The Baptism thing...

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sbbqb7n16

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I know this thread will probably cause a big debate. I also know that it is not written with the intent of so-doing. This thread provides my thoughts on the subject and the Biblical references I give for my viewpoint. Mainly Acts 16:31-34

It has become my belief that far too many people place too high of an emphasis on being baptised. Of course, God says that we should be baptized. But some say that this baptism is what saves you. My friends why do you think this way? Do you have more faith in the water than in the Blood of Jesus Christ? Is it not the Blood of Jesus that washes away our sins, instead of the water in the local church, river, ocean, etc? You put people down because they say that being baptised is not required to save them. Where are the encouraging words of which Paul commands us? The thief on the cross could not come down to be baptized in water, and yet he was saved. Do you deny this? "It is by grace you have been saved, not by works" The grace of God, not water. The Blood of our Lord Jesus, not water. That is why John the Baptist said "I baptise you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (Matt 3:11) This "water" baptism is for repentance not salvation, only the Blood of Christ can save you. Please encourage others to be baptized and repent, but don't say that will save them. Inform them of the power of the Blood of Christ first that they may believe on His name and be saved. Then inform them of baptism as an obedience thing, to declare their new-found life and for repentance as according to John the Baptist, it was intended.
 

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It's not quite as clear cut as you would make it

II. Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the over 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic.

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means begotten from above. See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism deals with the matter of salvation, not just symbolism.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means s an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic.. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. Regeneration is never symbolic.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean as our bodies are washed with pure water. Baptism regenerates us because it sanctifies our souls.

1 Peter 3:21 - baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, is what actually saves us; it is not just symbolic or superficial like a bath. Also, the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:39-43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise, " He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.
 
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paulewog

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I like the passage in 1st Peter, which I forget the exact reference. It states that the baptism that saves is not "the removal of filth from the body" ... i.e., water. :)

To say baptism is required for salvation... WATER baptism... is unbiblical.
 
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I can eat 50 eggs

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Originally posted by paulewog
I like the passage in 1st Peter, which I forget the exact reference. It states that the baptism that saves is not "the removal of filth from the body" ... i.e., water. :)

To say baptism is required for salvation... WATER baptism... is unbiblical.

A post in the first person?  you feeling ok Paule?

you interpret it to be unbiblical, whether it is or not is very much up to debate.
 
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jesusbball23

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That scripture is 1st peter isn't talking about "water" being unnecessary, rather it's saying water baptism isn't just some cleaning of the physical body, it's saves us by the Resurrection of Jesus.

-Do not take 'not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge<SUP>[1]</SUP> of a good conscience toward God.' because that is just bad interpretation.

-If you read through the whole 1 Peter 3:21, notice how it starts with 'and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also'

1 Peter 3:21 - "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge<SUP> </SUP>of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

Goodluck
 
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Phoebe

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See Acts 19: 1-7.
I believe that unbelief is what condemns a person, but we should be baptized if given the opportunity.
I believe that baptism is God's work, not ours.
I believe that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given at baptism.
I believe that Christ's baptism is different from John's baptism of repentance.
 
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Andrew

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I dun think anyone here believes water baptism is a must to be saved. there was a group -- church of Christ i think? -- that argued here that water baptism was necess but i think they got banned.

even the Catholics here dont believe water bap saves (based on my discussion with VoW) -- they basically believe the same thing protestants do ie. "working out (not for)" your salvation -- which wld include water baptism.
 
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People take baptism lightly, as if Jesus spoke idle words when He gave the great commission. And Peter when the Jews asked "Men and bretheren what shall we do" in Act 2:37-38 were these idle words or did he speak by the Holy Spirit when he gave this answer? If he spoke by the Holy Spirit, the he told them what God said to do and not man. So just think about this before you knock God's answer.
 
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sbbqb7n16

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Oh I definitely believe that there should be a baptism of your spirit by God's power and blood, but I have heard where people say that water baptism is neccessary to be saved. And that without it no one can be saved. That's the mindset I was trying to argue against.
 
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Andrew

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"I have heard where people say that water baptism is neccessary to be saved. And that without it no one can be saved."

Well that's just not truth -- ie by grace thru faith plus water baptism. But real faith produces good works (sooner or later) and one of these works would be water baptism.

Its just like when you get married. You sign the papers, get the Pastor to marry you -- and my oh my you are as married as you can ever be!

But then of course, what is a marriage, where is real love, if you dont consummate the marriage?
 
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paulewog

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Which baptism are people talking about here? Water or of the holy spirit?

I believe you receive the Holy Spirit when you are saved (i.e., are baptised in the Holy Spirit :)). One reason for this is that He is the "seal" ... grr, I keep forgetting that reference, I think it's in Romans... of our salvation.
 
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ZiSunka

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Originally posted by paulewog
Which baptism are people talking about here? Water or of the holy spirit?

I believe you receive the Holy Spirit when you are saved (i.e., are baptised in the Holy Spirit :)). One reason for this is that He is the "seal" ... grr, I keep forgetting that reference, I think it's in Romans... of our salvation.

I believe that the Holy Spirit imbues you when you get saved, not when you are baptized. I didn't get baptized for twelves years after I got saved, but I had many experiences with the Holy Spirit during that time. I know that He was with me and in me.
 
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Buggyman

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I agree that Baptisim doesn't save you. Professing Jesus Christ as your saviour does that. Baptisim is an obediance. When we get Baptise we are showing obediance.

Holy Spirits comes with Savation. Many Like to use the Baptisim of the Holy Spirit as their arguments for&nbsp;this so called special Baptisim. But we are to be reminded that the Penecost was because Those who were saved before Christ was Crucified had Christ with them. Jesus said on his departure.. I will send you a Comforter. And so the Penecost took place..

&nbsp;

JMOO!
Buggy :angel:
 
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Hoonbaba

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Hi sbbqb7n16,

I know I'm a bit late to this discussion, but baptism is not 'works' (of the law)&nbsp;as in Eph 2:8.&nbsp; I know that may sound weird, but baptism is given to a person, it's not something they do (i.e. without a 'baptizer' one cannot get baptized) :)

Also, if baptism is indeed a 'works of the law', then we have a HUGE problem:

(A friend once shared the following with me)

----------------------------------------

If baptism was a "work" as you think it to be (it is not, for Paul was only speaking out against the works of the Mosaic Law), then the act of water baptism nullifies Christ and brings the curse upon men. For concerning "works of the Law", Paul writes:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse (Gal 3:10)

If water baptism was a work as you think that term to mean, then performing water baptism brings people into the curse of God. If baptism into Christ was a "work," then water baptism brings men into bondage:

"But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? Gal 4:9

If water baptism was a work, then it would be among other works that Paul said made Christ of no effect and that removes men from grace:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

If water baptism was a work as you think that to mean, then Paul said water baptism was a "commandment and doctrine of man:

Colossians 2:20-22
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?


If water baptism was a work, then Christ came to PURGE US FROM IT, for it keeps us from serving God:

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


----------------------------------------

Thus, baptism cannot be a 'works of the law', otherwise Jesus would be contradicting his own statement to make disciples and baptize them (Matt 28:18).&nbsp;

Furthermore, baptism does indeed save (1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5).&nbsp; Keep in mind that in the early days of Christianity, professing faith in Jesus and getting baptized were very close together.&nbsp;I posted a little something about this on the Catholic forum explaining the significance of baptism:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/26700.html

I think you'll enjoy it =)

And this page (by a protestant) also has a good (and more eloquent)&nbsp;explanation as to what baptism is all about in the context of our covenant relationship with God and his people:

http://www.laudemont.org/a-bitnt.htm

I hope at least some of this makes sense. :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by Andrew
"I have heard where people say that water baptism is neccessary to be saved. And that without it no one can be saved."

Well that's just not truth -- ie by grace thru faith plus water baptism. But real faith produces good works (sooner or later) and one of these works would be water baptism.

Its just like when you get married. You sign the papers, get the Pastor to marry you -- and my oh my you are as married as you can ever be!

But then of course, what is a marriage, where is real love, if you dont consummate the marriage?

Hi Andrew,

From a Catholic standpoint, that statement is true, yet not true (well sorta).&nbsp;

If a new believer dies before having been baptized, Catholics teach that he or she will go to heaven.&nbsp; They teach 'baptism of desire' which means what really matters is what goes on in the heart.&nbsp; If a believer refuses baptism during their lives, that really makes one wonder:&nbsp; What Christian would absolutely refuse an opportunity to get baptized?

And as I mentioned earlier, baptism is also given by God's grace :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by Phoebe
See John 7:37-39.
What does everyone think of this verse?

Hi Phoebe,

Thanks for sharing that verse!&nbsp; I think verse 39 here is crucial:

37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.


V. 39 seems to explain what 'streams of living water will flow from within him':&nbsp; The Holy Spirit!

Also, compare this:

37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

with this:

17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

Both passages speak of the 'water of life', but notice how it also say the 'spirit and the bride'.&nbsp; We know that the 'bride' refers to the church (Eph 5:23).&nbsp; Now lets take a closer look at this verse:

38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

Notice anything?&nbsp; It says 'whoever believer in me' (which is the church), and that streams of living water will from within him, which (according to verse 39) is a reference to the Holy Spirit dwelling within believers.&nbsp; And we see the&nbsp;close intimate picture&nbsp;between the 'spirit and the bride' in Rev 22:17 :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Andrew

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"I know I'm a bit late to this discussion, but baptism is not 'works' (of the law)_as in Eph 2:8."

No one is saying it is a work of the Law in the sense that you find this water baptism law in Leviticus.

What we're saying is that it becomes like a work (working your way to heaven) when you say that the act of baptism is needed -- in addition to grace and faith -- to be fully saved. IOW The Blood + water -- dilution of the power of the blood.
 
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