Is the Catholic Church sex-negative? The perpetual virginity of Mary

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AndItWasGood

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Recently a Protestant friend claimed that the Catholic Church was sex-negative from the very beginning, and that that is the only reason why She thought it important to define Mary's Perpetual Virginity dogmatically - because She thought that if Mary did have normal marital relations, this would detract from her holiness, since sex is carnal and associated with sin and unbecoming of someone who is completely and utterly holy. She said that Protestants are indifferent to whether Mary remained a virgin because sex is proper and good within marriage and isn't the mark of sin. What my friend said made a lot of sense to me and I wasn't able to think of any other reason why the Church would want to define this dogmatically. What is the truth of the matter?
 

Rhamiel

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it is not "sex is bad" it is the idea of the sacredness, we have holy places, holy time (keep sacred the sabbath), holy water, and just about everything else, Mary is sacred, she was set aside for a great use, she was how Jesus was brought into the world, and she the vessal God used to become Man.
every analogy I can think of sounds crass, oh well, don't jump on my back too much for this
You do not use the Easter Candel to light your house when you have a power outage, yes it is a candel, but it is dedicated to God and has a special purpose now.
 
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Globalnomad

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There are around a billion Catholics in the world, obviously someone is doing a little shagging. In my experience protestants have a lot more hang ups about sex than Catholics do.

(That's true in my opinion. But the reason why Catholics have so many kids is not that they have more sex but that they don't allow birth control....)

Frankly, I think your Protestant friend is absolutely right, AIWG. The perpetual virginity of Mary is a terribly sex-negative idea. Rhamiel's attempted explanation only highlights the problem even better: anything that is holy is "above" sex..... "reserved"...(for what, from what???), "better than".....

Of course there is a historical explanation - "holy women" in Pagan times were associated with all kinds of ritual sex, which WAS against the Christian idea of loving, unitive monogamous sex. So Mary, while being defined as all-holy, had to be drastically separated from this idea of ritual sex-object.
 
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Rhamiel

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Rhamiel's attempted explanation only highlights the problem even better: anything that is holy is "above" sex..... "reserved"...(for what, from what???), "better than".....
Mary was set aside to be the Mother of God, that is what she was "reserved" for
 
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Caedmon

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"Sex-negative"? I'd turn your friend's statement on its head and say that the Church is, rather, "purity-positive." Unless, of course, you take seriously the - what we might perceive today as outlandish - sexual rubrics commonly believed and (supposedly/barely) practiced during the Middle Ages and Early Modern period in Europe.

Specifically concerning the Mary situation, theologically speaking, seriously problematic questions start popping up when you mate the immaculately-concepted Blessed Virgin Mary with Joseph, who would have been stained with Original Sin at birth. What kind of offspring would they produce? Immaculate/Original-Sin-stained hybrids?
 
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Carrye

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Perhaps it was defined because it is true - Mary was always a virgin.

Also, it's my understanding that at this time there were so-called "virgins of the temple" who were consecrated virgins. I believe it was then common for a man to be assigned as her caretaker/protector.

Sex is not sinful in itself, and the Church does not view it as such. Sex, in the proper context, is a holy act.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Also, there is no theological grounds of any force for Mary being a perpetual virgin, aside from the notion that someone who is completely holy cannot have sex...so what my friend said seemed to have a lot of truth to it.

That is not why Mary is called Ever Virgin. :)

This is the ancient teaching of the Church, both East and West.
 
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thereselittleflower

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(That's true in my opinion. But the reason why Catholics have so many kids is not that they have more sex but that they don't allow birth control....)

Frankly, I think your Protestant friend is absolutely right, AIWG. The perpetual virginity of Mary is a terribly sex-negative idea. Rhamiel's attempted explanation only highlights the problem even better: anything that is holy is "above" sex..... "reserved"...(for what, from what???), "better than".....

Of course there is a historical explanation - "holy women" in Pagan times were associated with all kinds of ritual sex, which WAS against the Christian idea of loving, unitive monogamous sex. So Mary, while being defined as all-holy, had to be drastically separated from this idea of ritual sex-object.

And so you set yourself up against the Magesterium of the Church and the ancient teaching of the Church?

So are you claiming that Mary was not actually Ever Virgin?
 
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stivvy

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No scriptural evidence? This is one of the scripture referrences the church sites.

Ezekiel 44:1-3

Gate for the Prince

1Then He brought me back by the way of the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces the east; and it was shut.

2The LORD said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. 3"As for the prince, he shall sit in it as prince to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the porch of the gate and shall go out by the same way."
 
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AndItWasGood

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Perhaps it was defined because it is true - Mary was always a virgin.


1) There was no solid theological grounds for this when the dogma was defined, aside from some apocryphal accounts which aren't supposed to count toward anything. Obviously now that the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is dogma, we know it is true.

2) Dogmas aren't defined "because they are true", but because they are true AND important. Why was/is it considered important that Mary remained a virgin after marriage? I can see no other reason than a sex-negative attitude.

 
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thereselittleflower

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1) There was no solid theological grounds for this when the dogma was defined, aside from some apocryphal accounts which aren't supposed to count toward anything. Obviously now that the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is dogma, we know it is true.

2) Dogmas aren't defined "because they are true", but because they are true AND important. Why was/is it considered important that Mary remained a virgin after marriage? I can see no other reason than a sex-negative attitude.

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Then I suggest you start studying the Catholic Faith more deeply and with an open heart willing to allow the Holy Sprit to lead you into understanding.

The Church's truths are not dependent on what you as an inidividual can see at this momment in time. :)


Have you considered why this subject is so important to you?
 
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Gwendolyn

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2) Dogmas aren't defined "because they are true", but because they are true AND important. Why was/is it considered important that Mary remained a virgin after marriage? I can see no other reason than a sex-negative attitude.

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Remember that everything about Mary points to Christ. The Immaculate Conception teaching isn't about Mary being super awesome. It is about Christ being fully human and fully divine. The perpetual virginity teaching isn't about Mary being so holy and pure because sex is evil. It is about Christ, the Saviour.

I'm not good at explaining things theologically. Maybe someone will be kind enough to give you a brief answer. But we've already had lots of posts on this subject. There's probably even some posts about this in the stickies.
 
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ZooMom

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The first thing you have to understand with regard to the Perpetual Virginity is that it had nothing to do with Mary's marital state. Church tradition is that Mary was consecrated to the Temple as a very young child...around three years old. It was her mother Anne's response to God who gifted her with pregnancy when she was barren (much like Sara and Elizabeth, both of whom produced very special children that carried out God's work). Around the time of her menses, it was no longer possible, because of the Jews religious taboos concerning uncleanliness, for her to remain in the temple. A husband had to be found for her. In that society, she had to have a protector and a provider...and that meant a husband. Because of her consecrated status, the Temple Elders weren't about to go out and grab the handiest young and randy fellow to fill that role. Tradition tells us that Joseph was an old man, widowed with grown sons, devout and willing to take the responsibility. The idea that Mary and Joseph were close in age...in love...two young healthy consenting adults is *nowhere to be found in Scripture*. This was not a 'normal' marriage by our standards today. Anyone who thinks it was is basing these unfounded theories on their own romantic notions. They have no support for it. Catholics, on the other hand, have the oral and recorded extra-Scriptural tradition of the Church. (Please note the little 't'.) Now, who has the basis for the better argument? The protestants? I don't think so. They base their whole argument on a modern idea of marriage and sexuality..and the highly debatable theory that Mary and Joseph even *wanted* to have s*x. How's that for a modern idea? She was, what 13...14, and he was probably pushing 60. Mary was a consecrated virgin, vowed to that state for her entire life before she was ever visited by the angel. So, she what...decided that becoming the Mother of God was a good time to start breaking her vows to Him? Aside from all the theological aspects of the pure and inviolate nature of the Blessed Virgin...the protestant argument just doesn't make sense from an historical, and logical, standpoint using the most reliable information.

Peace be with you.

Sandy
 
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ZooMom

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Tradition holds that Joseph was long dead before Christ ever got to the Cross. :) He is never mentioned after the Finding in the Temple...when Christ was about 12. Tradition also tells us that Joseph was mature, established in his craft, highly regarded by the Elders...not likely for a very young Jewish man...as they did not have enough grey in their beards to have attained wisdom. ;)
 
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