Please forgive if this comes off as a foolish question.

RND · Mar 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
And we've agreed that the law of Moses includes the ten commandments.

Yes, the book of Moses had the TC's in it. Where were the TC's kept and what does this symbolically represent?

Therefore, we must also agree that both Matthew 5 and Luke 24 are referring to all God-given laws, including the ten commandments.

Nope.

Why must these questions be answered in order to understand Matthew 5 and Luke 24?

In order to establish an understanding of what laws pointed to the Messiah and which ones didn't.

Tell me BFA1, if a law did not point to the Messiah was it still a law?

Luke 24 is completely silent on the issue of whether or not laws point to the coming Messiah. You seem to have hand-written that requirement into the text.

Nope. Luke lays out where the prophecies for the coming Messiah are found.

I'm still trying to figure out how one jot and tittle can pass when you claim that not everything has been accomplished.

Which law are you referring to? What law was Jesus referring to?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 20, 2008

RND said:
Yes, the book of Moses had the TC's in it.

Matthew 5 and Luke 24 are saying the same thing. Not one jot or tittle will pass from God-given laws until all has been fulfilled. You cannot pick and choose.

Where were the TC's kept and what does this symbolically represent?

For the reasons already cited, this point is moot.

In order to establish an understanding of what laws pointed to the Messiah and which ones didn't.

Unless there is a Biblical basis for this point, it is moot. You've offered no Biblical basis for this point.

Tell me BFA1, if a law did not point to the Messiah was it still a law?

I see no distinction in Scripture between laws that point to the Messiah and laws that don't, so you're asking the wrong guy.

Which law are you referring to? What law was Jesus referring to?

I make no distinction between old covenant laws, so this is a moot question. The relevance of such questions is contingent upon demonstrating from Scripture that there is such a distinction.

BFA

RND · Mar 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Matthew 5 and Luke 24 are saying the same thing. Not one jot or tittle will pass from God-given laws until all has been fulfilled. You cannot pick and choose.

Sure you can. Which 'laws' pointed to the coming Messiah? Tell us, I'm sure we'll all be captivated, how did the 3rd commandment point to the coming Mesish?

For the reasons already cited, this point is moot.

Nope. Unanswered.

Unless there is a Biblical basis for this point, it is moot. You've offered no Biblical basis for this point.

I've already pointed to the Bible basis. You said: "Why must these questions be answered in order to understand Matthew 5 and Luke 24?"

To you, apparently they don't. But I would be interested in you showing how the 7th commandment pointed to the coming Messiah.

You're on the clock.

I see no distinction in Scripture between laws that point to the Messiah and laws that don't, so you're asking the wrong guy.

Evidently.

Is that because if you knew the distinction it would cause your flimsy house of cards to come crashing down in a heap?

I make no distinction between old covenant laws, so this is a moot question.

See above.

The relevance of such questions is contingent upon demonstrating from Scripture that there is such a distinction.

I've done that already. You've dismissed them as irrelevant. therefore, I'd like to see your dissertation on how each one of the TC's point to the coming Messiah. I've already given you a few examples.

Enthrall us!

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 20, 2008

RND said:
Sure you can. Which 'laws' pointed to the coming Messiah? Tell us, I'm sure we'll all be captivated, how did the 3rd commandment point to the coming Mesish?

Nope. Unanswered.

I've already pointed to the Bible basis. You said: "Why must these questions be answered in order to understand Matthew 5 and Luke 24?"

To you, apparently they don't. But I would be interested in you showing how the 7th commandment pointed to the coming Messiah.

You're on the clock.

Evidently.

Is that because if you knew the distinction it would cause your flimsy house of cards to come crashing down in a heap?

See above.

I've done that already. You've dismissed them as irrelevant. therefore, I'd like to see your dissertation on how each one of the TC's point to the coming Messiah. I've already given you a few examples.

Enthrall us!

I'll be anxiously awaiting your Scriptural evidence that the old covenant laws were meant to be divided into categories. If you look back at my posts, I've asked for it dozens of times. I will await your substantive reply.

BFA

RND · Mar 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
I'll be anxiously awaiting your Scriptural evidence that the old covenant laws were meant to be divided into categories.

This is where that 'reason' thing comes into play. Look, BFA1, I've given you ample evidence of laws that pointed to the coming Messiah and law that didn't, yet were still laws.

If you choose not to recognize that distinction that's up to you.

If you look back at my posts, I've asked for it dozens of times. I will await your substantive reply.

And I've answered you a 'baker's' dozen times!

There is no one particular verse that I can whip out to show you the distinction between feasts and holy days laws that pointed to the Messsiah and laws that didn't that was "evidence that the old covenant laws were meant to be divided into categories."

I'm afraid at this point it's in the hand of the Holy Spirit.

But I can venture to guess BFA1 you would be providing a dissertation as to how the 6th commandment points to the coming Messiah. Or the 3rd. Or the 5th. Or the 10th. Or the 8th. Or the 1st. Or, and especially, the 4th! :wave:

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 21, 2008

RND said:
There is no one particular verse that I can whip out to show you the distinction between feasts and holy days laws that pointed to the Messsiah and laws that didn't that was "evidence that the old covenant laws were meant to be divided into categories."

In fact there are no verses at all that support a division between old covenant laws into separate categories such as "moral laws" and "ceremonial laws." Rather, there is consistently a connection between old covenant laws.

Sadly, many SDAs have subscribed to the human assumption that the sabbath is in a separate category from other God-given laws such as the passover, the day of atonement, the feasts, circumcision and sacrifices. A careful review of the Old Testament reveals that this is human assumption is false.

In Exodus 34, God writes with His own finger His commands and He includes not only the seventh day sabbath, but also the feast of unleavened bread, the passover, the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering.

Similarly, in Leviticus 23, God also groups all of his sabbaths together and refers to all of them as holy convocations. He make no distinction with them whatsoever.

In fact, the inspired writers of Scripture consistently group the sabbaths together with practices that even SDAs believe have been fulfilled. These practices include new moons, holy convocations and festivals, burnt offerings, grain offerings, shewbread, the 7-year rest and frankincense. Please consider for yourself the ways in which the sabbath is grouped together with practices that even SDAs believe are fulfilled:

1. Shewbread and setting out bread

"Some of their relatives of the sons of the Kohathites were over the showbread to prepare it every sabbath." 1 Chronicles 9:32

"This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant." Leviticus 24:8

2. Frankincense

"You shall put pure frankincense on each row that it may be a memorial portion for the bread, even an offering by fire to the LORD. Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel." Lev. 24:7-8

3. New moons

"He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well." 2 Kings 4:23

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon. And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66:23

"Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon." Ezekiel 46:1

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

4. The 7th year rest

"You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Ex. 23:10-11

"During the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard." Lev. 25:4

5. Offerings (Burnt & Grain)

"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly." Isaiah 1:13

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

6. Other sabbaths such as Religious festivals or holy convocations

"'Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:3

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD. 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. For seven days present an offering made to the LORD by fire. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.' The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect, together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil—an offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine. You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live . . . " Leviticus 23

"You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD." Lev. 26:2

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

"Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them." Ezekiel 20:12

"In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths." Ezekiel 44:24

"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies." Hosea 2:11

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col. 2:16-17

Q: Upon what basis should we conclude that either the sabbath or the ten commandments are in a unique class separate from other God-given laws and practices?

Scripture does not support RND's assertion that old covenant laws were divided into categories.

BFA

sentipente · Mar 21, 2008

RND said:
dozen times!

There is no one particular verse that I can whip out to show you the distinction between feasts and holy days laws that pointed to the Messsiah and laws that didn't that was "evidence that the old covenant laws were meant to be divided into categories."

I'm afraid at this point it's in the hand of the Holy Spirit.

Instead of trying to use the Holy Spirit as your enforcer the best approach would be to admit that your position is a manufactured one.

RND · Mar 21, 2008

BFA1, did you 'copy and paste' this artcile or did you write this all by your own hand?

If it is a 'copy and paste' job the least you could do is give credit for whence it came.

Short on time this morning so I'll have to comment on it later.

Byfaithalone1 said:
In fact there are no verses at all that support a division between old covenant laws into separate categories such as "moral laws" and "ceremonial laws." Rather, there is consistently a connection between old covenant laws.

Sadly, many SDAs have subscribed to the human assumption that the sabbath is in a separate category from other God-given laws such as the passover, the day of atonement, the feasts, circumcision and sacrifices. A careful review of the Old Testament reveals that this is human assumption is false.

In Exodus 34, God writes with His own finger His commands and He includes not only the seventh day sabbath, but also the feast of unleavened bread, the passover, the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering.

Similarly, in Leviticus 23, God also groups all of his sabbaths together and refers to all of them as holy convocations. He make no distinction with them whatsoever.

In fact, the inspired writers of Scripture consistently group the sabbaths together with practices that even SDAs believe have been fulfilled. These practices include new moons, holy convocations and festivals, burnt offerings, grain offerings, shewbread, the 7-year rest and frankincense. Please consider for yourself the ways in which the sabbath is grouped together with practices that even SDAs believe are fulfilled:

1. Shewbread and setting out bread

"Some of their relatives of the sons of the Kohathites were over the showbread to prepare it every sabbath." 1 Chronicles 9:32

"This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant." Leviticus 24:8

2. Frankincense

"You shall put pure frankincense on each row that it may be a memorial portion for the bread, even an offering by fire to the LORD. Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel." Lev. 24:7-8

3. New moons

"He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well." 2 Kings 4:23

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon. And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66:23

"Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon." Ezekiel 46:1

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

4. The 7th year rest

"You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Ex. 23:10-11

"During the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard." Lev. 25:4

5. Offerings (Burnt & Grain)

"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly." Isaiah 1:13

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

6. Other sabbaths such as Religious festivals or holy convocations

"'Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:3

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD. 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. For seven days present an offering made to the LORD by fire. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.' The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect, together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oilan offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasing aromaand its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine. You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live . . . " Leviticus 23

"You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD." Lev. 26:2

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

"Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them." Ezekiel 20:12

"In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths." Ezekiel 44:24

"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies." Hosea 2:11

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col. 2:16-17

Q: Upon what basis should we conclude that either the sabbath or the ten commandments are in a unique class separate from other God-given laws and practices?

Scripture does not support RND's assertion that old covenant laws were divided into categories.

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 21, 2008

RND said:
BFA1, did you 'copy and paste' this artcile or did you write this all by your own hand?

Well, I can't take credit for the texts as they are the inspired word of God, but the post was entirely compiled by me.

If it is a 'copy and paste' job the least you could do is give credit for whence it came.

Such accusations do not represent you well. You seem to have me confused with another poster. My post was not copied from the works of another (except for the words of Scripture, which I appropriately cited).

One must wonder why, in the very short time that I have been interacting with you, I have already been accused of so many perceived misdeeds. Please reply substantively with what I've written, and stop making assumptions about my character.

BFA

RND · Mar 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Scripture does not support RND's assertion that old covenant laws were divided into categories.

Sure it does. A health law was certainly different from a ceremonial law and from a civil law. Which pointed to the coming Messiah? Rules on menstruating women or the how's of sacrifcing lambs on passover?

There are no scriptures that make this point clear. This is where God expects us to use the brain he gave us and rewason with the scriptures and to gain wisdom and knowledge of Him through them.

TrustAndObey · Mar 21, 2008

Do we know what denomination BFA is? If our doctrine is laid out for the world to see, I'd like to see what his is.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 21, 2008

RND said:
Sure it does. A health law was certainly different from a ceremonial law and from a civil law. Which pointed to the coming Messiah? Rules on menstruating women or the how's of sacrifcing lambs on passover?

There are no scriptures that make this point clear. This is where God expects us to use the brain he gave us and rewason with the scriptures and to gain wisdom and knowledge of Him through them.

RND, I have offered Scripture. You have offered "the brain." Which approach represents the God-endorsed method for identifying truth?

TAO, I currently attend a non-denominational church. BTW--it's not hard to identify what I believe as I am laying it out for you, along with the Scriptures that lead me to my conclusions.

BFA

RND · Mar 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
RND, I have offered Scripture. You have offered "the brain." Which approach represents the God-endorsed method for identifying truth?

You did. Anyone can quote scripture, or cut n paste articles that they didn't write.

But everything you offered does not prove that there "ISN'T" a division between laws that pointed to the coming Messiah and those that didn't.

Again, I've asked for you to provide exactly how each and everyone of the TC pointed to the Messiah. In that you haven't produced such a dissertation, or more likely can't produce such a dissertation merely proves my point.

The Decologue points us to God's character, not to when or how the Messiah will come. There's a huge difference there and one in which you to ignore.

Geez, even loads of non-Adventist's understand this connection:

"The Ten Commandments served a duel purpose as many contend; they form a covenant between God and his people, and serve as a moral law, or code, by which his people are to live by. However, it should be noted, to achieve the full observance of the Ten Commandments an elaborate system, known as Mosaic Law, was put into place. This Mosaic Law involved a vast legal system of Israel, civil, criminal, judicial, and ecclesiastical framed after the Decalogue. The Mosaic Law was to be a temporary experiment, while the Decalogue was to be permanent."

Sources:

Bowker, John, The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, New York, Oxford University Press, 1997, p. 962

Unger, Merrill F., Unger's Bible Dictionary, Chicago, Moody Press, 1966, Decalogue, pp. 256-257

What makes the above understanding so interesting is that it was on a "occultic" web site! Wierd isn't it where you can find truth?

Even the WCG gets it right:

The Role of the Decalogue in Christian Ethics

So, I'll ask again BFA1, when can we expect your dissertation that shows us all precisely how the TC's point to the coming Messsiah?

Until you can do that it has to be obvious that there is a "clear" division of law.

TrustAndObey · Mar 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
TAO, I currently attend a non-denominational church. BTW--it's not hard to identify what I believe as I am laying it out for you, along with the Scriptures that lead me to my conclusions.

I meant no disrespect BFA. It helps sometimes to know what denomination someone belongs to.

For instance, if a Catholic tells me that I'm not under the law, I ask him what it is exactly that he confesses in a confessional.

That usually leads to "okay, we do have to abide by some laws, but not all of them", which leads to "okay, which ones"....etc etc.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 21, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
I meant no disrespect BFA. It helps sometimes to know what denomination someone belongs to.

For instance, if a Catholic tells me that I'm not under the law, I ask him what it is exactly that he confesses in a confessional.

That usually leads to "okay, we do have to abide by some laws, but not all of them", which leads to "okay, which ones"....etc etc.

No offense taken. And I'm not a Catholic. In fact, my denominational affiliation will provide little clue as to what I believe, so if you're interested in better understanding where I'm coming from, just ask. I'm happy to answer questions.

I believe that the Spirit convicts us with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment. Like you, I believe that sin remains in this world. However, we might differ in that I believe that sin exists even in the absence of law. I know that many SDAs believe that the law is an eternal expression of God's character, and I would not agree.

That's the cliff notes.

BFA

TrustAndObey · Mar 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
No offense taken. And I'm not a Catholic. In fact, my denominational affiliation will provide little clue as to what I believe, so if you're interested in better understanding where I'm coming from, just ask. I'm happy to answer questions.

I believe that the Spirit convicts us with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment. Like you, I believe that sin remains in this world. However, we might differ in that I believe that sin exists even in the absence of law. I know that many SDAs believe that the law is an eternal expression of God's character, and I would not agree.

That's the cliff notes.

BFA

Hey, thanks for that!

You seem like a very reasonable person, and I know RND is, so maybe you two should start over? Sometimes our first impressions aren't always accurate, and unfortunately it does tend to put us on the defensive when someone comes in here telling us we're somehow worshipping God the wrong way, you know?

At the same time, I try to respect the fact that some people really do think they're trying to help us, even if we don't see it that way.

Regardless, we all love the Lord, and we should treat each other like ambassadors. Amen?

Adventtruth · Mar 21, 2008

RND said:
Sure it does. A health law was certainly different from a ceremonial law and from a civil law. Which pointed to the coming Messiah? Rules on menstruating women or the how's of sacrifcing lambs on passover?

There are no scriptures that make this point clear. This is where God expects us to use the brain he gave us and rewason with the scriptures and to gain wisdom and knowledge of Him through them.

And your thumb is not you index finger.

(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Now even your prophet said Galatians was speaking of all law.

AT

RND · Mar 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Well, I can't take credit for the texts as they are the inspired word of God, but the post was entirely compiled by me.

Such accusations do not represent you well. You seem to have me confused with another poster. My post was not copied from the works of another (except for the words of Scripture, which I appropriately cited).

One must wonder why, in the very short time that I have been interacting with you, I have already been accused of so many perceived misdeeds. Please reply substantively with what I've written, and stop making assumptions about my character.

BFA

BFA1, I did not see this post before making my second comment on the topic.

If indeed, as you say, this was entirely a post of your generated content, then I most certainly owe you an apology.

Of course, I still disagree with the content 100% but that's another story.

RND · Mar 21, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Now even your prophet said Galatians was speaking of all law.

Oh, AT I agree that Galatians is talking about the whole law too. In one spot it talks about the Mosaic and in another it talks about the Decologue.

But AT, for goodness sake, you know that even Adventist's disagree as to what law is being talked about in Galatians. I take Mrs. White under advisement, not lock step. Remember, for future reference, I'm an Adventist that doesn't agree she was 100% prophetess. That doesn't mean to say that I don't think God had a hand in her writings.

Adventtruth · Mar 21, 2008

RND said:
Oh, AT I agree that Galatians is talking about the whole law too. In one spot it talks about the Mosaic and in another it talks about the Decologue.

But AT, for goodness sake, you know that even Adventist's disagree as to what law is being talked about in Galatians. I take Mrs. White under advisement, not lock step. Remember, for future reference, I'm an Adventist that doesn't agree she was 100% prophetess. That doesn't mean to say that I don't think God had a hand in her writings.

So what is Gal 3:24? I believe it to be all law. And thanks for telling me about your feelings for EGW.

AT

Please forgive if this comes off as a foolish question.

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