Jesus is fully God & fully man

fieldsofwind · Nov 12, 2002

drmmjr... and everything you said about "logos" was the same as what ed said. What I responded with is the Bible and the Bible alone. I don't "make" it say what I "think" it says. Everything you state is completely up to your own opinion... therefore the Word was God, directly applies to the "He" spoken of who became flesh... "He was God" = Christ. He became flesh = Christ. Read Hebrews... "Today I have become your Father". It is plain to see... if one simply reads what God provided in his word the Bible. It is even more plain if one listens to the voice of God... He explains everything as is needed. Christ is my Father... who became a man... and this is completely supported by the Bible when one reads the text and adds nothing to it. (How about you check out those other verses posted along with the reply... and address them)

take care

FOW

Jedi · Nov 12, 2002

When the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah, he went to the gentiles. Even though the Jews didn't recognize him while he was here doesn't change the fact.

He hung around both Jews and Gentiles. He merely visited the Gentiles more, because they wouldnt have been reached out to otherwise. Matthew 9:12 seems to sum it up.

How would I have contradicted myself?

Because you stated that you believed that Jesus is the messiah. If you had gone with the modern Jews on this subject, saying that Jesus is the messiah wouldnt be consistent (Im speaking of people being Jewish in religion, not merely in ethnicity).

Kain · Nov 12, 2002

drmmjr, a word of advice. Before you accept OldShepherd's selective quotes as fact, go read the links yourself.

You'll find that the Zohar has gone through many 'changes' between the time of Christ and now. It's generally not considered a source of reliable information on Judaism. It's spiritual mysticism at best.

edpobre · Nov 12, 2002

Originally posted by Jedi
So does this mean that since Im a son, a brother, and a nephew, that Im not one person? By golly, Im more than one thing and described in more than one way, so I must be three separate persons.

Are you saying that God is ONE person who is a Father, a Son and a Spirit? Is this what the Bible teaches?  Please show the verse to support this.

Tell me, where does it say or even imply Jesus is talking about Salvation (from verses 54 to 59)? I'd very much like to know. His claim here is of divinity, not salvation.

There is NOTHING in these verses which indicates that Jesus was talking or claiming divinity. I dare you to show me.

On the other hand, when Jesus said: "Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad," the Jews THOUGHT that he was referring to his birthday.  So they asked if he had seen Abraham since he was not yet 50.

And Jesus answered by saying "Before Abraham was, I AM." Tell me jedi, what "day of Christ" did Abraham SEE that made him glad? And what has this got to do with Christ being God?

Hebrews 1:8 anyone? This is also not to mention the countless titles attributed to Christ that are due to only God himself. Funny how youve stayed completely away from those evidences.

If Heb. 1:8 were ACCURATE translation, there would be TWO Gods and one God is SUPERIOR to the other God  since one God is the God of the other (Heb. 1:9). Moreover, the number of Gods would be infinite because the anointed God has innumerable COMPANIONS or fellows.

Ed

Jedi · Nov 13, 2002

Are you saying that God is ONE person who is a Father, a Son and a Spirit? Is this what the Bible teaches? Please show the verse to support this.

I have already given you paragraph after paragraph supporting the conclusion that Jesus=God, Father=God, Holy Spirit=God, and God=1. Ignoring the facts doesnt mean they dont exist. If you didnt listen to me the first and second time, what makes me think youd listen if I posted it a third time?

There is NOTHING in these verses which[sic] indicates that Jesus was talking or claiming divinity. I dare you to show me.

I already have. For the thousandth time, the people around him clearly understood what he was claiming when they tried to stone him for blasphemy.

On the other hand, when Jesus said: "Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad," the Jews THOUGHT that he was referring to his birthday. So they asked if he had seen Abraham since he was not yet 50.

Where does it say anything about the Jews thinking Christ was referring to his birthday? Looking forward to his time, yes, but it says nothing about his birthday.

And Jesus answered by saying "Before Abraham was, I AM." Tell me jedi[sic], what "day of Christ" did Abraham SEE that made him glad? And what has this got to do with Christ being God?

Because Christ not only says I existed before Abraham, but went out of his way to use the title I AM to describe himself. I would repost all the titles attributed to Christ that are due only to God himself, but I feel you would just ignore them again.

If Heb. 1:8 were ACCURATE translation, there would be TWO Gods and one God is SUPERIOR to the other God since[sic] one God is the God of the other (Heb. 1:9). Moreover, the number of Gods would be infinite because the anointed God has innumerable COMPANIONS or fellows.

So this is what it boils down to: If something doesnt follow in your line of thinking in the Bible, reject it and call it inaccurate. Never mind the fact that the same thing is said in Hebrews 1:8 in the NIV, NASB, AMP, NLT, KJV, ESV, CEV, NKJV, KJ21, ASV, WE, YLT, DARBY, and WYC versions (Its unanimous). Your accusation that this isnt an accurate translation is pure bull and appears to be a last ditch effort to hold to your stance. If you dont believe what the Bible says, then theres no reason for you to even be in this discussion.

When it says your God, its the same as saying the one who you believe to be God, which God, will, of course, see to be himself. His companions mentioned are the companions of Christ (angelic and human). The God part of Christ elevated Christ as a whole to such glory.

edpobre · Nov 13, 2002

Originally posted by Jedi

Are you saying that God is ONE person who is a Father, a Son and a Spirit? Is this what the Bible teaches? Please show the verse to support this.

Click to expand...

I have already given you paragraph after paragraph supporting the conclusion that Jesus=God, Father=God, Holy Spirit=God, and God=1. Ignoring the facts doesnt mean they dont exist. If you didnt listen to me the first and second time, what makes me think youd listen if I posted it a third time?

 In an earlier post you said:

Originally posted by Jedi
So does this mean that since Im a son, a brother, and a nephew, that Im not one person? By golly, Im more than one thing and described in more than one way, so I must be three separate persons.

Now tell me what you truly believe in: a) God is ONE person like you who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, ALL at the SAME time; or b) God is ONE 'being' in THREE 'persons' of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Tell me honestly jedi: when you say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, how MANY Gods can you count - one or three?

There is NOTHING in these verses which[sic] indicates that Jesus was talking or claiming divinity. I dare you to show me.

Click to expand...

I already have. For the thousandth time, the people around him clearly understood what he was claiming when they tried to stone him for blasphemy.

Go back to your post jedi so you will know what I am talking about. You cited John 8:54-59 and said that these verses indicate that Jesus was claiming to be God. Show me which of these verses and tell me how you come up with  this conclusion. 

On the other hand, when Jesus said: "Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad," the Jews THOUGHT that he was referring to his birthday. So they asked if he had seen Abraham since he was not yet 50.

Click to expand...

Where does it say anything about the Jews thinking Christ was referring to his birthday? Looking forward to his time, yes, but it says nothing about his birthday.

You say "looking forward to his time."  Can you tell me what you mean by "his time?"

And Jesus answered by saying "Before Abraham was, I AM." Tell me jedi[sic], what "day of Christ" did Abraham SEE that made him glad? And what has this got to do with Christ being God?

Click to expand...

Because Christ not only says I existed before Abraham, but went out of his way to use the title I AM to describe himself. I would repost all the titles attributed to Christ that are due only to God himself, but I feel you would just ignore them again.

Did Jesus TRULY say "I existed before Abraham?" Please show me the verse jedi. IOtherwise, I would think that you simply  PUT words in Jesus' mouth then EXPECT me to believe.

I ask again jedi: what "day of Christ" did Abraham SEE that made him glad? And what has this got to do with Christ being God?

If Heb. 1:8 were ACCURATE translation, there would be TWO Gods and one God is SUPERIOR to the other God since[sic] one God is the God of the other (Heb. 1:9). Moreover, the number of Gods would be infinite because the anointed God has innumerable COMPANIONS or fellows.

Click to expand...

So this is what it boils down to: If something doesnt follow in your line of thinking in the Bible, reject it and call it inaccurate. Never mind the fact that the same thing is said in Hebrews 1:8 in the NIV, NASB, AMP, NLT, KJV, ESV, CEV, NKJV, KJ21, ASV, WE, YLT, DARBY, and WYC versions (Its unanimous).

Is the popular version of Heb. 1:8 CONSISTENT with the ACCEPTED (by ALL Christian religions) doctrine that there is ONLY ONE God? Yes or No jedi.

Your accusation that this isnt an accurate translation is pure bull and appears to be a last ditch effort to hold to your stance. If you dont believe what the Bible says, then theres no reason for you to even be in this discussion.

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). This is Bible CLEAR and SIMPLE jedi. Do you believe this? If not, why are you even in this forum? 

When it says your God, its the same as saying the one who you believe to be God, which God, will, of course, see to be himself.

I'm not that stupid to believe what you are saying. You are trying to squirm yourself out of a hole which you dug yourself in and you want to pull me in with you.

His companions mentioned are the companions of Christ (angelic and human). The God part of Christ elevated Christ as a whole to such glory.

 

Tell me, jedi. Why would God ANOINT another God ABOVE his "angelic and human" COMPANIONS?  God is INHERENTLY above all these and does NOT need to be anointed.

You say "the God part of Christ elevated Christ..." You must be pulling my leg jedi. You are saying that it was the "God part of Christ" who said, "thy throne of God," to Christ, right? And it was the "God part of Christ" who ANOINTED Christ ABOVE Christ's "angelic and human" COMPANIONS? This is a JOKE, right? Ha! Ha! Ha!

This only shows the extent of damage that a pseudo-messenger of God can do!

Ed

fieldsofwind · Nov 13, 2002

Posted by edpobre: "[Isaiah 37:16 says the Lord God CREATED heavens and earth. Isaiah 46:9 says there is NO other God besid Him. Isaiah 63:16 identifies the Father as the oinly one God. Isaiah 64:8 identifies the Father as rhe "potter" meaning the CREATOR. Malachi 2:10 identifies the Father as the ONLY creator.]"

Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.

take care

fieldsofwind · Nov 13, 2002

Here are the verses that go along with it... take care!

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son: today I have become your Father. Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:10 He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. (Notice at the beginning of this God says TODAY I have become your Father indicating that He wasnt always while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13(Jesus speaking) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

10) Colossians 2:9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13While we wait for the blessed hopethe glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God!

13) John 18:3-6So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, Who is it you want? Jesus of Nazareth, they replied. I am he, Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, I am he, they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

Jedi · Nov 13, 2002

Now tell me what you truly believe in: a) God is ONE person like you who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, ALL at the SAME time; or b) God is ONE 'being' in THREE 'persons' of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Its two different ways of describing the same thing. Just like 1x1x1=1. It is an illustration for your human mind to understand how one person can be three things, yet one.

Tell me honestly jedi[sic]: when you say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, how MANY Gods can you count - one or three?

I count one. Scripture is very clear on the deity of these three, as you so avidly ignore, and scripture is also very clear that there is only one God. You do the math.

Go back to your post jedi so you will know what I am talking about. You cited John 8:54-59 and said that these verses indicate that Jesus was claiming to be God. Show me which of these verses and tell me how you come up with this conclusion.

Are you intentionally ignoring what I say just to show how irritating you can be? Listen very carefully: The people around him clearly understood what he was claiming when they tried to pick up stones and kill him. It was very clear as to what he was saying. Not only that, but in choosing the title I am, he changed the tense he was speaking in. Before, he was speaking in the past tense (Before Abraham was...), but now he goes into the present tense to explain his existence in the past by saying I am. By doing this, hes explaining that he existed before Abraham, as well as attributing a title to himself due to only God.

You say "looking forward to his time." Can you tell me what you mean by "his time?"

His coming to earth, the coming of the messiah, his ministry, his bringing the New Covenant, etc.

Did Jesus TRULY say "I existed before Abraham?" Please show me the verse jedi[sic]. IOtherwise[sic], I would think that you simply PUT words in Jesus' mouth then EXPECT me to believe.

Youre beyond blind. Helen Keller would have one up on you. When Christ said, Before Abraham was born, I am, hes answering their objection on how he could have known Abraham, by claiming existence before Abraham (This is him answering their question). Not only that, but like I said, the change in tense, and his use of a very clear & popular title due to only God himself is present when he says I am.

I ask again jedi: what "day of Christ" did Abraham SEE that made him glad? And what has this got to do with Christ being God?

Day isnt only a mere 24-hour period, but can also be used to speak of a certain period of time. The day of the Lord is not a single, exact, down to the second, 24-hour period.

Is the popular version of Heb. 1:8 CONSISTENT with the ACCEPTED (by ALL Christian religions) doctrine that there is ONLY ONE God? Yes or No jedi[sic].

Yep. Now you tell me, Edpobre, are you going to believe the Bible? Yes or no, Edpobre.

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). This is Bible CLEAR and SIMPLE jedi[sic]. Do you believe this? If not, why are you even in this forum?

The Bible also states that Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8). I never said Jesus was never a man. If you would actually listen instead of speaking before you think, you would know that I hold the stance that he is both God and man. He is God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9).

I'm not that stupid to believe what you are saying. You are trying to squirm yourself out of a hole which you dug yourself in and you want to pull me in with you.

Im explaining it according to what scripture teaches. Youre the one squirming by trying to discredit the Bible when it says Jesus is God.

Tell me, jedi. Why would God ANOINT another God ABOVE his "angelic and human" COMPANIONS? God is INHERENTLY above all these and does NOT need to be anointed.

God anoints himself (not another God, but the same God) in the form of Christ. Like I said, Christ is both God and man, and the God part anointed Christ as a whole above his companions.

You say "the God part of Christ elevated Christ..." You must be pulling my leg jedi[sic]. You are saying that it was the "God part of Christ" who said, "thy throne of God," to Christ, right? And it was the "God part of Christ" who ANOINTED Christ ABOVE Christ's "angelic and human" COMPANIONS? This is a JOKE, right? Ha! Ha! Ha!

Scripture speaks for itself. All you seem to be able to do is mock and reject what scripture says. Your argument is not against me, but against the Bible.

This only shows the extent of damage that a pseudo-messenger of God can do!

Youre the one rejecting scripture; not me. I stand with the Bible. Who do you side with? If you start to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe, the God of the Bible is not yours, since you are no longer believing in the Bible, but yourself.

OldShepherd · Nov 16, 2002

Originally posted by drmmjr
fieldsofwind,

John 1:1--"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

Actually, it is "the same was in the beginning with God".

Acutally no it is not "the same". this translates the Greek word outos which means "this" or "he" and refers back to the immediately preceding antecedent in the proper case, number, and person which in this case is "Logos" I discussed that here.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/21028-21.html

DRMMJR:

Click to expand...

What does "logos" mean?

logos (log'-os); from NT:3004; etc., etc. etc.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Does any of this say that "logos" = Jesus? No. But Jesus is the result of that "logos". Just like when someone plans to build something, the building is not physical when it is first though of. It is a thought that later becomes physical.

You are correct the definition in your source does not "prove" that Jesus was the Logos. But that is irrelevant, neither do the definitions of many words in either Testament, applied to God and Jesus, specify God or Jesus as part of their definition. Nice little irrelevant smokescreen. Read the passage again, it does not say that Jesus was a result of the Logos but that the Logos became flesh

A question. What was The Word or more precisely the Memra in Old Testament, pre-Christian Judaism? Answer, God Himself. My previous post on this.

http://www.christianforums.com/show...5796&highlight=jewish+encyclopedia#post425796

A short quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia Memra Article. In this article over 100 scriptures are cited, most of which Memra is substituted for the divine name יהוה (YHWH). In pre-Christian Judaism The Word, i.e. Memra, was God, and that is exactly what John says.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Memra

Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God" is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4).

DRMMJR: And how is a discussion about the trinity a nonexistent argument? And what did I claim was wrong that whoever I was discussing with never said?

Here is your previous post and my answer. The straw man is the word group

DRMMJR: "If you study the Old Testament, you will see that Jewish people don't believe in a "trinity" or any "group" that makes up God. They believe that God exists. That God is one and unique. There is only one God and He is a unity, single, whole, a complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts."

OS: Straw man! Christians do not believe in any group that makes up God. And if you study other Jewish sources, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia published in 1911, you will find that a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in pre-Christian Judaism. Whats that you say? Orthodox Judaism rejected the Trinity. Sorry that is not a big selling point. These are the same guys who reject Jesus as the promised Messiah and even call Jesus a mamzer i.e. b#stard and Mary a prostitute, in the Talmud. Also just to set the record straight Trinitarians do not divide God into parts.

DRMMJR: In fact, in Indian religion there is the Trinitarian group of Brahma, Vishna, and Shiva; in Egyptian religion there is the group of Kneph, Phthas, and Osiris. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods were Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus. In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, Illinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco.

No, God was different from these other "gods". He is not a three parted being.

In fact there is no Trinity in any ancient religion with the exception of Judaism. A Trinity is, one which is revealed, manifested, etc. in three distinct persons. Anti-Christian postulations by 19th or 20th writers, haphazardly, arbitrarily grouping three ancient deities, for the sole purpose of trying to refute Christianity, is not a Trinity. There are no ancient historical sources which document any grouping of three deities which, ruled, reigned, etc., together in concert, in the pantheons of India, Egypt, Rome, Babylonia, Assyria, Celts, and Germanic nations, or any other ancient civilization you care to name.

No, God was different from these other "gods". He is not a three parted being. Another straw man! According to Christianity, God is not a three parted being. Scroll back I posted that the basic tenet of Christianity is Hear O Israel YHWH our God, YHWH, is one.

drmmjr · Nov 16, 2002

John 1:1
1:1 En archeé eén ho Lógos
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In the beginning was the Word,
kaí ho Lógos eén prós tón Theón
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and the Word was with God,
kaí theós eén ho Lógos
2532 2316 2258 3588 3056
and God. was the Word

1:2 Hoútos eén en archeé prós
3778 2258 1722 9999 746 4314
The_same was in the beginning with
tón Theón
3588 2316
God.
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)

NT:3778
houtos (hoo'-tos); including nominative masculine plural houtoi (hoo'-toy); nominative feminine singular haute (how'-tay); and nominative feminine plural hautai (how'-tahee); from the article NT:3588 and NT:846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):

KJV - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, as you can see, houtos means "he", "it", "she", "the same", etc. When I posted "the same was with God in the beginning", I was showing that which meaning of houtos depending on which translation is used. It's not a clear cut thing.

Gerry · Nov 16, 2002

No, but you almost got it right. It actually is:

Jesus: ALL man, ALL God, ALL Action, ALL the time!

Originally posted by Starscream
I can just see the Hollywood hype ...

Jesus:  part man, part God, ALL ACTION!

Kain · Nov 16, 2002

According to false trinitarian doctrine, God the Son who is God ascends to the right hand of God the Father who is God.

God besides God.

Either the trinitarians are wrong or the bible is lying.

Dt.32:39
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me."

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

The trinity doctrine being dead, from this we can draw one of two conclusions:

1. that Jesus himself was God, not another person of God. But other scripture disagrees with this concept as well.

2. that Jesus was the anoited of God (God doesn't require anoniting), the begotten son of God (God is not begotten), given extraordinary authority by God, his father, for the purpose of defeating evil, who upon completion of this task, will return all authority back to God.

These verses destroy both the trinity doctrine of co-equal gods in one and the doctrine of monophysitism.

Jesus will return authority to God

1 Cor 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's will be done, not Jesus's.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

The Father is greater than Jesus:

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus not considered as God, but as Lord Messiah.

1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God appoints Jesus the man as a vassel through whom He will do his works:

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Jesus admits he has a God.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Nothing ambiguous about these verses. Clear cut declarations of Jesus as a separate, distinct, appointed man whom the only God has chosen.

hraedisc · Nov 16, 2002

Did the fully God part of Jesus die on the Cross?
Did the fully man part of Jesus die on the Cross?

hraedisc · Nov 16, 2002

Rev 1: 18
"I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!"

Gerry · Nov 16, 2002

No grade school math student can attest to any such thing. Besides I agree with you when you are speaking about jesus, whoever that is. But Jesus is another story entirely and don't you get it yet? Have you been around long enough to know that an ant cannot understand anything at all about you and how you operate? Why do you insist that you as a finite being be able to understand an Infinite God?

And the nature of your simple questions shows a noticeable lack of understanding of The Godhead. If you had a basic aquaintance with that topic you would understand the simple questions you have asked.

May I suggest. A Bible, a Bible dictionary, and a basic commentary would straighten all this out for you!

Originally posted by Grizzly
Ok, I posted this on another thread, but it might be more appropriate here. If you accept the Trinity theory, then a whole bunch of logical impossibilities can occur.

1) you have to accept that jesus was both 100% man and 100% God. As anyone who has taking grade school math can attest, this is not possible.

2) When Jesus went off by himself to pray, who was he praying to? Was he praying to himself? Makes no sense.

3) When Jesus went off into the desert and was tempted by the devil. If Jesus is God, then who cares? How do you tempt God into sinning. Can't be done.

4) It is said that Jesus led the perfect life and therefore his death was the perfect sacrifice. Once again, if Jesus is God, then who cares? How hard is it for God to lead the perfect life? I would say it would be pretty easy. But if Jesus were a man.....

5) When Jesus was on the cross, he cried out " Eloi, Eloi, Lema Sabachthane?" He was clearly suffering here and was crying out to God. If he were God, why is he crying out to himself.

6) Jesus died on the Cross. How can you kill God? Impossible.

7) The salvation story. If Jesus is God, then the Salvation story boils down to "God sacrificied himself to appease himself". Makes NO sense.

I have to admit, Jesus as Man makes the story fit alot better.

fieldsofwind · Nov 16, 2002

and dear kain... open your eyes to see. Not one of the verses you posted disagrees with the following post, and yet your interpretation completely disagrees with the numerous other verses applying to Christ as God. They are not separate minds... individuals... but God became separate when He humbled Himself and became flesh. Read the below... and the following posts. And yes... Christ (God who became flesh out of love) will become subject to the Father (God who remained in majesty because God is both magnificent and love... requiring the sacrifice) and God will be once again... all in all. Don't you see the picture here? Can you not understand that if God did not make that sacrifice then it all means nothing? Here... learn
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Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
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Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

(Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

... but as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.
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Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

fieldsofwind · Nov 16, 2002

now read that... pick it apart if you like... show me the error through God's word... and you will be proven erroneous. The Spirit is within me, and I know who my Father is.

Here are the verses once again... The verses you post agree completely with the above post. However, the verses I post disagree completely with your post. That tells us something doesn't it.

Chew these apart...

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son: today I have become your Father. Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:10 He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. (Notice at the beginning of this God says TODAY I have become your Father indicating that He wasnt always while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13(Jesus speaking) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

10) Colossians 2:9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13While we wait for the blessed hopethe glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God!

13) John 18:3-6So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, Who is it you want? Jesus of Nazareth, they replied. I am he, Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, I am he, they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

OldShepherd · Nov 16, 2002

Posted by DR
NT:3778 houtos (hoo'-tos); including nominative masculine plural houtoi (hoo'-toy); nominative feminine singular haute (how'-tay); and nominative feminine plural hautai (how'-tahee); from the article NT:3588 and NT:846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):

KJV - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, as you can see, houtos means "he", "it", "she", "the same", etc. When I posted "the same was with God in the beginning", I was showing that which meaning of houtos depending on which translation is used. It's not a clear cut thing.

Last things first. It most certainly is a clear cut thing! I dont rely on different versions or translations, I read both Biblical languages and if there is a question I resolve it with the assistance of recognized language authorities.

As I said outos does not mean the same although some versions translate it that way. Note, even in your own quote from Biblesoft, the definition has only these meanings, the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated): but it is translated the same, 28 times out of 356 occurrences, in the KJV, according to my Strongs. So while it can be understood to mean the same that is not a required definition as you stated in the previous post.

3778 outoV 'outos, hoo-tos

including nominative masculine plural outoi houtoi hoo-toy, nominative feminine singular auth haute how-tay and nominative feminine plural autai hautai how-tahee
from the article 3588 and 846;; pron
AV - this 157, these 59, he 31, the same 28, this man 25, she 12, they 10, misc 34; 356

1) this, these, etc.

Jedi · Nov 17, 2002

According to false trinitarian[sic] doctrine, God the Son who is God ascends to the right hand of God the Father who is God.

And I can bring my right hand upward so that it is exactly to the right of my head. I guess it must've not been a part of me in the first place, huh? Since it wasn't there beforehand and all. Jesus is God, and I've only seen those who reject the trinity squirm when it comes to the clear proofs of the Bible supporting this conclusion.

Either the trinitarians[sic] are wrong or the bible is lying.

If this were a multiple choice test, and we were graded upon which option we chose given this selection, everyone would fail, because you left out a third option: The Trinitarians are right, the Bible teaches it as clearly demonstrated by scripture, and the non-Trinitarians say "No, it isn't so" only because they don't understand it. You reject it, because your finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite God. To reject it for this reason is highly nonsensical. Again, let me repost my evidences that non-Trinitarians have utterly failed to respond to:

Jesus himself claimed to be Yahweh. He prayed, And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began (John 17:5). But Yahweh of the Old Testament said, I will not give my glory to another (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus also declared, I am the first and the last (Revelation 1:17)precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 42:8. Jesus said, I am the good shepherd (John 10:11), but the Old Testament said, Yahweh is my shepherd (Psalms 23:1). Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all people (Matthew 25:31f; John 5:27), but Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of himself as the bridegroom (Matthew 25:1) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the Psalmist declares, The Lord is my light (Psalms 27:1), Jesus said, I am the light of the world (John 8:12).

Another claim Jesus made to be Yahweh is in John 8:58, where he says, Before Abraham was, I am. This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the I AM of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (cf. John 8:58, and 10:31-33). The same claim is made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Exodus 20:1-4; Deuteronomy 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that humans refused worship (Acts 14:15), as did angels (Revelation 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, showing he claimed to be God. A healed leper worshiped him (Matthew 8:2), a group of Canaanite women (Matthew 15:25), the mother of James and John (Matthew 20:20), the Gerasene demoniac (Mark 5:6), all worshiped Jesus without a word of rebuke. The disciples worshiped him after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17). This could only be allowed by a person who seriously considered himself to be God. Not only did Jesus accept this worship due to God alone without rebuking those who gave it, but he even commended those who acknowledged his deity (John 20:29, Matthew 16:17).

This is also not to mention very clear verses where Jesus is flat out addressed as God in such examples as Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8.

Jesus is fully God & fully man

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