God has given me some talent in music so that is the way I try and spread his message.
Whaddya play?
I think it is largely academic.
Yes, and no. There are
three positions of "OSAS", of which "predestined-election" is only one. For a "predestinationist" who is truly saved, it is indeed academic. But think about that term:
"saved predestinationist"---you ask him what makes him saved, and he says, "belief in God, born again by His grace through faith". But on further questioning, you find that he believes "that FAITH-to-savation" is a bequeath from GOD---thus,
TWO dispensations of grace,
CHRIST-ON-THE-CROSS and
UNILATERAL-INSTALLATION-OF-SAVING-FAITH
Here is the problem---throughout Scripture, it is clear that
we believe of ourselves (Rom10:10,17). Yet the Predestinationist contends that BELIEF is
INSTALLED by God! Furthermore, he asserts that
man is FAR TOO CORRUPT to EVER seek God, in ANY measure! ( How then does Jeremiah 29:11 stand?)
Behind all of my posts is the admonishment about the nature of salvation---that it is
fellowship with God & Christ (1Jn1:3,6) If one believes that "salvation is for he who believes",
but "none believe unless DICTATED by God", has he not rejected the Gospel? How wil he be able to grow if he thinks that growth is solely God's responsibility?
How can we preach a gospel to the world, "God wants you to be saved---
but ony if you're one of the PRE-CHOSEN, so you'd better hope you've been SELECTED else you haven't a HOPE!" Do any of us really believe there is no hope for the majority of Humanity?
Just as the "OSAS" facet called, "CARNALITY" (belief that salvation is RELATIONSHIP
apart from fellowship, that one can be SAVED but still sinning willfully, fornicating, carousing, drunkenness,
but WILL walk Heaven's streets), rejects the essence of salvation (and thus cannot be called a "saved belief"), it appears to me that "predestination", also
falls short. In our lengthy discussions I have watched as all of the warnings are relabeled into "hypothetical negative rhetoricals, empty advice against what CANNOT happen, time-wasting-
hyperbole". (Why then were they written, if they are empty?) I have seen passage after passage that speaks of
real, condemning apostasy REJECTED---
"Oh they didn't REALLY fall away, or they were NEVER SAVED in the FIRST place, or they only APPEARED to be saved, ad infinitum. Why must doctrine be subject to veiled and twisted understanding? Would not a book inspired by God, simply construct the truth,
in the simplest terms?
"For God so loved the world, that whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life."
"To as many as RECEIVED CHRIST, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name." ("As you have RECEIVED CHRIST, so walk in Him!")
"Therefore if ANYONE enters through Him, he will go in and out and find pasture."
"For if through the one death reigned through the one, much more those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace AND RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign through Jesus. SO THEN as through one transgression came condemnation to ALL MEN, EVEN SO through one act of righteousness came justification to ALL MEN.
"Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Let O THELOS WHOEVER WILL take of the water of life freely."
"Abide in Me, and I in you; but anyone who does NOT abide in Me is cut off ...as a dried branch and cast into the fire."
"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons."
"See to it that no one takes you captive through empty deceptions and worldly doctrines, rather than according to the principles of Christ."
"Many deceivers have gone into the world; so WATCH YOURSELVES that you do not lose what you have accomplished. ANYONE who GOES TOO FAR and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD!"
"How severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED!"
"Therefore DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE (don't throw away JESUS!)"
"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, and you will insure your salvation and that of those who hear you."
"Take care that there not be found in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. Let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any of you should seem to have come short of it."
"They received a faith the same as ours, having escaped (APOFUEGO) the corruption in the world by llust, though the TRUE KNOWLEDGE (EPIGNOSIS) of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if after having ESCAPED (APOFUEGO) the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE (EPIGNOSIS) of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, they are WORSE than BEFORE they were saved! Far better to have never KNOWN (epiginosko) the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN it, to have TURNED AWAY (epistrepho-ek) from the holy commandment..."
"For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall reign. (But) if we deny Him, He will deny us (and we will NOT reign!)..."
"He who lacks these qualities is blind or shortsighted, having forgotten his purification from former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election---for as long as you practice these things, you will never STUMBLE (ptaio---become wretched)---and in this way the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven will be abundantly provided you."
In light of all these verses (and so many more just like them), how can "predestination" persist? (I've actually heard someone say, about the last "brown-verse" above (2Pet1:1-11),
"Oh the gates of Heaven may not be ABUNDANTLY provided, but they will still BE provided! (Huh?!)
"If man has free will to accept or reject Christ, then Christ's death could have been in vain."
Vice-versa---Jesus died on the Cross for a
reason---His sacrifice, was
EFFECTIVE. But if you believe in "predestination"
then you must DENY that.
"Because we are FORE-CHOSEN, PREDESTINED, His death-on-the-Cross was NOT effective, only DEMONSTRATIVE. It was MERE PAGEANTRY!
His giving man free will would not change the outcome as God's choice is still what controlled it.
The question remains, "did God manipulate Creation, based on His foreknowledge, to determine individuals' eternal destinies?" Scripture clearly says
He did not.
if God gave man free will to accept or reject the offer of salvation, that would somehow mean that God was not sovereign as he would be subject to the whims of man's choices."
This argument is always presented to oppose "free will"---but why not consider, that God, operating sovereignly, can CHOOSE to allow individual man to choose Him or reject Him, thus choose eternity or condemnation? Is that not sovereignly possible? What if God has placed choice before us from the start?
"I have set before you the blessing and the curse, prosperity and adversity, life and death; therefore CHOOSE LIFE, in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, by holding fast to Him..."
Many brilliant minds have debated this for a long time without it being resolved, but you are saved through grace when you believe regardless of your opinion on where the belief comes from, whether OSAS or OSNAS, etc. I'm not sure I said that very well, but hopefully you get my meaning.
You did say it well---but I am puzzled as to why there IS a debate. Scripture is replete with verses
such as the ones I posted above (they were only a small SAMPLE); how can there be a question? Surely those who hold to "OSAS", if belief reigns true in their hearts,
are saved---but I struggle to understand how belief can reign true if the essence of salvation is "missed".
Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Christ and with God. Salvation is "BORN AGAIN", abiding in Him, & His teachings. Salvation must be persevered, abided-in, endured, "keeping ourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to eternal life". Scripture after Scripture warns us to "walk in Him", "put to death the flesh and its sinful desires; if you walk in the flesh YOU WILL DIE; but if you walk in Him, crucifying the flesh daily, YOU WILL LIVE!"
The most puzzling questions, are: "How can it be so clear to me, and not clear to others?" "Why is there such a strong debate"? "Is there something in me that I need to change, that I be able to better communicate?"
Perhaps the answer lies closer to: "I am instructed to admonish my brothers & sisters, to refute with sound and pure doctrine, to strengthen their walk with the Lord; to encourage and never discourage nor weaken; yet there is but one Savior, and in the end I can naught but to LOVE them and to PRAY for them---their walk
is between themselves and their Lord..."
