The Two Witnesses- possible answers

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Terral

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Hi Jen:

I gave Featherdedprop a detailed answer to his “Need Help With Daniel 9:24” query in Post #2 of this thread, if anyone is looking for a warm-up reply to begin sorting out the truth of this mystery. The biggest problem facing our members is that professing Bible experts have invented a 1000 Year Day of the Lord (2Peter 3:8) that has ‘no duration’ at all, which means they try to force all of those “1000 Year” events into a little tiny timeframe. Since practically everyone is blinded by their own homegrown forms of Denominationalism (Mystery of Iniquity = 2Thes 2:7-12 = the counterfeit), then these readers are judging answers from people with very little substance in Scriptural reality riddled with contradiction upon contradiction. The truth of this matter answers all the questions and says exactly what God says through His Living Word without creating a single contradiction anywhere. My best advice for solving all the seeming contradictions is the same given by the Apostle Paul, that says, “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.” 1Cor 3:18. In short, forget what you think you know about ‘end time’ prophecy (empty your cup) in order to create the space required to accept ‘the truth’ of what God is really saying through His Living Word.

Jen >> The Two Witnesses- possible answers

I came across this explanation of the two witnesses and timing and wondered if some here agree or disagree. (I don't know anything about the site so I'm not advocating it but I thought the study was well-thought out): http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=337

Excerpt:

Dr. John Whitcomb >> "For several reasons, I suggest that this is the first half of the Seventieth Week. First, there seems to be an intentional distinction between the time of the Gentile occupation of the Temple's outer court and the city, and the time of the two witnesses, by means of the different time-units used: 42 months for the Gentile domination and 1,260 days for the two witnesses. If the same time period is intended for both groups, why is not the 42-month time-block sufficient to cover both?
Our very first assignment to begin solving the “two witnesses” (Rev. 11) timeframe is to wake up and realize all of these prophecies are ‘fulfilled’ during ‘and’ at the ‘end’ of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord shown here and here in light blue. Today we are living through the “2000 Year Mystery Time” where Paul’s “The Mystery” (Eph 3:3, Col 1:26) Body of Christ is being formed in anticipation of assuming the Satanic Body heavenly positions vacated at their chaining (Rev. 20:2 = Rev. 1:10), when Christ returns at His ‘mystery coming’ (1Thes. 4:16-17 = my thread). To begin solving the ‘Two Witness’ timeframe problems, then you must grow into the realization that ‘our’ mystery Rapture ‘starts’ the 1000 Year Day of the Lord ‘and’ we return with Christ “in glory” (Col. 3:4) to END the same 1000 Year Day of the Lord. If you want to insist that we are living in the ‘prophetic’ END of the Age (Matt. 24:3+) times today, and wish to remain standing in the stench of that ignorance, then please hit the ‘back button’ and disregard my sayings on these topics entirely. The 1000 Year Day of the Lord BEGINS (2Thes 2:2 = comes) with our Rapture and we rule from “IN” the Lamb of Revelation for the same 1000 Years that Satan IS CHAINED, until the Dragon, his Beast and their False Prophet (Rev. 13) all incarnate onto this earth as mere men ‘and’ the END of the Age prophecies of Daniel, Zechariah, Ezekiel and everyone else are fulfilled. These two witnesses (your father and mother = Adam and Eve) make their appearance at the END of the Age still 1000 Years in the future of this earth ‘and’ only after many other events take place in a precise chronological order.

Dr. John Whitcomb >> Second, and more important, in the very next verse (Rev. 11:4), the ministry of the two witnesses is compared to the ministry of the two olive trees of Zech. 4:3, namely, Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the governor of the Jewish remnant, who returned from Babylon to re-establish legitimate worship in Jerusalem (Zech. 3:1 and 4:6). These leaders did not have to wait for the Temple to be rebuilt to begin sacrificing on the altar which they erected on the ruins of Solomon's Temple (cf. Ezra 3:2-3). By the same token, the two witnesses will not have to wait for the third temple to be built in order to begin sacrificing on a divinely legitimate altar on the present ruins of the second temple. What they will need is supernatural protection to re-institute the sacrifices (cf. Dan. 9:27) in the presence of enormous, even global, opposition (cf. Rev. 11:10).
Did Moses wait for the Temple to be built in order to begin keeping “The Law” for forty years wandering around in the wilderness? No! Israel of the flesh has had 2000 years to rebuild the “Tabernacle of Moses” (Figure 2), as the 10 cubit by 30 cubit ‘tent’ version of Ezekiel’s Third Temple (Eze. 40+). The problem is that Israel of the flesh is ‘blind’ (Rom 11:25) and under the power of the “spirit of stupor” (Rom. 11:8) with eyes to see NOT and ears to hear NOT down to this very day (read Rom 11:7-11 in conjunction with Rom 9:30-32) concerning Israel’s ‘transgression.’ Therefore, Israel of the flesh does not currently have the wherewithal to even realize they are supposed to rebuilt the Tabernacle of Moses to maintain their cleanliness before the Lord God of the Old Testament in the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ. There will be no ‘fulfillment’ of OT or NT ‘Prophecy’ for Israel of the flesh, until the moment Elijah returns to begin restoring ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11) as the “prophet” of Acts 3:19-26, which will include the Tabernacle of Moses ‘and’ Ezekiel’s Third Temple long before Satan, his “son of destruction” (Beast) and their False Prophet even incarnate in this world as men. Most professing Bible experts read Matthew 17:10-11 to say, “Elijah is NOT coming and will NOT restore all things,” rather than simply believe our Lord Jesus Christ at His word!

The reason you and Dr. John Whitcomb see a connection between the ‘last’ two witnesses and Joshua with Zerubbabel is because Joshua is just one of many ‘skins’ (Gen. 3:21) of our father Adam like Moses is the incarnation of his ‘water witness’ (helper) counterpart in the person of our mother Eve (explanation appears here). God sent ‘His’ Only Begotten Son (our Lord Jesus Christ) into the world to save sinners ‘and’ the Lord God (Jesus Christ) formed His “son of God” (Luke 3:38 = Adam) to testify about Him as “The Light” (Gen. 1:3 = John 1:4-9) the very same way. That means that John the Baptist was not only “Elijah” (Matt. 11:14), but “MORE” than a prophet (Matt. 11:9) as the “man sent from God” (John 1:6 = diagram) represented again by our or father Adam. The first witnesses (Adam and Eve) represent the last witnesses (Rev. 11), so that everything done to the final pair (Adam and Eve) is done to their own father and mother, even though all of that will only make sense at the judgment.

Dr. John Whitcomb >> The reason why this will happen during the first half of the seventieth week is that "in the middle of the week,” He [the Antichrist] shall bring an end to sacrifice [zevach = bloody sacrifices] and offering [minchah = non-bloody sacrifices]" (Dan. 9:27). As J. Dwight Pentecost explains, "This expression refers to the entire Levitical system, which suggests that Israel will have restored that system in the first half of the 70th 'seven.'"[2] Antichrist will replace the legitimate, God-honoring Jewish worship system, which only the two witnesses can inaugurate, with his own system, namely, the abomination of desolation (cf. Dan. 9:27b, 12:11; Matt. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 13:14-15). But the Antichrist cannot do this until the 1,260 days of ministry allotted by God to the two witnesses has been completed (cf. Rev. 11:7)."
Dr. Whitcomb is guilty of refusing to place his ‘Two Witness Timeline” within the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram), which is the reason his commentary is all about the 70th week without any regard for the first 69 weeks shown in this diagram. The Tabernacle of David (Adam) was built upon the foundations of the Garden of Eden way back in Genesis 2 in the Dispensation of Innocence where the hearts of the fathers were those of children (see Malachi 4:4-6). That Tabernacle of Adam (David is Adam’s ‘king’ skin like John the Baptist is his ‘priest’ skin and Elijah is his ‘prophet’ skin) is in reality the “Tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18) about to be restored and rebuilt with the coming of Elijah returning to restore ‘all things.’ The diagram timeline shows John the Baptist appearing as the Lord’s ‘messenger/angel’ preparing the way from the wilderness, which represents more of Adam's testifying about “The Light” of Genesis 1:3 and John 1:4-9. However, Israel did not recognize John the Baptist as their father Adam, OR Jesus Christ as the Lord God (Matt 17:12) who formed him (Son of God forming “His” son of God), so that both must come again to restore all things. Jesus Christ received the Holy Spirit (tree of life) from John the Baptist (Adam) in the Jordan River (Matt 3:15-16) representing the “First Veil” of the Tabernacle of Adam/David (diagram) dividing the wilderness (water witness) from the Promised Land (blood and spirit witnesses combined). God has to restore the ‘heavenly’ counterparts to the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven” (Matt. 6:10), before He can even think about Elijah coming to restore any ‘earthly’ Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) during the “times and epochs” period that START (1Thes. 5:1-2) the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Dr Whitcomb is attempting to cram his END of the Age prophecy fulfillments into final years of this “Dispensation of God’s Grace” contained within the “2000 Year Mystery Time” shown in red in all of my Mystery Diagrams, because he (like practically all professing Bible experts) has the “water” (Kingdom) and “blood” (Grace = Christ came in both) aspects of the New Testament mixed together without any veils (First and Second) appearing anywhere in his errant interpretations.

[Continued]
 
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Terral

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Looking at the “Caught Up” diagram again, we can see Peter’s Kingdom Dispensation Church (#1 here), saved by the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1 here) ‘cut off’ (Rev. 20:4), but raised “with us” (in light blue) to rule with Christ for the same 1000 Years that Satan is chained. That is the same time David (Elijah = Adam) is restored as ‘prince’ (Eze. 34:23-25), before he is also ‘cut off’ (Dan. 9:26) to start the final seventy years leading up to the seven years of Jacob’s trouble. Note very carefully that the “Seventy Weeks” (490 years) are contained within the 1000 Year Day of the Lord that ‘started’ with our Mystery Rapture that ‘ends’ when we return with Christ in glory (Matt. 24:30-31 = Col. 3:4) very near the END of the Age still over 1000 years in the future. The “Seventy Weeks” Decree begins the period that Satan’s heavenly authorities (Eph. 6:12) of this darkness start incarnating onto the earth as mere men, which begins the process where the bad guys throw monkey wrenches into David’s Kingdom, until the Messiah (David/Elijah/Adam) is ‘cut off’ about 70 years from the END of the Age. Adam incarnated as Elijah/David to ‘start’ the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (he is in the world even now), but he will return ‘with Eve’ (his helper) yet again with only thirty years to go until the END of the age, which will make both witnesses about the age of John the Baptist and Christ when they appear with great signs and wonders (powers of the original cultivator of the land = powers of Elijah/Adam and Moses/Eve) very near the END of the Age.

We know the time of their END of the Age prophesying is ‘before’ the final Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21, Rev. 7:14 = last 3.5 years), because their work is connected to the ‘second woe’ (see Rev. 11:14) of three woes ‘and’ the third is coming quickly ‘after’ they go up in the cloud (Rev. 11:12) and their enemies watch them. The ascension of Adam (Elijah) and Eve (Moses) leads up to the glorious event when the Kingdom of this world becomes part of something much greater:

“The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord [Jesus is Lord! = Rom. 10:9) and of His Christ (His son of God = Adam); and He (David/Adam = Eze. 37:24-28) will reign forever and ever." Revelation 11:14-15.
The first (Adam) is the last (Adam), which is predicted by Jeremiah, but ONLY if you have eyes from God to see:

'Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob's distress [final 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation], But he will be saved from it. 'It shall come about on that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves. 'But they shall serve the Lord their God (Heaven is Christ’s throne = Isa. 66:1) and David their king (Eze 37:24-28), whom I will raise up for them.” Jeremiah 30:7-9.
Adam (Elijah/David/John the Baptist) is the Lord God’s (Christ’s) anointed “son of God” (Luke 3:38) in the exact same way that Jesus Christ is God’s Anointed “Son of God” ruling over “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) at the very same time. Jesus Christ rules over “His HEAVENLY Kingdom,” while His “son of God” (Adam/David) rules over the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven.” Matt. 6:10. Note the "Lamb" in heaven and David on his earthly throne counterpart here. Place these “Two witness” events (Rev. 11) within the timeframe at the END of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord and everything will begin falling into place within the END of the Age prophecies still over 1000 years in our future. This means that our “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture takes place not just 7 years before the END of the Age, but just about 1000 years contained within the Day of the Lord itself.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Well, that's a lot to consider.

I tend to agree with you about us leaving at the beginning of the 1000 year day of the Lord and not returning until the end of it because that's what the Bible says. (Rev 21)

I also agree with you that the end of the age is when death is destroyed at the end of the millenium because the Bible says that too. (Rev 21)

There's nothing Biblical that leads me to believe the adam and eve thing or placing the 490 years from Daniel within the millenium. Daniel 9 actually says when that 490 years starts and stops.
(I'm not going to discount the possibility, though. There's a lot of people that say it's already fulfilled now)

Biblically, I can see that there is a judgment at the beginning of the millenium and one at the end. Satan leads an army TWICE against the Lord: once at His return and a second time at the end of the millenium.
 
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zeke37

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Looking at the “Caught Up” diagram again, we can see Peter’s Kingdom Dispensation Church (#1 here), saved by the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1 here) ‘cut off’ (Rev. 20:4), but raised “with us” (in light blue) to rule with Christ for the same 1000 Years that Satan is chained. That is the same time David (Elijah = Adam) is restored as ‘prince’ (Eze. 34:23-25), before he is also ‘cut off’ (Dan. 9:26) to start the final seventy years leading up to the seven years of Jacob’s trouble. Note very carefully that the “Seventy Weeks” (490 years) are contained within the 1000 Year Day of the Lord that ‘started’ with our Mystery Rapture that ‘ends’ when we return with Christ in glory (Matt. 24:30-31 = Col. 3:4) very near the END of the Age still over 1000 years in the future. The “Seventy Weeks” Decree begins the period that Satan’s heavenly authorities (Eph. 6:12) of this darkness start incarnating onto the earth as mere men, which begins the process where the bad guys throw monkey wrenches into David’s Kingdom, until the Messiah (David/Elijah/Adam) is ‘cut off’ about 70 years from the END of the Age. Adam incarnated as Elijah/David to ‘start’ the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (he is in the world even now), but he will return ‘with Eve’ (his helper) yet again with only thirty years to go until the END of the age, which will make both witnesses about the age of John the Baptist and Christ when they appear with great signs and wonders (powers of the original cultivator of the land = powers of Elijah/Adam and Moses/Eve) very near the END of the Age.

We know the time of their END of the Age prophesying is ‘before’ the final Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21, Rev. 7:14 = last 3.5 years), because their work is connected to the ‘second woe’ (see Rev. 11:14) of three woes ‘and’ the third is coming quickly ‘after’ they go up in the cloud (Rev. 11:12) and their enemies watch them. The ascension of Adam (Elijah) and Eve (Moses) leads up to the glorious event when the Kingdom of this world becomes part of something much greater:

The first (Adam) is the last (Adam), which is predicted by Jeremiah, but ONLY if you have eyes from God to see:

Adam (Elijah/David/John the Baptist) is the Lord God’s (Christ’s) anointed “son of God” (Luke 3:38) in the exact same way that Jesus Christ is God’s Anointed “Son of God” ruling over “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) at the very same time. Jesus Christ rules over “His HEAVENLY Kingdom,” while His “son of God” (Adam/David) rules over the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven.” Matt. 6:10. Note the "Lamb" in heaven and David on his earthly throne counterpart here. Place these “Two witness” events (Rev. 11) within the timeframe at the END of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord and everything will begin falling into place within the END of the Age prophecies still over 1000 years in our future. This means that our “Pre-Tribulation” Rapture takes place not just 7 years before the END of the Age, but just about 1000 years contained within the Day of the Lord itself.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

no offense dude, but we know what the two witnesses are...

they are the Two Olive Trees and the Two Candlesticks

now discussing who these represent is valid, but we already know for sure that the Candlesticks are the 2 favoured churches of Rev2-3, because God defines them in Rev1 as such...

and we see the 2 Candlesticks(churches) against the beast in Rev11.


many assume that the two witnesses are Elijah(Prophets) and Moses(Law)...or possibly even Enoch, but whether it is them or two others who come in their spiritual likeness, remains to be seen and I do not know if it is possible to say either way.

Neither Enoch or Elijah is reported to have died in the flesh, and no one knows where Moses' body is buried...Satan fought over his actual body...


so we have some choices...but let's stick to the realistic ones...

we know for sure 100%, that 1 of the 2 witnesses are the 2 candlesticks...Smyrna and Philadelphia

the other 1 witness, is speculation, but as John the Baptist was in the spirit of Elijah, not really Elijah returned....the same may be possible for the two olive trees.

in His service
c
 
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Terral

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Hi Zeke:

no offense dude, but we know what the two witnesses are...they are the Two Olive Trees and the Two Candlesticks.

First of all, calling anyone ‘dude’ is offensive and a poor choice of characterizations in any debate over ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word, even if these readers better define ‘you’ by your use of terms. Secondly, quoting my entire post to begin talking about something else is addressing nothing from my work on this ‘two witnesses’ topic. The ‘two witnesses’ (Rev. 11) are not two literal olive trees or candlesticks, but this imagery is used to assist those with wisdom (Rev. 13:18) understand their true identities by their ‘relationship’ to the “Lord of the earth” (Rev. 11:4).

now discussing who these represent is valid, but we already know for sure that the Candlesticks are the 2 favoured churches of Rev 2-3, because God defines them in Rev1 as such...and we see the 2 Candlesticks (churches) against the beast in Rev11.

To assume that “we” (is there a mouse in your pocket?) know anything taught in The Book Of Revelation “for sure” is a bold assertion to say the very least, as if Zeke is the mouthpiece of everyone here. John sees “seven golden lampstands” (Rev. 1:12) and one like the “son of man” standing in the middle of the lampstands (Rev. 1:13). These again are ‘heavenly’ counterparts (true tabernacle = Heb. 8:1-5) with earthly symbols in the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (diagram) part of the “Tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18) restored during the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram). These ‘two olive trees’ (earthly hosts = water witnesses) with their ‘two lampstand’ angelic super-halves represent ‘the first’ (Adam and Eve) and “the last” (Elijah and Moses) joined together in anticipation of their “last days” testimony to “her seed” and “your seed” (Gen. 3:15) leading up to the final Battle of Armageddon just about 1000 years in the future. Elijah gives us a little clue in his first bold statement:

“Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, "As the LORD, the God of Israel lives, before whom I stand, surely there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word." 1Kings 17:1.
The power to shut up the sky ‘and’ bring down the fire of the Lord (1Kings 18:38) ‘and’ cross the Jordan River on a whim (2Kings 2:8) represent just some of the powers of the original cultivator of the land given to the “son of God” (Luke 3:38) in the very beginning. Scripture says,

“These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies (see 2Kings 1:7-15); so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying (1Kings 17:1); and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood (see Exodus 7:17-19, 9:14), and to strike the earth with every plague (see Exodus 9), as often as they desire.” Revelation 11:4-6.
Note very carefully that the “angel/messenger of the Lord” (1Kings 19:7, 2Kings 1:3 = angelic candlestick) is speaking to Elijah (earthly olive tree) in this ‘dual’ relationship that exists between the heavenly and earthly halves making up the ‘same’ Singularity Expression whole. Elijah is the ‘incarnation’ of our father Adam in the same way Moses is his ‘water witness’ counterpart in the person of our mother of all living (Gen. 3:20) Eve. You ‘know’ the ‘two candlesticks’ and the ‘two olive trees’ represent just TWO WITNESSES (Rev. 11) walking around on the earth making trouble for God’s enemies the same way Elijah and Moses have been doing throughout God’s Living Word as Joshua/Moses, Abraham/Sarah, David/Bathsheba, John the Baptist (alone = Eve’s transgression) and the coming “prophet” (alone again = Acts 3:19-26). Satan cuts of Adam’s head (Matt. 14:10) and Adam returns the favor (1Kings 18:40) in a back-and-forth battle that spans Genesis to Revelation, but ONLY if you have eyes from God to see.

many assume that the two witnesses are Elijah (Prophets) and Moses (Law)...or possibly even Enoch, but whether it is them or two others who come in their spiritual likeness, remains to be seen and I do not know if it is possible to say either way.

Your claims of ignorance here make your ‘dude’ assertions above all that more presumptuous about what “we” already know. :0) Scripture says that the Prophets and the Law prophesied until JOHN (Matt. 11:13), because ‘he’ (son of God = Luke 3:38 = diagram) is the ‘spirit witness’ paving “The Way” for the “Son of God” (Christ) to follow behind in ‘water and blood’ (1Jn 5:6-8 = diagram). I ‘know’ the true identities of the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation 11 with 100 percent certainty ‘and’ that the ‘666 man’ (Rev. 13:18) is a ‘heavenly’ man (diagram = on left) representing the evil powers of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12), as the antithesis counterpart to the Heavenly “man” Christ Jesus (1Tim. 2:5 = diagram = under red arrow). You are attempting to write commentary from the interpretations of men, while I am describing the heavenly and earthly counterparts of what God has given me ‘to see’ by His Living Word. However, if you wish to base your explanations on what ‘many assume,’ then that is completely up to you.

Neither Enoch or Elijah is reported to have died in the flesh, and no one knows where Moses' body is buried...Satan fought over his actual body...

Lord-Have-Mercy . . . Enoch is another topic entirely having nothing to do with this topic at all. The ‘body of Moses’ includes everyone baptized into his body (see 1Cor. 10:1-5), as a ‘human’ counterpart to the ‘body of Elijah’ understood only by the Scriptural types. The “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12 = that's us = IN the Lamb under golden arrow) represents the believers in ‘our gospel’ (#2 here) about to receive ‘immortality’ (1Cor. 15:51-55), when their Eve/Moses half is reunited with their Adam/Elijah ‘angelic’ half waiting in the ‘heavens’ (2Cor. 5:1) in anticipation of our Rapture (1Thes. 4:16-17) that 'starts' the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram). There is an olive tree (man/world) water witness counterpart for a candlestick (angel/heavens) greater half for everyone here, but again ONLY if you have eyes from God to see them (diagram). Satan and Michael the Archangel had a dispute over the ‘body of Moses/Eve’ (Jude 1:9), when Christ led captivity captive (Eph. 4:8-10), but the devil was NOT to be chained (Rev. 20:2) during the 2000 Year Mystery Time (diagram) shown in red. Christ Himself will descend with the trumpet of God and the voice of the Archangel (1Thes. 4:16-17), when He comes to gather the members of His “Body of Christ” to start the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (another diagram). There is no Rapture for the “Body of Elijah/Adam,” because that represents the ‘angels’ and the ‘heavens’ counterpart of men walking around incarnate upon the earth. This is the very reason ‘we’ (Body of Christ) shall judge the world (Eve half) and the angels (Adam half) throughout all the ages to come (1Cor. 6:2-3), because those two witnesses of water (men = olive trees) and spirit (angels = candlesticks) represent two halves (like the earth and heavens) of the same Singularity Expression wholes. Knowing where the literal body of Moses has nothing to do with anything, as if God is forgetful about such things.

so we have some choices...but let's stick to the realistic ones... we know for sure 100%, that 1 of the 2 witnesses are the 2 candlesticks...Smyrna and Philadelphia

No sir. Zeke is making assumptions . . . again . . .

the other 1 witness, is speculation, but as John the Baptist was in the spirit of Elijah, not really Elijah returned....the same may be possible for the two olive trees.

Heh . . . “May be possible”?? John the Baptist (priest) is “Elijah, who is to come” (Matt. 11:14) ‘and’ the “prophet” of Acts 3 ‘and’ Joshua (deliverer) and David (king), because all of those are ‘skins’ (Gen. 3:21) for the same ‘messenger/angel’ of the Lord that the Lord God (Christ) formed back in the garden with everyone here (from Noah’s/Eve’s sons) “IN” him. This is the only answer to all the “Two Witness” questions that creates zero contradictions in God’s Living Word . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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thecountrydoc

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I have started a thread titled "The Purpose of Prophecy" as a starting point to unwind the mysteries of prophecy. Here is the link:
http://christianforums.com/t7054728-...-prophecy.html

I will be back a little later with links for two additional new threads that should answer the questions raised.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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zeke37

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Hi Zeke:

Hi Terral...don't know how the posts got mixed up? computer glitch READ 125 AND 128 TOGETHER FOR RESPONSE

First of all, calling anyone ‘dude’ is offensive and a poor choice of characterizations in any debate over ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word, even if these readers better define ‘you’ by your use of terms.

dude is not derogatory at all...not in the least...no offence was meant by it...I apologize to you because you took offense. I grew up on rock and roll, slang...etc.

Secondly, quoting my entire post to begin talking about something else is addressing nothing from my work on this ‘two witnesses’ topic. The ‘two witnesses’ (Rev. 11) are not two literal olive trees or candlesticks, but this imagery is used to assist those with wisdom (Rev. 13:18) understand their true identities by their ‘relationship’ to the “Lord of the earth” (Rev. 11:4).

the two witnesses are the topic, are they not?
I read your post and disagreed...so I responded with what I thought would be edifying information.

and they are not literally olive trees and candlesticks...but those items are defined for us. Candlesticks are defined in Rev1 as the churches...and the 7 candlesticks are even further defined in Rev2-3, 2 being good to go...5 having fault. 2good candlesticks in Rev2-3...2 candlesticks opposing the beast in Rev11.

You aren't suggesting that these candlesticks are NOT the churches, are you?


To assume that “we” (is there a mouse in your pocket?) know anything taught in The Book Of Revelation “for sure” is a bold assertion to say the very least, as if Zeke is the mouthpiece of everyone here.

huh? grow up.

The Candlesticks are defined by God himself...in REV1...why mess with that.

John sees “seven golden lampstands” (Rev. 1:12) and one like the “son of man” standing in the middle of the lampstands (Rev. 1:13). These again are ‘heavenly’ counterparts (true tabernacle = Heb. 8:1-5) with earthly symbols in the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (diagram) part of the “Tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18) restored during the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram). These ‘two olive trees’ (earthly hosts = water witnesses) with their ‘two lampstand’ angelic super-halves represent ‘the first’ (Adam and Eve) and “the last” (Elijah and Moses) joined together in anticipation of their “last days” testimony to “her seed” and “your seed” (Gen. 3:15) leading up to the final Battle of Armageddon just about 1000 years in the future. Elijah gives us a little clue in his first bold statement:

ok then...

The power to shut up the sky ‘and’ bring down the fire of the Lord (1Kings 18:38) ‘and’ cross the Jordan River on a whim (2Kings 2:8) represent just some of the powers of the original cultivator of the land given to the “son of God” (Luke 3:38) in the very beginning. Scripture says,

the plagues of Egypt...representative of the Law (Moses)

Note very carefully that the “angel/messenger of the Lord” (1Kings 19:7, 2Kings 1:3 = angelic candlestick) is speaking to Elijah (earthly olive tree) in this ‘dual’ relationship that exists between the heavenly and earthly halves making up the ‘same’ Singularity Expression whole. Elijah is the ‘incarnation’ of our father Adam in the same way Moses is his ‘water witness’ counterpart in the person of our mother of all living (Gen. 3:20) Eve. You ‘know’ the ‘two candlesticks’ and the ‘two olive trees’ represent just TWO WITNESSES (Rev. 11) walking around on the earth making trouble for God’s enemies the same way Elijah and Moses have been doing throughout God’s Living Word as Joshua/Moses, Abraham/Sarah, David/Bathsheba, John the Baptist (alone = Eve’s transgression) and the coming “prophet” (alone again = Acts 3:19-26). Satan cuts of Adam’s head (Matt. 14:10) and Adam returns the favor (1Kings 18:40) in a back-and-forth battle that spans Genesis to Revelation, but ONLY if you have eyes from God to see.

I disagree....the 2 Olive trees are the two individuals(as in Zec), the two candlesticks are the 2 good churches(Smyrna and Philadelphia), and are the Christians that do not go apostate when the fake Jesus(Satan) gets here claiming rapture. They are strengthened by the Olive Trees who are feeding them the oil to continue to shine....just as in Zec.



Your claims of ignorance here make your ‘dude’ assertions above all that more presumptuous about what “we” already know. :0)

YOU are simply wrong budd! (how's budd?)

Scripture says that the Prophets and the Law prophesied until JOHN (Matt. 11:13), because ‘he’ (son of God = Luke 3:38 = diagram) is the ‘spirit witness’ paving “The Way” for the “Son of God” (Christ) to follow behind in ‘water and blood’ (1Jn 5:6-8 = diagram). I ‘know’ the true identities of the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation 11 with 100 percent certainty ‘and’ that the ‘666 man’ (Rev. 13:18) is a ‘heavenly’ man (diagram = on left) representing the evil powers of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12), as the antithesis counterpart to the Heavenly “man” Christ Jesus (1Tim. 2:5 = diagram = under red arrow).

YOU do not know who they are, for they are not revealed yet. The closest we can say is that two, in the very least, will come in Moses and Elijah's spiritual likeness...and the candlestick are completely slated in stone, in Rev1...defined in Rev2-3 and seen in Rev11.

but I certainly agree with you that the "man" will be a heavenly man, not a human...the fallen angel Satan, cast from heaven to the earth with his own body....coming disguised as an angel of light, pretending to be the returned Messiah...

You are attempting to write commentary from the interpretations of men,

who says? My commentary is from the Bible, actual quotes...not a thought up explanation to try to fit together a puzzle that just won't come to light...there is no pre trib rapture, and since you believe that there is, you will never agree that the candlesticks in Rev1 are the church, nor that they fight the beast in Rev11...even if it is rather plainly stated...

your diagrams do not impress me in the least. I find fault with them....not that you care.

while I am describing the heavenly and earthly counterparts of what God has given me ‘to see’ by His Living Word.

and I guess the rest of us don't have His Living Word to go by...just you?

However, if you wish to base your explanations on what ‘many assume,’ then that is completely up to you.

who said I did? I told you what I believe, strictly from the Word of God,
 
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zeke37

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READ 125 AND 128 TOGETHER FOR RESPONSE
CONTINUED

Lord-Have-Mercy . . . Enoch is another topic entirely having nothing to do with this topic at all. The ‘body of Moses’ includes everyone baptized into his body (see 1Cor. 10:1-5), as a ‘human’ counterpart to the ‘body of Elijah’ understood only by the Scriptural types. The “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12 = that's us = IN the Lamb under golden arrow) represents the believers in ‘our gospel’ (#2 here) about to receive ‘immortality’ (1Cor. 15:51-55), when their Eve/Moses half is reunited with their Adam/Elijah ‘angelic’ half waiting in the ‘heavens’ (2Cor. 5:1) in anticipation of our Rapture (1Thes. 4:16-17) that 'starts' the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram).

OK, let me get this strait...do you believe in pre trib rapture, or post trib, or another....cause it sounded here like you say post trib?

as for all of your sandwiches of Adam/eve/moses/elijah/who ever....it is purely speculation.

There is an olive tree (man/world) water witness counterpart for a candlestick (angel/heavens) greater half for everyone here, but again ONLY if you have eyes from God to see them (diagram).

well, I disagree with you..the candlesticks are the earthly churches who witness against him in the end times...the last few days..., and the olive trees, they are supernatural but will be killed....

Satan and Michael the Archangel had a dispute over the ‘body of Moses/Eve’ (Jude 1:9), when Christ led captivity captive (Eph. 4:8-10), but the devil was NOT to be chained (Rev. 20:2) during the 2000 Year Mystery Time (diagram) shown in red.

who said that? Christ said to Satan"get thee hence"

where is Christ? He is at the right hand of God...

then where is Satan? he is behind him....held by Michael in heaven now...as Rev12 depicts...and will be cast from heaven(with his locust army of fallen angels) to the earth for his short time. 5 months according to Rev9.

Satan is held now...but still can intervene spiritually...but he will be chained for the Millennium...without spiritual intervention, as he can do now...


Christ Himself will descend with the trumpet of God and the voice of the Archangel (1Thes. 4:16-17), when He comes to gather the members of His “Body of Christ” to start the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (another diagram). There is no Rapture for the “Body of Elijah/Adam,” because that represents the ‘angels’ and the ‘heavens’ counterpart of men walking around incarnate upon the earth. This is the very reason ‘we’ (Body of Christ) shall judge the world (Eve half) and the angels (Adam half) throughout all the ages to come (1Cor. 6:2-3), because those two witnesses of water (men = olive trees) and spirit (angels = candlesticks) represent two halves (like the earth and heavens) of the same Singularity Expression wholes. Knowing where the literal body of Moses has nothing to do with anything, as if God is forgetful about such things.

sorry, don't buy what you are selling.....

the reason Moses' body as brought up is because there are some who believe that it will actually be Moses and Elijah come back to earth....It was a possibility and a curiosity...I never claimed that it was going to be Moses...but he is certainly a good candidate.


No sir. Zeke is making assumptions . . . again . . .

where?

Heh . . . “May be possible”?? John the Baptist (priest) is “Elijah, who is to come” (Matt. 11:14) ‘and’ the “prophet” of Acts 3 ‘and’ Joshua (deliverer) and David (king), because all of those are ‘skins’ (Gen. 3:21) for the same ‘messenger/angel’ of the Lord that the Lord God (Christ) formed back in the garden with everyone here (from Noah’s/Eve’s sons) “IN” him. This is the only answer to all the “Two Witness” questions that creates zero contradictions in God’s Living Word . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

when asked if he was Elijah, John answered no....

he was clearly in the spirit of Elijah....

and we also have the mount of Transfiguration to contend with...comparing Malachi

Malachi 4


1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Since there are specifics here as to what Elijah will do, I conclude that this is not fulfilled on the mount of transfiguration...nor in John the Baptist, so it is quite a good possibility that Elijah will return, and that is why he was taken without dying back then....to fulfill his time here...

Same possibility exists with Enoch, as well as a resurrected Moses...(which could be why there was the struggle for the body of Moses)

but the elect shall know Them when they are here, because the elect shall feed of the truth from them...and it will strengthen the elect (of the 2 candlesticks Smyrna and Philadelphia)



your theory is confusing...and God does not author confusion, so....

in His service
c
 
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garry2

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That's what you call "meat" (not milk), ladies and gentlemen...wow.

What amazes me is that everything we would ever want to know is written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms (the Bible)...we just have to seek it and learn from it.

Act 17:11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.



Luk 24:44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
yeah, ...wow
 
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Terral

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Hi Zeke:

Post #129 is a mess in desperate need of a ‘quote’ and Scriptural ‘reply’ for or against my Post #124 offering one way or the other. Try going down to the bottom of the post to select “post quotes” and perhaps someone might be willing to wade through your objections and comments.

OK, let me get this strait...do you believe in pre trib rapture, or post trib, or another....cause it sounded here like you say post trib?

as for all of your sandwiches of Adam/eve/moses/elijah/who ever....it is purely speculation.

That is the exact reply (‘purely speculation’) believers in our gospel receive from unbelievers every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This is the very reason Paul teaches to “walk by faith, NOT by sight” in the first place. All three ‘pre, mid-week and post Tribulation’ Rapture theories are DEAD WRONG and represent the ‘blind leading the blind’ counterfeit doctrines heralded by those among you blinded (2Cor. 4:3-4) by various forms of “Denominationalism.” The truth on this matter is that our mystery (1Cor. 15:51-55) Rapture (1Thes. 4:16-17) takes place 1000 Years ‘before’ any of the “Prophetic” END of the Age events of Christ’s Olivet Discourse (Matt 24:3-31) clearly displayed in these diagrams (here and here and here). Only someone paying NO attention to my statements above could possibly confuse my “1000 Year BEFORE the Great Tribulation” Rapture interpretations with any ridiculous “Post-Tribulation” (after the events of Matthew 24:21) nonsense perpetuated by professing Christians without even a clue. These “Two Witnesses” (Rev. 11) appear some 1000 Years AFTER the “1000 Year Day of the Lord” BEGINS with our Rapture and only AFTER the “Messiah” (David = Eze 34:23-25) is “cut off” (Dan 9:26) about 70 years from the END of the Age. You are living in a dream world, Neo, controlled by the Architect, and have yet to take either the red or the blue pill. :0) Somehow I am betting you will take the blue pill to wake up in your bed believing whatever you wish . . .

well, I disagree with you..the candlesticks are the earthly churches who witness against him in the end times...the last few days..., and the olive trees, they are supernatural but will be killed....

No sir. You do not currently understand the differences between the ‘angelic’ super-halves of the Kingdom Churches (spirit witnesses) testifying throughout the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram) ‘versus’ the “two olive trees/candlesticks” testifying as the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation 11. No sir. I will not go through all of that again. You certainly has a much right to be wrong as anyone here ‘and’ anyone wishing to follow Zeke in his error is encouraged to do so . . . MANY are called, but very “few are chosen” indeed . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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followjesus777

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Thankyou for this wonderful thread to ponder i am enjoying it soo much...moves me to want to pray...

Lord, bring us 'two witnesses' that your 'truth may be established', LET US BE not only 2 but a mighty army for Your purposes, Let Us also BE the 'double portion' like Elisha for you are 'no respector of persons' Lord, Let us also BE the voice of one calling in the desert, let us your voice for the straight the way for the [returning of] the Lord. 'pour out' upon us all flesh of YOUR HOLY SPIRIT AMONGST US, come quickly Lord JESUS Bind us and bring us into all Truth destroy all perversion, deception delusion and strife amongst us in Jesus name amen PRAISE YOUR NAME LORD!~


JESUS is Lord of our hearts amen PTL!~
 
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Carey

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I have read many posts here and some wild stuff in them.

This is so Plain to me .....

Revelations 11 : 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
( I cant wait to see this on CNN people will start paying attention I bet then. )
6These men ( see literally human men )have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.( as often as they want not God wants. These dudes have some power)
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.( only real humans can be killed ) 8Their bodies ( real human bodies seen on CNN ) will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies( on CNN AL Jazeera, FOX etc ) and refuse them burial.( because they will be afraid of their bodies after what they had seen them do when alive)
10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. ( because the anti Christ will make the people believe he killed Aliens or demons probably )
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.( on CNN etc. ) 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
( on every Channel on TV inetrnet and radio by now )
 
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