostle Paul go to Church ? Or was he under any authority whatsoever on this earth ? Maybe these questions should be asked first !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Mike K · Feb 18, 2002

Paul was most certainly under authority. The original apostles and disciples held each other accountable and even argued from time to time. Yet, they were in agreement on doctrinal issues.

There are several verses about assembling together. And every one of the epistles were written to a "Church".

I've heard the argument that "church" is the body of believers, not a building and I agree. However, how can we be accountable to each other as believers if we do not "assemble" ourselves regularly?

JohnR7 · Feb 18, 2002

Did the Apostle Paul go to Church ? Or was he under any authority whatsoever on this earth ?

Of course Paul went to church, he was the one that wrote that we should forsake not the gathering together of the brothern. Also, Paul was under the authority of the other disciples, esp. Peter, James and John. The church would not accept him, tell he was accepted by the disciples of Jesus.

Of course back then, there was only one church. Things are different now. Someone may not be going to church because of a issue in the church and they have not found another fellowship yet. It is not always easy to go from one church to another. Or perhaps they are dealing with some sin in their life, that they are trying to overcome. Then there are others who are just luke warm, and do not want to have to deal with the conviction.

As for me, I have trouble understanding why someone would not want to go to church. It would not be unusual for me to attend church up to 5 times a week, and it would be rare if I did not go to church at least two or three times in a week. In the Bible there are people who went to the temple every day.

Hervey · Feb 18, 2002

Mike and John:

Of course he wanted and encouraged people to "assemble". But someone else was not leading the congregation !

As far as the other desciples and Apostles, Paul was not under their authority either ! They were to not asurp authority over each other , unless they specifically received revelation from God to do so. As Paul did with Peter in Galatians 2:11 - 18

Yes, Paul was subject unto Christ, but only Christ, because he was an Apostle. So was Peter, but Peter was outside his boundries, when he asked the Gentiles to live as the Jews do.

Throughout the Word of God, we see those whom God had called out , were only reproved one of two ways. Either by God himself, or an equal. An equal , was a prophet to a prophet. Such as the Prophet Nathan, to the Prophet David (King).

I Corinth. 2:15 says - "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man"

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Mike K · Feb 18, 2002

Hervey,

I should have probably changed that word "authority" to "accountability". Yes, we all recieve our "authority" from God through Christ. What I was getting at is there are several people claiming to bring forth Godly revelations but don't attend church and have no visible accountability for their words or actions.

My point was that Paul, Peter, etc. were all "accountable" to each other for their actions and words.

A lot of heresy comes from no accountability.

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

The elders are the overseers of the Church and therefore have a higher authority or responsibility. That doesn't make them "better" (although they are held to a higher standard) just "responsible". If someone is claiming to speak for God, yet they are not accountable to anyone other than themselves, is this responsible? And should they be trusted?

I know there are well meaning Christians, some of which have really good insight, but there are also some real goofs too. One of the ways I determine who I'll listen to is if the person can show that they have submitted themselves to others and have been tested. Too many of these people lead others in error and their folks suffer.

There are even those on this forum who claim no church affiliation yet proclaim the word of God boldly and sometimes make some wild, outlandish statements. My question to them is, who are you accountable to? They'll most likely respond with "God of course", but come on....

I hope you know what I'm at least "trying" to say here. I don't always come accross very clear.

SenseiPiccolo · Feb 18, 2002

Originally posted by JohnR7

Of course Paul went to church, he was the one that wrote that we should forsake not the gathering together of the brothern. Also, Paul was under the authority of the other disciples, esp. Peter, James and John. The church would not accept him, tell he was accepted by the disciples of Jesus.

Of course back then, there was only one church. Things are different now. Someone may not be going to church because of a issue in the church and they have not found another fellowship yet. It is not always easy to go from one church to another. Or perhaps they are dealing with some sin in their life, that they are trying to overcome. Then there are others who are just luke warm, and do not want to have to deal with the conviction.

As for me, I have trouble understanding why someone would not want to go to church. It would not be unusual for me to attend church up to 5 times a week, and it would be rare if I did not go to church at least two or three times in a week. In the Bible there are people who went to the temple every day.

amen!!!

Hervey · Feb 18, 2002

Hi Mike:

I feel that I understand what you are saying. And I don't really have any problem with what your saying.

I was merely pointing out, that Apostles and Prophets are responsible to Christ, but can only be corrected by equals. This is one of the consistencies within the Word of God.

I believe that you are saying from a position of a memeber of the body of Christ . That there are those who claim certain insight into the Word, without you seeing them at a church. Or another way of putting it, would be that they do not claim to have anyone with which they are accountable.

I understand this, and to a degree , fully agree with you. But just remember certain events within the Word. Like God calling out Peter to bring unto the first household Gentiles , the baptism of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10. We could say, who was Peter accountable for doing such a thing. Since never before, was there ever a Gentile who was counted worthy.

Do you see where I am coming from ?

God Bless

Love IN Christ - Hervey

LouisBooth · Feb 19, 2002

*sigh* it all depends on 2 things 1. what you define as church and 2 your reasons for not going.

If you don't want to get up..you're wrong. Churches don't have to meet on just sunday mornings. Its gathering together for the express purpose of glorifying God, edification of the body, and fellowship..I know I left out two of em..but I"m tired.

JohnR7 · Feb 19, 2002

Authority is just one of those things that we need to Holy Spirit of God to help us discern what is and what is not of God. Jesus warned about religious leaders who liked to Lord it over people. But there has to be order in the church. The Church I attend can be very strict at times, but only in as much as what it needs to be, to get the work done that God has for us to do. People need to work together in one mind and in one accord to get the job done. If everyone was going off in their own direction, then we would not be able to get anything done. Thanks, JohnR7

Hervey · Feb 20, 2002

John:

Has anyone given any thought, to the fact that there are many differing denominations , all claiming to have the correct answers about Christianity ? ? And that there are many ministries claiming the same thing ! ?

The Church is not in unity at this time.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

supermagdalena · Feb 20, 2002

Hervey,
I understand what you're saying completely. I go to a school where there is an unusual ammount of division between Catholics and nondenominationals. I currently attend a nondenominational church, but some other people and I try to be friends with everyone! It's hard because some people are rejecting, but others have accepted me as a sister in Christ and I am growing with them! Yet, the division may be breached by a few, but it's still there. We don't even really have a Christian group where anyone that is not Catholic really feels welcome. I stopped going because of the division there, and so did many others. Why does it have to be such a hostile environment? I don't understand why we can't just all say we are CHRISTIANS, period, because we've accepted CHRIST, instead of getting caught up in petty differences? This is the reason why many people don't go to church, like several friends of mine.

Hervey · Feb 20, 2002

Hi Super etc

I believe it depends on how certain groups were taught, as to how they will accept each other.

Some of the main issues, involve , how to forgive sins, the differences in baptism. How a communion service is to be held. And some groups even believe that we are not suppose to do a communion service, while others declare it to be a necessity.

Some also declare , that certain groups are not believing in the correct Jesus, while others only want God to be glorified by faith, and worship among the brethren.

Also lets remember, that there is an adversary who is going out of his way to deceive many, and many will be deceived.

Lets not also forget , that some groups have a passion on how we are to serve God and worship him.

Even though I am not using any biblical scripture to back up my beliefs here. I am stating that the weeds are among the good seed,and that there is going to be a time of harvest , that will root out the weeds from the good seed.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

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