Who should I consider "not Christian"?

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I read the forum rules, and understand that the definition of "Christian" is by the Niscene Council decree, but I admit that I don't really know enough of other alleged denominations to know offhand whether or not I should consider them Christians or unsaved.

For instance, I'm sure Mormons would tell me they belive the entire Creed, but I've seen them specifically referred to as "not Christians" on this site. I don't know enough about their doctrine to know where they differ, though. I've also heard (other places, not here) Catholics being referred to as "not Christian", for totally different reasons.

Does anyone have a sort of.. well.. like a list, or know of one, so I know how to better relate to people who belong to smaller groups calling themselves Christian? Even one just pertaining to these boards? I'd be very grateful.

~Drought
 

Tinker Grey

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Well I hate to leave your post unanswered so I will give you an opinion.

I'm sure someone would be happy to supply you with a list of denominations that don't agree with the Nicene creed.

However, as to real life, I don't think anyone ought to do any "considering" of who is a Christian and who is not. That is God's judgement and not ours.

This is the practical aspects of what I just said:
  • If someone claims to be a Christian, treat him as a brother. After all we are supposed to love our neighbor, and part of the point of the parable was that not all our neigbors are in the same political or religious camp.
  • Listen to the Holy Spirit as to whether to incorporate their teachings into your faith.
Do not judge them to be not a Christian, however. They may be more advanced in their walk, but you are not ready to hear what they are saying. They may be less advanced in their walk but are not ready for correction (or not available or not under your authority.)

God bless.

Tinker
 
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Anthony

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For instance, I'm sure Mormons would tell me they believe the entire Creed

Mormonism like many other attempts are imitations. While Mormonism has some elements of standard Christianity, they have left many of the basic core beliefs out, and added a whole bunch more. And I don't mean additional interperationa of the Bible, but an additional book (The Book of Morman) which they feel supercedes the Bible. They also have a lot of interest theories and speculations which have become doctrine, such as God has a body of bones and flesh, and he lives on the planet KOLAB.

Also an interesting side note KOLAB is KOBAL the planet from Battlestar Gallactica

 

 
 
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Anthony

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Here is the reference straight from the Mormon/LDS site:

http://scriptures.lds.org/abr/fac_2
"Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, of the residence of God"

http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-53-5,00.html
"He has a body that looks like ours, God's body is immortal"


http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1115-1,00.html
"You live with your Heavenly Father before you were born"

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,810-1,00.html
"Jesus Christ was the creator"

 
 
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Hi,
I suggest that we do not know [any] persons heart! They can, or could be saved in any denomination, OR NONE even. Try Rom. 2:14-15.

We are [accountable] for what we know, and even COULD know! See Hosea 4:6 and Luke 12:47-48 for just a sample.

Now, the question about [any] denomination is another matter. This is what each has got to establish for their own self! And perhaps one needs to start with their own denomination first? See Rev. 18:14 for a life & death matter! And the JUDGEMENT starts with whom FIRST? See 1 Peter 4:17. Read 1 Cor. 11:23-30 for two class of believers. ---P/N/B/
****


Originally posted by Drought
I read the forum rules, and understand that the definition of "Christian" is by the Niscene Council decree, but I admit that I don't really know enough of other alleged denominations to know offhand whether or not I should consider them Christians or unsaved.

For instance, I'm sure Mormons would tell me they belive the entire Creed, but I've seen them specifically referred to as "not Christians" on this site. I don't know enough about their doctrine to know where they differ, though. I've also heard (other places, not here) Catholics being referred to as "not Christian", for totally different reasons.

Does anyone have a sort of.. well.. like a list, or know of one, so I know how to better relate to people who belong to smaller groups calling themselves Christian? Even one just pertaining to these boards? I'd be very grateful.

~Drought
 
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Anthony

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Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
Hi,I suggest that we do not know [any] persons heart! They can, or could be saved in any denomination, OR NONE even. Try Rom. 2:14-15.

I agree; being part of, or a member of any denomination does not mean anything; you must be born-again. Being part of a group of believers is only a plus in your walk upon this earth.

BUT

In order to be a Christian, you have to be aware of, and agree to some basic core accentuals, regardless of what denomination you sit with. I'm sure there are many Mormons who are there for the social benefits the religion affords, but are not aware of the basic beliefs and doctrines of Mormonism. And once upon being told may have issues. Just as there are Jews, Muslims, Catholics, or people who belong to one of the many Protestant sects; who have the label, but not the faith.

Where the rubber meets the road is what do you believe, not what your denonmination is or what it's "Statement of Faith" is. If you are a true Mormon, than the basic core beliefs are in conflict with the Majors tenets of the Christian Faith.


Being saved is a funtion of your faith, a faith in ________ , ___________, __________ . 

How you fill in that blanks is what determine your salvation.

 
 
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You say, BUT??
Perhaps that is what I said ;)
Agreed, there is no way to do what any person does not know to do! Regardless of denomination, right, wrong, or the Eph. 4:5 & Matt. 25 True Virgin [one]! If there was a "Born Again" heart/transplant in the first place? If so, then God requires us to live by 'every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God'! (We can not eat & REMEMBER it ALL AT ONCE!) Chances are that we will make the PROPER transition! John 10:16 & Rev. 18:4.

Here is your word 'But', [If] not?? Then it is an eternal, by, by! (GONE!) That is a fact, see 2 Peter 2:19-22. Notice the Word of promising them "LIBERTY".
Yet the MOTIVE for growing & maturing is what? Now, how could ANY BORN AGAIN BELIEVER mature in the LOVE OF HIS MASTER & do otherwise??? Only by rebellion which is is his free will, "But" or "If" choice. [But], for me and my house we choose to serve the Lord! :clap: :bow: ---P/N/B/
********



Originally posted by Anthony
I agree; being part of, or a member of any denomination does not mean anything; you must be born-again. Being part of a group of believers is only a plus in your walk upon this earth.

BUT

In order to be a Christian, you have to be aware of, and agree to some basic core accentuals, regardless of what denomination you sit with. I'm sure there are many Mormons who are there for the social benefits the religion affords, but are not aware of the basic beliefs and doctrines of Mormonism. And once upon being told may have issues. Just as there are Jews, Muslims, Catholics, or people who belong to one of the many Protestant sects; who have the label, but not the faith.

Where the rubber meets the road is what do you believe, not what your denonmination is or what it's "Statement of Faith" is. If you are a true Mormon, than the basic core beliefs are in conflict with the Majors tenets of the Christian Faith.


Being saved is a funtion of your faith, a faith in ________ , ___________, __________ . 

How you fill in that blanks is what determine your salvation.

 
 
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FOMWatts<><

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Well I'de have to stand my brother Tinker on this one. Though beliefes are plainly extreme, we are NOT to judge , lest we be judged, and I PERSONALLY do not want that at all. The Bible is our tool to teach rebuke and correct, IN LOVE, but not to use as a judgement device. It is God who will distinguish between true Christians and not. We should just follow God's commandment to love one another, and after all...who can mess up God's plan??? I can't!...can you?

FOMWatts<><
 
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spirituality

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Originally posted by Tinker Grey
Well I hate to leave your post unanswered so I will give you an opinion.

I'm sure someone would be happy to supply you with a list of denominations that don't agree with the Nicene creed.

However, as to real life, I don't think anyone ought to do any "considering" of who is a Christian and who is not. That is God's judgement and not ours.

This is the practical aspects of what I just said:
  • If someone claims to be a Christian, treat him as a brother. After all we are supposed to love our neighbor, and part of the point of the parable was that not all our neigbors are in the same political or religious camp.
  • Listen to the Holy Spirit as to whether to incorporate their teachings into your faith.
Do not judge them to be not a Christian, however. They may be more advanced in their walk, but you are not ready to hear what they are saying. They may be less advanced in their walk but are not ready for correction (or not available or not under your authority.)

God bless.

Tinker

AMEN TO THAT! THat is totally true, if someone says and beleive them to be christian, respect it!

Love, Light
&
God Bless
-Spirit
 
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Originally posted by FOMWatts<><
Well I'de have to stand my brother Tinker on this one. Though beliefes are plainly extreme, we are NOT to judge , lest we be judged, and I PERSONALLY do not want that at all. The Bible is our tool to teach rebuke and correct, IN LOVE, but not to use as a judgement device. It is God who will distinguish between true Christians and not. We should just follow God's commandment to love one another, and after all...who can mess up God's plan??? I can't!...can you?

FOMWatts<><

************************
I certainly do not read the Gospel that way. I hope that you reconsider? The true denomination is absolutely held accountable to make right judgements of evil that is SEEN PRINTED OR IN OPEN T.V.'ised TRITE! (daily news & on, & on) See ALL of Joshua 7 & in particular verse 12's last part. I print it, does anyone read it??? (error in know doctrine also is a life & death matter! see Rev. 18:4)

With NO JUDGEMENT of our part will find US ETERNALLY LOST! See Obadiah 16's last part. And any OPEN SIN denomination who leaves this their responsibility undone?? See Rev. 2:5 or Matt. 23:37-38 for an actual case!

In Matt. 16:19 Christ Himself instructs us in doing so! In Matt.18 He again tells us the person, or persons will be 'bound in the kingdom of heaven' (baptism) or 'loosed in the kingdom of heaven' the one or ones who are living in [unrepentant] open sin! (removed from the heavenly record & the denominational books on earth)

And if the [denomination] fails the test of Joshua 7, that told us that Christ, just plain out, will not BE IN HER! (who will then? and if she is powerless because the Master has been put out they will need to go to Caesar for their power! try Rev. 3:9)

In closing, you say not to judge? This is the persons MOTIVE, that Our Master is speaking of! us doing the MIND READING Judgement that we surely would not want to attempt to do [as a Christian] in any case! The way you set, talk, education, Ph. d. this, or Dr. that, rich or poor, or whatever? Even when we might just think that a person is wrong & sineful! BUT NEVER are we tolerate OPEN SIN! (check your news for today)

A couple verses for study? 1 Cor. 5:3-5, try verse 11-13, & 1 Tim. 1:20,
"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, [are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? [HOW MUCH MORE THINGS THAT PERTAIN TO THIS LIFE?]" 1 Cor. 6:1-6.

Lovingly my friend, this lack of responsibility is the trouble with professed Christian's of today! :cry: :cry: ---P/N/B/
 
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ZiSunka

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Anyone who says that there is another way of salvation besides Christ should not be considered a Christian. Anyone who says that everyone is saved, regardless of their faith, should not be considered a Christian. Anyone who says that Christ is not God should not be considered Christian.
 
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FOMWatts<><

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MY MY Pastor N.B.,

You have definetly misread or mis--??something?? of my post, lol. i NEVER said to tolerate open sin or just lauhg things off that are openly and scripturally wrong. When I said do not judge I was referring to things of personal knowledge of salvation and also of personal sin.

Example: If you saw me eating a steak and you thought it Biblically wrong for me to eat it, it is your job as my brother or sister in Christ to approach me , LOVINGLY, and show me where I have done wrong, after that it is then MY job to change and ask God for His forgiveness.

I was referring in my last post to one's PERSONAL salvation...YOU as a brother or sister in CHRIST, have NO RIGHT to say whether or not a person has recieved God's FREE Gift of Salvation. It may very well look as though a person is not saved, and they may not be, but man measures appearances, whereas God measures our hearts and knows them.

You have definelty taken my post the wrong way, and I am very sorry for my lack of clarity, but know full well that I do not think we should ignore "worldly, wrong things" that we know God does not accept.

FOMWatts<><
 
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jesusbball23

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I agree not to judge, but we must still help one another on to see whether we are living as Christian as the bible says...we must help each other live by the bible and if people aren't living by the bible, by Jesus' life style, they aren't Christian. Disciples are called to deny themselves daily and follow Jesus (mark 1:14-18, Luke 9:23-26, Luke 14:25-33). I do not judge here, the BIBLE does (John 12:48). If no Christian is living the life of Jesus, he is not a Christian unless he is struggling big time and needs help regaining his love for Christ.

-But let's help one another on, encourage one another daily (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 12:14-15). We can't say who's a Christian unless the bible speaks.
 
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Originally posted by FOMWatts<><
MY MY Pastor N.B.,

You have definetly misread or mis--??something?? of my post, lol. i NEVER said to tolerate open sin or just lauhg things off that are openly and scripturally wrong. When I said do not judge I was referring to things of personal knowledge of salvation and also of personal sin.

***
P/N/B/ here: Thanks for the clarification. We need two posts anyway to just get started huh? And your example below is worthwhile if you are of another group. (fold) But if the 'example' is OPEN sin (not eating steak) you are still correct. Unless the one refuses correction. One is to love the sinner. But perhaps Matt. 28:20 was NEGELECTED by the Pastor, or that it was that of another matter?
***

Example: If you saw me eating a steak and you thought it Biblically wrong for me to eat it, it is your job as my brother or sister in Christ to approach me , LOVINGLY, and show me where I have done wrong, after that it is then MY job to change and ask God for His forgiveness.

I was referring in my last post to one's PERSONAL salvation...YOU as a brother or sister in CHRIST, have NO RIGHT to say whether or not a person has recieved God's FREE Gift of Salvation. It may very well look as though a person is not saved, and they may not be, but man measures appearances, whereas God measures our hearts and knows them.

***
P/N/B/ here: I can understand & agree with your clarification. But remember what you are saying, about taking the post the wrong way? I took it the way that I thought you were meaning it, so don't read my heart as you say, :)! I agreed with that!

That reminds me of an old friend that I never met. He was the auther of a magizine called the 'Lay Worker' He was educated as a Dr. On the front pg. he had a square at the top of the page caller the bo-bo corner. To my recollection it was his name only, that was ever there. He was one of my favorite people! I look forward to seeing him in the kingdom. He passed away quite some time ago. Of course we never make bo-bo's do we? :).

The point is this, God teaches us Truth, (John 15:20-26 & try Rom. 8:14) and as you say, we are saved by Christ ALONE, and then we are 'led' by the Holy Ghost. (bottom line)
If that does not take place, then we are in trouble! Acts 5:32 (being LED that is)
***

You have definelty taken my post the wrong way, and I am very sorry for my lack of clarity, but know full well that I do not think we should ignore "worldly, wrong things" that we know God does not accept.

***
P/N/B/ here: To be honest friend, your reply is a great way for this 'Christian' forum to be in Unity with TRUTH, :clap: [IF] they will? Otherwise they will not be in the kingdom of God! :cry: So, we see that the Master does have one true fold! See Eph. 4:5-Rev. 18:4 and most important is His Word in John 10:16!

Again, thanks for the Lord's Providential leading! For the two post explain something perhaps that was originally missed by me at least, huh?
***

FOMWatts<><
 
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reeann

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I would have to say, ask the person who Jesus is and what His purpose was. If they say Jesus is Lord and died for my sins, I do not judge that person's heart or walk. I consider them a Christian. We do have some guidelines provided to us.
I think we need to worry less about denomination and ask the person who they say God is.
 
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brotherjim

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Dear Drought,

Interesting you should ask. :) I just posted under "Was Jesus God," namely Posts #10 & #12, some things you may find applicable to your question.

I'm wondering why you would ask this, or want a "list." [Rhetorical thought, though.]

Some denominations are considered not genuinely Christian because:

1) They man not believe in the Trinity of God. (See my remarks under "was Jesus God?")

I believe both Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon's (Church of Latter Day Saints), and what's generically termed "Oneness" churches are this way. I also believe the first two I mentioned do not believe in salvation by Grace alone - through faith in the finished work of Christ upon the cross. This would disqualify them from true Christianity. But some members may still have found the truth and personally experienced genuine salvation. There's no way for any of us to know, unless the Lord specifically and supernaturally reveals it to us for some personal reason (such as if we need to know if the person we intend to marry or go into business with, is truly a believer - but this must be kept confidential between us and God).

I personally do not know which, if any, Oneness churches believe in salvation by Grace alone. (Btw, any belief other than Grace is a disqualifier because it is self-righteousness: someone erroneously believing there's anything whatsoever possible which is considered good enough for an unholy human being to have a relationship with a holy God.)

2) We cannot determine someone's salvation or lack of same by asking them questions and judging their responses. Someone's knowledge of doctrine does not limit God and His Spirit. While we can possibly deduct for certain that some are NOT born-again if they preach an outlandishly opposing doctrine to that of Grace by faith alone, again, only God knows who is and who is not His.

3) Some denominations are judged false because they have added books - as someone else said - and/or extra-biblical revelations which they believe are necessary in order for man to know to be saved, and/or they alone have supposedly ordained-by-God people needed as intermediaries. There is no proof to substantiate these superstitions in scripture, and in fact much to prove they are false Christians.

4) There are also what is called "Mainline," or liberal, denominations. These often started decades or hundreds of years ago as genuine Christian groups, but after the first generation of believers, these were increasingly found to be attended by those who didn't have themselves a born-again experience, but who practice Christianity by the LETTER of the law, and not by the Spirit of it.

In other words, anyone can take the Bible, extract and implement its principles and ordinances to a great extent, and call themselves "Christian." But those who are considered by God to be His true children, have had an instantaneous and supernatural experience, known as the New Birth or being born-again, when they were changed in the spirit realm from something unclean to a child of the Heavenly Father.

We as Christians are warned not to unjustly discern the body of Christ. While some could interpret this to mean we are called to walk in unconditional Love with all and especially the brethren - and this is true, others see in this scripture a warning not to judge someone as not being a true believer because they either don't believe all the pet doctrines we do, or they don't act saved, or they didn't understand what really happened in the Spirit realm when they were saved, etc. The penalty for those of us who so judge is an early death.

I made some add'l. comments on the charismamag.com forum - click on Letters to the Editor, click on "Was Jesus God" topic - that further expound on what I stated here.

But unless you're wanting to get married or otherwise join in some type of partnership with someone, there's no need to worry about any of this. We are commanded to rather make sure our own salvation is sure. If we come accross those who God knows are not saved and who He wants us to witness to, we can trust Him to make that known as He wills and if we're walking in the Spirit and can therefor hear Him.
 
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brotherjim

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P.S. I hope you asked your originally posted question from a pure heart, because shortly after responding to you, as i was preparing dinner, the spirit began to remind me of the many other thought I once had on this subject. It's really an excellent one for the purposes of discussion (although I'm not quit sure how you will be able to use it in dealing with people on a forum).

I was reminded how, even though Presbyterians would be considered by many born-again Christians to be a mainline denomination, if I had lived in or near Chatanooga, TN up until a couple years ago, I would be attending First Presb. there. It's pastor was Ben Haden, a man of God who could preach the real gospel with such compassion and sincerity. (He had the "Changed Lives" TV program.)

I also remembered Ralph Martin. Most of us "Protestant" evangelicals would never consider a Catholic as being saved - merely religious people. But if you surf to the Catholic TV station and catch Ralph Martin, and then send for his free booklet on knowing Jesus, and read it, you cannot deny that he presents the true gospel. Although we perhaps cannot fathom how or why someone who was truly born-again in the Catholic church would stay there, think about how many would not have opportunity to get saved if Ralph Martin didn't remain a Catholic and avail them of the gospel.

And lastly here,&nbsp;I remember how as a young-in-the-Lord believer I would use the following guideline to determine someone's salvation: I would ask them if they were certain of going to heaven, and any response other than the "absolutely positive" would indicate a lost soul. While there's some truth there, there are also those who once did know that they know. So are they later just out of fellowship, or lost (that depends on your pet peeve doctrines,&nbsp;I suppose). Such a response would be an excellent invitation for us to help them regain fellowship and the surety of "His Spirit bearing witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." [para.]

I just love the way God devastates our categories and mixes up our neatly arranged boxes! Praise His Wisdom! Praise Him!
 
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Rick Otto

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I am xCatholic and XProtestant. Now I'm just Christian.
I believe what makes me Christian is my doctrinal stance, which is Reformationist. I think the Nicene Creed is a good thing, but the Westminster Confession is even better.
A basic test of one church was to ask the prospective new member if they are saved. A young man told them "I sure am!"
The next question was designed to reveal if they were in the Arminian heresy.
"Did you have a part in your salvation?" The asked.
"Yes sir." said the young man. "God did His part, and I did mine."
Thinking they might have him pegged as an Arminian, they asked, "And what was your part?"
"Being a miserable sinner, and runnin' away from God as fast as I could!" he said.
They immediately signed him up.
 
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kern

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Originally posted by brotherjim

3) Some denominations are judged false because they have added books - as someone else said - and/or extra-biblical revelations which they believe are necessary in order for man to know to be saved, and/or they alone have supposedly ordained-by-God people needed as intermediaries. There is no proof to substantiate these superstitions in scripture, and in fact much to prove they are false Christians.

Uhhh....care to name one of these 'non-Christian' denominations you're talking about here? I suspect it rhymes with "batholic", but I'll read on:


I also remembered Ralph Martin. Most of us "Protestant" evangelicals would never consider a Catholic as being saved - merely religious people.

Good thing you can speak for "most" Protestants! I was under the impression that most people considered Catholics brothers in Christ (as we consider Protestants to be). I guess I was wrong.


Although we perhaps cannot fathom how or why someone who was truly born-again in the Catholic church would stay there,

I wouldn't lump too many people in with you here -- most people on the boards are not (openly, at least) anti-Catholic.

It sounds like you have the usual misconceptions about Catholicism. Might want to give the FAQ in the One Bread, One Body section a read.

-Chris
 
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