The Promise Of Eternal Security, How I Know I'm Going To Heaven

Jephunneh · Oct 12, 2002

 

 

THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL SECURITY

"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10:28)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Jn. 3:16)

I know I'm going to Heaven because God has PROMISED eternal security to all who BELIEVE on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. To "believe" on Christ is to "receive" Christ, according to John 1:12. During the spring of 1979, I repented of my sins and received Jesus Christ as my Savior. I had been lost in my sins, condemned to Hell forever (Jn. 3:18, 36). Then a man told me how I could be saved from my sins and from Hell by RECEIVING the Lord Jesus Christ. I received Christ, believing that HE ALONE could save me. I trusted in Him totally, for I knew that He was my only hope. I called upon Him to save me and He did (Rom. 10:13, 9-10). He brought me into God's family as a "son of God" (Jn. 1:12; I Jn. 3:2-3). I was a child of the devil, a child of wrath (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:2-3), but now I'm eternally secure as a child of God.

If I sin as a child of God, then my Heavenly Father will rebuke and chasten me , just as any good father would (Rev. 3:10; Heb. 12:4-8), but He will not condemn me with the world (I Cor. 11:32). God has promised His children ETERNAL SECURITY.

Gerry · Oct 12, 2002

I have started to post many times 101 Scriptural Proofs of Eternal Security, one at a time. But those who insist on losing there salvation have never let me post more than six without flying into a rage, and making such comments as they don't care what the original languages say, they neither speak Greek nor Hebrew, and no matter what the Bible says, they know what they know.

So I quit trying long ago. People may believe as they wish.

GodOwnsMe · Oct 12, 2002

wow...thats something I could really use right now..

!!!
Gerry if you still have those it would be really really cool of ya could send me
those ? be Blessed people

scott · Oct 12, 2002

I think it's part of the sin nature that wants to believe that we can be good enough to earn salvation that also thinks that we could ever be good enough to keep our salvation. Without Gods grace we would all perish. By Gods grace we are saved, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. I would like anyone who thinks you can lose your salvation to explain Phillipians 1:6. We didn't start the work and we won't finish it, it's all by the love of God.
Scott

GodOwnsMe · Oct 13, 2002

gotta love that one

JESUS MY ATTORNEY
*************************

After living a "decent" life, my time on earth came to an end. The first
thing I remember is sitting on a bench in the waiting room of what I
thought to be a court house.

The doors opened and I was instructed to come in and have a seat by the
defense table. As I looked around I saw the "prosecutor." He was a
villainous looking gent who snarled as he stared at me. He definitely was
the most evil person I have ever seen.

I sat down and looked to my left and there sat my lawyer, a kind and gentle
looking man whose appearance seemed familiar to me.

The corner door flew open and there appeared the judge in full flowing
robes. He commanded an awesome presence as he moved across the room. I
couldn't take my eyes off of him.

As he took his seat behind the bench, he said, "Let us begin."

The prosecutor rose and said, "My name is Satan and I am here to show you
why this man belongs in hell."

He proceeded to tell of lies that I told, things that I stole, and in the
past when I cheated others. Satan told of other horrible perversions that
were once in my life and the more he spoke, the further down in my seat I
sank. I was so embarrassed that I couldn't look at anyone, even my own
lawyer, as the Devil told of sins that even I had completely forgotten
about.

As upset as I was at Satan for telling all these things about me, I was
equally upset at my representative who sat there silently not offering any
form of defense at all. I know I had been guilty of those things, but I had
done some good in my life - couldn't that at least equal out part of the
harm I had done."

Satan finished with a fury and said, "This man belongs in hell, he is
guilty of all that I have charged and there is not a person who can prove
otherwise."

When it was his turn, my lawyer first asked if he might approach the bench.
The judge allowed this over the strong objection of Satan, and beckoned him
to come forward.

As he got up and started walking, I was able to see him in his full
splendor and majesty. I realized why he seemed so familiar. This was Jesus
representing me, my Lord and my Savior. He stopped at the bench and softly
said to the judge, "Hi Dad," and then he turned to address the court.

"Satan was correct in saying that this man had sinned, I won't deny any of
these allegations. And yes the wages of sin is death, and this man deserves
to be punished."

Jesus took a deep breath and turned to his Father with outstretched arms
and proclaimed, "However, I died on the cross so that this person might
have eternal life and he has accepted me as his Savior, so he is mine."

My Lord continued with, "His name is written in the book of life and no one
can snatch him from me. Satan still does not understand yet. This man is
not to be given justice, but rather mercy."

As Jesus sat down, he quietly paused, looked at his Father and replied,
"There is nothing else that needs to be done. I've done it all."

The judge lifted his mighty hand and slammed the gavel down. The following
words bellowed from his lips..."This man is free. The penalty for him has
already been paid in full. Case dismissed."

As my Lord led me away, I could hear Satan ranting and raving, "I won't
give up, I'll win the next one."

I asked Jesus as he gave me my instructions where to go next, "Have you
ever lost a case?"

Christ lovingly smiled and said, "Everyone that has come to me and asked me
to represent them has received the same verdict as you, Paid in Full."

-----
sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura Philippians 4:6-8

endure · Oct 13, 2002

see the thing is....
i do not beleive in "eternal security as some people call it.
or the beleif that says "once your saved your always saved"

jephunneh
john 10.28
means that,
salvation brings us to eternal life, it does give us a place in heavon, and we will never die, spiritually die it means, since all souls are immortal anyway and live on in hell or heavon forever.
and no one can pull you away from god. no one can ever force you out of the hand of god. nothing can pull you from him.

but you can still lose your salvation, becuase you can still turn your back on god yourself, just satan fell, adam fell, and judas fell.
you may not say that those men were really saved, but judas was saved, though thats another long debate in itself.
satan not being able to pull you away from god, is not saying that no matter what you cant fall from salvation, and it simply cannot mean that, becuase you werent pulled to god in first place. you chose by your own free will to become a child of god, and it is your own free will that keeps you that way. as it can be accepted, it can be refused, and it can be forsaken.
as we must "abide in him, or else he will not abide in us."

john 3.16
many people say the everlasting life of jesus, would not be everlasting if it could be lost.
but i dont see that at all.
we having everlasting life, is something we obtain after meeting certain conditions of christ. not physical works, but beleiving in him, and letting him become lord and controller of our lives yes.
as that is how we obtain rightouseness rom 10.9-10.
and if we ever fail to meet these conditions anylonger, then we cannot reap the rewards. for we are no longer qualified for the prize.
im not preaching salvation by works, but there are conditions to salvation, as surely as some people are saved, and some people are not, for various reasons that are conditions to salvation.
if one fails to meet the conditions, the gift of eternal life is taken from him. the gift was not destroyed, or damaged in anyway, just removed from the person.

i understand that is jesus that saves us, and we cannot save ourselves, but it isnt all him, he being the power of our salvation, and it not being in our good works, does not mean that salvation requires no cooperation from us.
the fact that the pharisees and many people of jesus' day never got saved, proves that even though its jesus that saves us, and not ourselves, that he does not do it all by himself, it requires cooperation, or else why doesnt jesus save everyone and not worry about our sinful lives? if once were saved, we cant lose it?
then wed all go to heavon, but no, it there is a price to be paid.

just as jesus said in luke.
IF YOU DO NOT DENY YOURSELF, TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME, YOU CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE!
there is no diffrence between a saved person, and a disciple.
becuase in order to be saved in rom 10.9-10 we must make him LORD=CONTROLLER in the greek, of our lives.
cooperation is required, certain acts must be in the life a christian, or you cannot be saved.
it is by no means centered around a one time commitment, or a commitment made at one time. there must be acts of obedience in the lifes of christians, or else you cannot be saved.
you cannot get saved, and then just live anyway you want and remain saved, or in the hand of god. their is a life that is required to be lived if one desires to abide in salvation.
there are conditions to be met, in order to retain eternal life in your possession forever.
it is not being pullled from god, but a forsaking of god, that makes one no longer qualify for eternal life.

1 cor 11.32 is not saying that god wont condemn a person who was once saved.
it is saying that when god judges us, he chastens us, so that we wont be condemned like the world is condemned.
it is not saying in anyway, that a christian cannot lose their salvation, but in fact it is saying that the reason god chastens us, is so that we will not lose our salvation. meaning god is working to stop something that could happen.
but the chastening of god does not have to be obeyed, as the isrealites disobeyed for most of their later lives, and finally made it a lifestyle.
if one does not listen to and obey the chastening of god, then one can and will be forsaken by god.
when god says "i will never forsake you" it is always in light and unity of the obedience that pleased him to make that statement, and depends on the continual obedience of the person. 

it is not a "work for salvation" message that teaches that salvation can be lost. 
it was only by the grace of god, that we can be offered a new life, and be saved.
but jesus taught over and over that being his disciple came with requirements.
it is not goodness of person, that keeps a person saved.
but submission to, and utulization of the power of, the holyspirit.
it is simply a life of obedience that one must have in order to stay saved. it is not saying in anyway that one is good enough to go to heavon without the grace of god.
god had mercy on us and gave us this new chance and way to life. but with this life comes requirements that he enables us to meet 100% of the time if well walk in obedience to him.
if a person turns away from god, and returns to sin, then one must repent of that sin and ask god to save them again, to forgive that sin and again give make them able to be receive eternal life.
as we can always do, since we have an advocate with the father, jesus, just has he had mercy on our past sins before we were saved, he will always have mercy and accept us back to him, but in light our commitment and fullfillment of it to him.
why do we preach that we must ask god to save us and that we must live for him now, if it doesnt really matter how you live?

phil 1.6
yes god will finish the work he started in you, but that requires certain acts of cooperation on your part aswell.
it does not say that there are no conditions to this.

the theology that teaches one can lose their salvation, does not teach that the assurance for salvation is found in how good you are my yourself. but whether or not you allow the lord headway into your life so he can make you good.
no one can be good on their own naturally, for sin reins in our bodies, but when saved the holyspirit seeks to over power that and can if allowed. the acts righteousness found after salvation are not that of the man, but that of the holyspirit, one must simply allow him to do this, one must give their life to his will.  as is what salvation is anyway.
if one does not do this, but refuses to obey the holyspirit and will not submit to him, then he cannot be saved but will lose the gift of eternal life.
it isnt that one must be good after salvation to remain saved, but one must allow the holyspirit to move in their life and make them good.
being able to lose salvation, does not put you in a fearful place.
becuase we know his mercy is everlasting and will always allow us to come back to him. and if one simply fellowships with the holyspirit and follows simple directions of his, we will become righteous and holy.
god births righteousness in us if allowed, and makes us into a righteous being, it is not based on the natural righteousness of the man. but if one refuses, returns to sin, then one cannot be saved.
not becuase god is angry at us, but simply becuase when we are in sin, righteousness is not in us anylonger
romans 6.20
and one must righteous to see god or enter into heavon.

no you cannot be good enough to not need salvation.
but from the moment you get saved, you have the godgiven power of the holyspirit in you to submit to god and follow him in a new found righteousness, anything less is disobedience to god and sin.
becuase you forsook the power and the leading of the holyspirit.
many people do this, and i think we all have, but we repent of that sin, and since god is ever merciful, we can again be saved and recieve eternal life.

some would say that even christians cant live holy, so one could never be saved if it could be lost sense we will always go back to sin by nature, but that is not true according to the word of god.
we are told to live holy, and we are given the power and help of the holyspirit to overcome our past, our sin nature, and our weaknesses, so that we can be holy.
you do not have to be like the omnipotent god, to receive a godly power and live a new lifestyle.
he died for that very reason, that sin would be destroyed, that we would no longer have to sin or do evil.
he died to give us that awesome power so we could recieve eternal life.

Jephunneh · Oct 17, 2002

"see the thing is....
i do not beleive in "eternal security as some people call it.
or the beleif that says "once your saved your always saved" "-endure

Not "some people" call it that, but God, that's what matters.

Keep reading and studing your Bible and you will understand.

Rising_Suns · Nov 8, 2002

good post endure...

Keep reading and studing your Bible and you will understand

Doesn't it say something in your signature about pride? What's make your interpretation better than endure's? Endure humbly disagreed with you..offer him the same jesture please.

Anyway, I belive he's absolutely right. Savaltion is a gift that we must accept..and if we have the free will to accept it, we can reject it. True, we have the holy spirit to empower us, but if the holy spirit isn't yet strong enough in our hearts, the flesh can win and pull us back into our wisked ways...but i do believe that there is a point to which when we have developed our spiritual selves enough, we can no longer be taken back into our old sinfull nature...where that threshold is though, i have no idea...just a thought though.

Jephunneh · Nov 13, 2002

Do you have Scripture for that?

Rising_Suns · Nov 13, 2002

for what.

Gerry · Nov 14, 2002

I see you have added to John 3:16 and demonstrated a lack of understanding of tenses. This verse is in the present tense is it not? So if you HAVE eternal life you clearly cannot lose it because it is ETERNAL! It is a simple matter of understanding how long eternal is!

Either that or as you have implied God did not quite finish writing that verse, and used the wrong tense.

Nevertheless if it pleases you to think you can lose your salvation, then be blessed in your belief.

Originally posted by endure
see the thing is....
i do not beleive in "eternal security as some people call it.
or the beleif that says "once your saved your always saved"

jephunneh
john 10.28
means that,
salvation brings us to eternal life, it does give us a place in heavon, and we will never die, spiritually die it means, since all souls are immortal anyway and live on in hell or heavon forever.
and no one can pull you away from god. no one can ever force you out of the hand of god. nothing can pull you from him.

but you can still lose your salvation, becuase you can still turn your back on god yourself, just satan fell, adam fell, and judas fell.
you may not say that those men were really saved, but judas was saved, though thats another long debate in itself.
satan not being able to pull you away from god, is not saying that no matter what you cant fall from salvation, and it simply cannot mean that, becuase you werent pulled to god in first place. you chose by your own free will to become a child of god, and it is your own free will that keeps you that way. as it can be accepted, it can be refused, and it can be forsaken.
as we must "abide in him, or else he will not abide in us."

john 3.16
many people say the everlasting life of jesus, would not be everlasting if it could be lost.
but i dont see that at all.
we having everlasting life, is something we obtain after meeting certain conditions of christ. not physical works, but beleiving in him, and letting him become lord and controller of our lives yes.
as that is how we obtain rightouseness rom 10.9-10.
and if we ever fail to meet these conditions anylonger, then we cannot reap the rewards. for we are no longer qualified for the prize.
im not preaching salvation by works, but there are conditions to salvation, as surely as some people are saved, and some people are not, for various reasons that are conditions to salvation.
if one fails to meet the conditions, the gift of eternal life is taken from him. the gift was not destroyed, or damaged in anyway, just removed from the person.

i understand that is jesus that saves us, and we cannot save ourselves, but it isnt all him, he being the power of our salvation, and it not being in our good works, does not mean that salvation requires no cooperation from us.
the fact that the pharisees and many people of jesus' day never got saved, proves that even though its jesus that saves us, and not ourselves, that he does not do it all by himself, it requires cooperation, or else why doesnt jesus save everyone and not worry about our sinful lives? if once were saved, we cant lose it?
then wed all go to heavon, but no, it there is a price to be paid.

just as jesus said in luke.
IF YOU DO NOT DENY YOURSELF, TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME, YOU CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE!
there is no diffrence between a saved person, and a disciple.
becuase in order to be saved in rom 10.9-10 we must make him LORD=CONTROLLER in the greek, of our lives.
cooperation is required, certain acts must be in the life a christian, or you cannot be saved.
it is by no means centered around a one time commitment, or a commitment made at one time. there must be acts of obedience in the lifes of christians, or else you cannot be saved.
you cannot get saved, and then just live anyway you want and remain saved, or in the hand of god. their is a life that is required to be lived if one desires to abide in salvation.
there are conditions to be met, in order to retain eternal life in your possession forever.
it is not being pullled from god, but a forsaking of god, that makes one no longer qualify for eternal life.

1 cor 11.32 is not saying that god wont condemn a person who was once saved.
it is saying that when god judges us, he chastens us, so that we wont be condemned like the world is condemned.
it is not saying in anyway, that a christian cannot lose their salvation, but in fact it is saying that the reason god chastens us, is so that we will not lose our salvation. meaning god is working to stop something that could happen.
but the chastening of god does not have to be obeyed, as the isrealites disobeyed for most of their later lives, and finally made it a lifestyle.
if one does not listen to and obey the chastening of god, then one can and will be forsaken by god.
when god says "i will never forsake you" it is always in light and unity of the obedience that pleased him to make that statement, and depends on the continual obedience of the person. 

it is not a "work for salvation" message that teaches that salvation can be lost. 
it was only by the grace of god, that we can be offered a new life, and be saved.
but jesus taught over and over that being his disciple came with requirements.
it is not goodness of person, that keeps a person saved.
but submission to, and utulization of the power of, the holyspirit.
it is simply a life of obedience that one must have in order to stay saved. it is not saying in anyway that one is good enough to go to heavon without the grace of god.
god had mercy on us and gave us this new chance and way to life. but with this life comes requirements that he enables us to meet 100% of the time if well walk in obedience to him.
if a person turns away from god, and returns to sin, then one must repent of that sin and ask god to save them again, to forgive that sin and again give make them able to be receive eternal life.
as we can always do, since we have an advocate with the father, jesus, just has he had mercy on our past sins before we were saved, he will always have mercy and accept us back to him, but in light our commitment and fullfillment of it to him.
why do we preach that we must ask god to save us and that we must live for him now, if it doesnt really matter how you live?

phil 1.6
yes god will finish the work he started in you, but that requires certain acts of cooperation on your part aswell.
it does not say that there are no conditions to this.

the theology that teaches one can lose their salvation, does not teach that the assurance for salvation is found in how good you are my yourself. but whether or not you allow the lord headway into your life so he can make you good.
no one can be good on their own naturally, for sin reins in our bodies, but when saved the holyspirit seeks to over power that and can if allowed. the acts righteousness found after salvation are not that of the man, but that of the holyspirit, one must simply allow him to do this, one must give their life to his will.  as is what salvation is anyway.
if one does not do this, but refuses to obey the holyspirit and will not submit to him, then he cannot be saved but will lose the gift of eternal life.
it isnt that one must be good after salvation to remain saved, but one must allow the holyspirit to move in their life and make them good.
being able to lose salvation, does not put you in a fearful place.
becuase we know his mercy is everlasting and will always allow us to come back to him. and if one simply fellowships with the holyspirit and follows simple directions of his, we will become righteous and holy.
god births righteousness in us if allowed, and makes us into a righteous being, it is not based on the natural righteousness of the man. but if one refuses, returns to sin, then one cannot be saved.
not becuase god is angry at us, but simply becuase when we are in sin, righteousness is not in us anylonger
romans 6.20
and one must righteous to see god or enter into heavon.

no you cannot be good enough to not need salvation.
but from the moment you get saved, you have the godgiven power of the holyspirit in you to submit to god and follow him in a new found righteousness, anything less is disobedience to god and sin.
becuase you forsook the power and the leading of the holyspirit.
many people do this, and i think we all have, but we repent of that sin, and since god is ever merciful, we can again be saved and recieve eternal life.

some would say that even christians cant live holy, so one could never be saved if it could be lost sense we will always go back to sin by nature, but that is not true according to the word of god.
we are told to live holy, and we are given the power and help of the holyspirit to overcome our past, our sin nature, and our weaknesses, so that we can be holy.
you do not have to be like the omnipotent god, to receive a godly power and live a new lifestyle.
he died for that very reason, that sin would be destroyed, that we would no longer have to sin or do evil.
he died to give us that awesome power so we could recieve eternal life.

Rising_Suns · Nov 14, 2002

I see you have added to John 3:16 and demonstrated a lack of understanding of tenses. This verse is in the present tense is it not? So if you HAVE eternal life you clearly cannot lose it because it is ETERNAL! It is a simple matter of understanding how long eternal is!

hey gerry,

To me, "eternal life" refers to the afterlife in heaven. So in other words, once we die and enter heaven, we will then have eternal life. In this reality, we can know that we will have eternal life after we die, but this gift can be lost if we turn from God and deny him. I think differentiating between this life and the next is crucial in understanding how salvation can be lost.

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 14, 2002

Originally posted by Jephunneh
  

 

I know I'm going to Heaven because God has PROMISED eternal security to all who BELIEVE on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

no he didn't.

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 14, 2002

II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary of salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful.

1 Tim. 5:5 - She who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect" have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than a certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation.

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.

1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure.

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 14, 2002

V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace.

Rom. 11:20-22 - we can be in the tree of God's grace by faith in the Messiah, then quit believing and persevering and be cut off.

1 Cor. 9:22,27 - even Saint Paul recognized that he could lose his salvation by choosing wrong. Not every runner receives a prize. If Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why are many Protestant churches so presumptuous to think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:27 - the word "disqualified" that Paul uses comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. This proves that Paul believes he can lose his salvation. Protestants, therefore, who believe in "once saved, always saved" have to argue that "disqualified" cannot refer to being cut off from Christ and salvation. Instead, they argue that "disqualified" only refers to receiving less rewards in heaven. But Scripture disproves their claim:

Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7 - for example, in these verses "adokimos" always refers to those reprobates who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:12 - anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away.

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 - I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ. Paul thus teaches that we can be in Christ, and still fall away from Christ. Once saved, always saved?

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling?

Phil. 3:11-12 - again, Saint Paul acknowledges need to endure to the end and has no presumption of salvation.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we are steadfast.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith." They had the faith, then lost it.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

2 Tim. 4:8 - it is only at end of St. Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. But this is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we must have a moral certitude of salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We can choose to fall away.

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

Heb. 3:12 - take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it.

Heb. 4:6 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away.

Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.

2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.

2 Peter 1:10 - we are all called to God, but we must "work" hard to keep our calling. By grace we participate in our salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (destined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

1 John 2:19 - "they left, but didn't not belong to us" refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.

1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don't shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.

2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.

Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?

Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?

Ezek. 3:20; 18:24 - the righteous can turn away from their righteousness, and their prior good deeds will be forgotten.

Gerry · Nov 14, 2002

Sure, I understand that that is what Eternal Life means to YOU! MAny people obviously agree with you. But that doe not change the tense in which the Word is written.

For example: I John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No matter what we might say that means to us, it is clearly written in the present tense. It says we have it NOW. It does NOT say we might have it one day, or we might get it if we are good and do certain works. It does not refer to acts we may perform or of something that will occur in the future. What it says is that if we believe on the Son we HAVE Eternal Life. Now it seems clear that we we have/possess something ETERNAL it cannot end. If Eternal can end then clearly it is NOT eternal.

We do not have to die to receive this. In fact all these verses (over 100 of them) clearly tell us that as Christians we will NEVER die, but merely pass from from one plane to another, like crossing a river. But if you read carefully the verse listed above you will see that we receive this life(Eternal) when we believe on the Son, but those who do not believe will never see life at all.

No matter how much people seem determined to lose their salvation or how much they may want to HOPE for something they already have, God's Word remains True and God meant what He said. If He did not mean it, then He is tricky indeed and how can He be trusted in any other way.

No I do not believe He is tricky or deceitful or dishonest or incapable of expressing Himself clearly.

But again I say, it is not an issue I will debate. If people are intent on believing something other than what He has written, so be it. We are all free to believe as we wish.

Originally posted by Rising_Suns
hey gerry,

To me, "eternal life" refers to the afterlife in heaven. So in other words, once we die and enter heaven, we will then have eternal life. In this reality, we can know that we will have eternal life after we die, but this gift can be lost if we turn from God and deny him. I think differentiating between this life and the next is crucial in understanding how salvation can be lost.

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 14, 2002

Gerry, you weren't referring to the lists I posted, were you?

Gerry · Nov 14, 2002

I can eat 50 eggs,

As much as I would love to discuss each verse (as well as your version) with you, it is clear that will result in me being branded "unchristian" and having a bad attitude, and as likely as not thrown out of the forums.

The truth is that, that people are entitled to their opinions, whether they are wrong or right. But when this type of teching is posted in a forum where NEW Christians go to seek advice, I am going to speak up and give them what is in my beliefe the right answer, just as you seem intent to do.

Now when they have BOTH sides to the story, they will be able to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead them into Truth. For He is the one who ultimately guides us there.

My heart is filled with love for ALL men because I believe hell is real and I do not wish to see any spend an eternity in such a place. But because I take a hard line stance on Doctrine, I am accused of being the opposite.

Though in my own defense, I point out that Jesus also took a hard line as did Paul. I hope you will understand my motives.

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 14, 2002

Originally posted by Gerry
I can eat 50 eggs,

As much as I would love to discuss each verse (as well as your version) with you, it is clear that will result in me being branded "unchristian" and having a bad attitude, and as likely as not thrown out of the forums.

branded by who?  Not me, Rising suns is a cool headed guy, I've not posted much in this area, but all the mods seem very willing to let thoughtful, courteous discussion take place.

Originally posted by Gerry
The truth is that, that people are entitled to their opinions, whether they are wrong or right. But when this type of teching is posted in a forum where NEW Christians go to seek advice, I am going to speak up and give them what is in my beliefe the right answer, just as you seem intent to do.

 

That's exactly right, I don't believe in OSAS stuff, and feel it necessary to show nec Christians there is another view point out there.

Originally posted by Gerry
Now when they have BOTH sides to the story, they will be able to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead them into Truth. For He is the one who ultimately guides us there.

Amen brother, couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally posted by Gerry
 But because I take a hard line stance on Doctrine, I am accused of being the opposite.

who accuses, not me, I applaud you for standing by your beliefs (even if they are wrong

)

Gerry · Nov 14, 2002

who accuses, not me, I applaud you for standing by your beliefs (even if they are wrong )

Thanks! Means more than you know!

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