Macedonia is Greek !!!!!

Michael the Iconographer said:

At this point I guess I should log off TAW. Maybe when you self righteous ethnocentric Orthodox learn that the world does not revolve arround you I will return, until then I have much better things to do with my time. Tscheuss!

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Michael, I am sorry that you took it personally but I would call whinner anyone who "whined" about the "ethnic orthodoxy".... I am not refering to only you but to anyone who does goes on and on about how .... bad ethnicity is for Orthodoxy... while they appear "hollier than though" about their own country... Religion is part of our society I happen to disagree this is my opinion. You can accept it or reject it your choice.

Why should you feel used? In what way I failed you? Sorry I have an opinion... We have a democracy the last time I checked. I am personally tired fo the "ethnicity" issue. We are Orthodox Christians who were born and raised Greek orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Arab(antinochian Orthdox) etc. All these countries suffered "pursecution" both for being Christian and most had their borders compromised or totally ocupied. This is history that no one can wipe the same way we cannot wipe out the American revolution against the Brits... and the slavery in America. No one can paint a pretty picture for the slavery in America. there are facts... about it. The same way our countries suffered they were occuppied by other faiths their christian people were suffering...The same with the Russians the communist pursecuted christians... The very Orthdoxy you "enjoy" today was brought to you by there nations' hierarchs who had vision and courage to bring it over to the New World. Is it typical though to easily forget and be thankful for what we have? What others have endured to keep their faith? Faith and ethnicity are rightly joined as they were both compromised under the yoke of the enemy... in all countries of orhtodoxy faith. It would be nice just for once if you and other critics could only recognize that and instead of been "sicke and tired" of ethnicity would realize that we too "are sick and tired" or the ingratitude we feel for what our countries offered to world Orthdoxy... I fail to see how all Orthodox Patriarchates whould have survived and "spread satelites" to America if it would not have been for the "individual ethnic effords" of these countries... I am appauled at the small mindness, tunnel vision and overwhelming sentiment that is spread conserning ethnicity and Orthdoxy...

From a theological perspective I will only say this.. The Gospel is written in Greek, the Fathers wrote in Greek and the Gospel was spread in a Hellenistic environment. No matter how hard we try "not to be Greek" (since association with Greek is so repulsive in this forum...) it is there ... we cannot reduce it or augment it. The fact that Christ's said in the Gospel that Greeks came "The son of God maybe glorified". Yes, I know many interpretations can be given... but in my opinion whoever had the greek phronema (ethos) was Greek. Not Greek by origin but by ethos, and knowledge. To be a Hellene was not only by origin...


That my answer also my friend's HistoryNut question that Macedonians were not Greek.... Helene was not only the one who was speaking Greek... but most importantly he who had Greek Paidia. (be greek educated)... So Macedonians were like the Spartans, the Thiveans, the Corinthians etc... they were Helenes with distinct place in Hellas.

Also I can bring foth DNA testing that testifies to the prof that Macedonian Greeks are different from the Slavic/Macedonian people who reside upon the present time FYROM from respected uniersities in the USA. The Greek population has remained "unmingled" as far its DNA according to "old" relatively studies.

And please do not tell us what the ancient writers majority tell about our country... This is slanted evidence. You have to read these within the context which is that they were part of the Athenian alliance. As we know there was fight among the different city states and it is "normal" for Athenians to claim superiority as far as their Greekness. Do not try to take advandang of this and "create evidence". We can read history in its original Greek.... What is the matter you do not speak or write Greek??? ha? I thought you were descendants of Alexander????

Language has lots to do with ethnicity.... You cannot say you want to be called France and fail to speak french.... hahaha that is the lamest of all arguments...

All in a Name

by Dora Bakoyiannis




(‘The Wall Street Journal’, 1 April, 2008)
[link to original article]

The NATO summit comes to Southeastern Europe this week, and Greece is looking forward to it. The choice of Bucharest as the summit's host holds stark symbolism. Romania, having joined, alongside Bulgaria, the trans-Atlantic alliance in 2004 and the European Union last year, is a clear success story for our neighborhood.
As the region's oldest NATO and EU member, Greece feels a profound obligation to be constructive, supportive and practical regarding our neighbors. We wholeheartedly espouse the policy of enlargement, and I am happy to say that two members of the so-called "Adriatic Three," Croatia and Albania, are today in a position to further the principles of the North Atlantic Treaty and earn their invitation to NATO in Bucharest. However, it saddens me that we cannot so far say the same about our neighbor, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom).
For over 15 years, our two countries have been involved in United Nations-sponsored negotiations regarding Fyrom's name. Greece has real and concrete concerns over the issue. What's in a name, you may ask? A great deal, I can assure you. The term "Macedonia" has always been used to delineate a wider geographical region, approximately 51% of which is part of Greece, 38% of which is in Fyrom, and 9% of which is in Bulgaria.
Not only does the government in Skopje insist on being the sole claimant to the name of an entire area -- the largest part of which lies outside its borders -- but authorities in Fyrom insist on portraying Greek Macedonia as "occupied" territory. While government leaders declare they have no designs on Greek territory, they refuse to remove such claims from textbooks, state maps and national documents. Only a few weeks ago, the country's prime minister was photographed laying a wreath on a monument to which a map of the so-called "Greater Macedonia" was attached; the map incorporated a considerable part of Northern Greece, including Greece's second-largest city, Thessaloniki.
Winston Churchill is said to have observed once that "The Balkans produce much more history than they can consume." Make no mistake: Given this sensitive region's historical baggage, the monopolization of the term Macedonia by a single state is in no way conducive to good neighborly relations or regional stability. Perpetuating problems is always a recipe for trouble. We need a real solution to a real problem.
And we are not alone in our quest. In the U.S. Congress, 115 members, both Republicans and Democrats, recently co-sponsored House Resolution 356, which expressed the "sense of the House of Representatives that Fyrom should stop hostile activities and propaganda against Greece, and should work with the United Nations and Greece to find a mutually acceptable official name." Senators Robert Menendez, Olympia Snowe and Barack Obama introduced a similar resolution in the Senate.
Greece has spared no effort in responding to Fyrom's quest for economic growth and political stability. Greece is the country's largest foreign investor, with over $1 billion invested and more than 20,000 jobs created in the last decade, and is one of its biggest trade partners.
We have come to the table with a clear objective: A long-overdue, mutually acceptable, composite name that includes the designation of Macedonia, but attaches an adjective to it to distinguish it from the broader geographical area of Macedonia. Greece has engaged in this process constructively and with an open mind. In an unprecedented policy shift, our government has unilaterally gone two-thirds of the way, accepting a number of proposals from U.N. mediator Matthew Nimetz as a basis for discussion. We have proven to be considerably flexible in our quest for a win-win solution.
Unfortunately, our friends in Skopje have so far failed to cover any ground. They will not even agree to the basis of our talks, although it is clearly defined in two U.N. Security Council resolutions and one General Assembly resolution.
Their counterproductive policy violates the basic principle of good neighborly relations -- a fundamental condition for any candidate country's Euro-Atlantic aspirations. As far as NATO is concerned, the Alliance has been unwavering in its demand that aspirant countries fulfill this criterion. NATO has consistently encouraged full normalization of relations not only with aspirants themselves but with neighboring third countries not belonging to the Alliance.
Greece will spare no effort in reaching a real and viable solution for the sake of peace and stability in the region. Alliances and partnerships, however, can only be fostered among countries if there is mutual trust and goodwill.
*Ms. Bakoyannis is Greece's foreign minister.

TWo things History Nut...

First I am a native Greek and a grad of the Seminary in America second... I feel pity for your fiance...

My regards,
Philothei

"it is better to be envied than pitied"

Herodotus

Fallacy #3
Ancient Macedonians were a tribe similar to the Greeks, but not Greek themselves.
Fact #3

Ancient Macedonians were one of more than the 230 Hellenic tribes, sub-tribes, and families of the Hellenic Nation that spoke more than 200 dialects. For more information see Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livius, Strabo, Nevi'im, Ketuvim, Apocrypha (Macabees I, 1-2). It was not until 1945 that their Hellenism has been challenged by the Slavs for expansionistic reasons.

Fact #1

The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians. Here are some testimonies from The FYROM’s officials:
a. The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).
b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).
c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”
d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."
e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”


How about Gligorov?? was he that stupid to say that about his country? He was just an educated "unbiased man"....

Fallacy #6

Ancient Macedonia was a nation state.
Fact #6

Before Phillip II, Macedonia was divided into small typical city-states having adopted the same concept of internal civic structure as the southern Greek city-states. Each Macedonian city-state or area had its own main city and government. Philip II united the Macedonian city-states by instituting and establishing a Homeric style of a Kingdom, maintaining the infrastructure of the smaller city-states with the various kings paying tribute to the king of all Macedonia. We know this from the fact that at one time the king of Lyncestis (present day Bitola - Florina) was Alexander. The point that has to be made clear is that a man’s first loyalty was to his city, not to the King of Macedonia (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 9).




Also since you mentioned about the History of the Macedonia territory prior to Alexander.....All city states so typical of Greece... Same language same customs... only Philip united them to a Kingdom... no holes in this history...

for what? lol...

How the fact that Gligorov does not believe that FYROM is not the ancient Macedonia(at least not ALL of Macedonia) can be a straw man?? He was the president of FYROM that should say a lot.

Second just because I have not studied Ancient Greek civilization that does not mean I am ignorant... thanks for your personal attack too... Also you are not an Ancient Greek scholar either especially you cannot speak or write Greek ...so there is your disadvantage.

There is no "neutral history" you are either Greek or not and you are either Slav or not. There is no such thing as neutral archeological evidence proves that Alexander was born in Pella also. As far the how people look like ...dah ...alll mediterenean people look alike pretty much from afar.. but when you look closer you can see the Roman nose the Greek nose the characteristics that are so prominent and scientists distinguish different people.

My saying about your girlfriend was not an attack but an observation... I do not think there is anything wrong saying that a Greek looks like a Turk... no biggy we all look alike but doubting her ethnicity is outrageous!!!


If you have no professional opinion... then why you think that by just pasting your quote mines is going to make a difference?? It does not because bottom line all history is tinted in our times.. and everything is up for grabs. I am not going to play the quote-mine game here either. Archeological evidence proves that Macedonia is in its majority in the Greek side. That is enough for me and apparently for the NATO nations who sided with Greece.


Vassilie I knwo that this has nothing to do with Orthodoxy. It is though a matter of ethnic significance and a moral act of identity theft. We cannot say that America went to Iraque to "liberate" the Iraque people from their tyrant and make it into a moral act of mercy but denying another nation to claim its national identity.

Quote:
Are you certain that the macedonians were Hellenes.
Yes.


Quote:
The majority of Ancient Greeks disputed this title with Macedonians. Orators like Demosthenes and Thrasymachus would have said that the Macedonias were not Greek.
Politically motivated orators are nowhere near to be considered as non-biased source of information. Even more if your example contains the leader of Anti-Macedonian Athenean party and an orator in his struggle to oppose the Macedonian threat to Thessaly. Easily someone could bring up the other side of the story by mentioning Lykiskos but the same also applies to him too. Statements from politicians were never a safe way for getting out definite conclusions.


Quote:
Linguistics might imply otherwise as well. Eumenes a Greek used a translator to talk to the Macedonia troops of his phalanx. Language is often but not always an indicator of different ethnicity.
False assertion. On the contrary Eumenes could communicate with Macedonians as easily someone could figure out from his speech to the phalanx after he was seized and tied. Just because Eumenes sent someone to talk to the Macedonian troops in Macedonian, doesnt mean anyway he couldnt understood them. In the same manner, we should assume that the Macedonian Antigenes, commander of argyraspids didnt speak Macedonian either and needed an translator, since he also dispatched one of his soldiers to talk to the phalanx. Even your own example, Demosthenes, wouldnt let this go and would certainly mention if Macedonian speech was not Greek. Recent Archaeological and ancient literary sources makes it explicitely Macedonian was a dialect of Greek.


Quote:
There is little to no evidence of Hellenization in Macedonia prior to the reign of Archelaus (413-399). Phillip II is the first Macedonian we have any proof of being educated in a Greek City state. Alexander is the first king of whose education we know much about at all. The Macedonians were essentially the first people in history to be hellenized
Even if you take it logically you could also conclude the following: During their migration, people dont go around renaming existing toponymies in someone else’s language. They obviously rename them into their own. The original Ancient Macedonians, at the time of their migration to the place later called Macedonia, renamed existing Phrygian toponymies into Greek. It would be quite absurb to rename toponymies into:

(i) Not their own language
(ii) A language they didnt…understand.

Furthermore there is no mention in ancient sources that Macedonians have been hellenized, as ancient sources mention quite clear about other ancient people (Thuc: Amphilochians, Plutarc.:kings of Molossians, etc)